Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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we have turned .... and ... into a shelter for our own protection !

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #61
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
It seems to me, more or less, that we define "my problem" in this case as the noisy mind. The divided mind thinks - "I think" - that if it could just observe silently, it might "understand" and solve the problem of "my suffering". Isn't this the process of division at work? --- "me" on the one hand, versus my noisy mind, and then the achieving of a quiet mind in time? But "me" and "my noisy mind" and "my goal" are all part of the same fragmentary process, aren't they?

Hi Huguette. I must say that I don't see things this way at all. Sometimes I pay attention and my senses are sharp. Other times thought is present and I am not at all sharp. When I am sharp my awareness is greater. I think there is only observing and not observing. I don't relate much to "achieving a goal of a quiet mind". Can I respectfully ask if this statement is based on self-observation? Is this something that happens to you?

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #62
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 408 posts in this forum Offline

re 62 and 54:

Sean,

Of course what I say is based on self-observation. What else can it be? I see that when I have a problem that is gnawing at "me" - that the mind is gnawing at - it is “the problem” that the mind concentrates on and this approach of concentrating on the problem does not end the problem. But where there is observation of the process and all that the process engenders, including fear, the problem dissipates without any effort.

You say, “When thought is present our conditioning is present and so we only see or hear partially. Can we simply observe with a quiet mind?” If the mind were to be quiet, what is it that we would be observing? Are we not talking about observing “ourselves”? Isn’t self conditioned thought? Isn’t the conditioning what we want to observe in order to understand it?

Again, why is it that one wants to observe at all? Why is it that one wants to pay attention? What is it that one wants to observe? Why doesn’t one simply accept one’s conditioned state, accept “that we have a very limited view of the world when we see it or hear it through the screen of our conditioning” and carry on with life as it is? What is the nature of this "me" who wants to observe?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Thu, 16 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #63
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
If the mind were to be quiet, what is it that we would be observing?

This question can only arise from a mind which is not quiet ... in a quiet mind there is no perception of an observer ... the observer can only arise with thought ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Thu, 16 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #64
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Again, why is it that one wants to observe at all? Why is it that one wants to pay attention? What is it that one wants to observe? Why doesn’t one simply accept one’s conditioned state ...

Well the answer is very simple: because one is unsatisfied with one's life as it is ... because there is suffering and unsatisfaction ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Thu, 16 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #65
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4906 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Again, why is it that one wants to observe at all? Why is it that one wants to pay attention? What is it that one wants to observe? Why doesn’t one simply accept one’s conditioned state,

Do you mind if I enter into to this conversation?

Most of us are not even aware that we are conditioned, that we are not paying attention. Who among us would have been aware that we are conditioned if K had not pointed it out to us? Maybe for most of us we feel that our natural state, the ordinary state, is this conditioned state that K talked about.

Once someone points out that we are our conditioning, we are a collection of experiences and knowledge, then don't some of us want to look into to that to see if there is any validity to the apparent fact that we are nothing more than our conditioning?

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #66
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
You say, “When thought is present our conditioning is present and so we only see or hear partially. Can we simply observe with a quiet mind?” If the mind were to be quiet, what is it that we would be observing? Are we not talking about observing “ourselves”? Isn’t self conditioned thought? Isn’t the conditioning what we want to observe in order to understand it?

Hi again Huguette. If the mind were to be quiet, what is it that it would be observing? Well, imagine a bird is singing. If the mind were quiet, we could actually hear the birdsong in all its beauty. If the mind is not quiet, then we may even not be aware of the bird singing or maybe aware but not really listening. If the mind is not quiet I would say that we basically miss a lot of what is going on around us.

Huguette . wrote:
Again, why is it that one wants to observe at all? Why is it that one wants to pay attention? What is it that one wants to observe? Why doesn’t one simply accept one’s conditioned state, accept “that we have a very limited view of the world when we see it or hear it through the screen of our conditioning” and carry on with life as it is? What is the nature of this "me" who wants to observe?

Yes, of course we can just accept the chaos that exists both inwardly and outwardly and go and have a nice glass of wine.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #67
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:
In what sense does conditioning limit your view of the world ?

Can we go into this ?

Hi Jean. I think it comes back to looking at a tree. Do I see the tree as it really is or do I see the tree through a conditioned screen of my past knowledge of trees?

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #68
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Once someone points out that we are our conditioning, we are a collection of experiences and knowledge, then don't some of us want to look into to that to see if there is any validity to the apparent fact that we are nothing more than our conditioning?

Hello Jack. Of course I don't mind if you join this discussion. I think your question is a very good one. Are we in fact nothing more than a bundle of experiences and knowledge?

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #69
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
One can even pretend one does not know or think and does exactly what the topic of the thread is:we have turned .... and ... into a shelter for our own protection !

Hi Wim. I deleted my previous reply to this as the quote came out wrongly on my message. However, to be honest, I'm not really sure what you mean here. Who exactly pretends they don't know or think and does exactly what the topic of the thread is? Me? All of us? Why are people pretending in this way?

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #70
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3067 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Once someone points out that we are our conditioning, we are a collection of experiences and knowledge, then don't some of us want to look into to that to see if there is any validity to the apparent fact that we are nothing more than our conditioning?

Plus, K pointed out that this conditioning is what divides man from man leading to the chaos and misery we see nightly on the news. We may feel this in our own daily living as well. W e suffer....our child suffers...our spouse suffers. This is why we want to look into ourselves and the conditioning of our thinking and acting. The way we're living is unacceptable...we don't want to go on living with perpetual conflict/suffering....seeing our children grow up in this insanity....living in a town where we have homeless people begging on the street....where we cant safely walk after dark for fear of violent crime. Naturally we want to change.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 16 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #71
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 408 posts in this forum Offline

re 63:

Huguette . wrote:
If the mind were to be quiet, what is it that we would be observing?

Jean Gatti wrote:
This question can only arise from a mind which is not quiet ... in a quiet mind there is no perception of an observer ... the observer can only arise with thought ...

Exactly. The mind is not quiet but it wants to be. Why? So the mind can only begin where it is, in the condition it is --- that is, noisy, agitated.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #72
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 408 posts in this forum Offline

re 64:

Huguette . wrote:

Again, why is it that one wants to observe at all? Why is it that one wants to pay attention? What is it that one wants to observe? Why doesn’t one simply accept one’s conditioned state ...

Jean Gatti wrote:
Well the answer is very simple: because one is unsatisfied with one's life as it is ... because there is suffering and unsatisfaction ...

So that is the condition the mind finds itself in, isn’t it? It can only start moving from THAT, not from silence.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #73
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 408 posts in this forum Offline

re 65:

Huguette . wrote:

Again, why is it that one wants to observe at all? Why is it that one wants to pay attention? What is it that one wants to observe? Why doesn’t one simply accept one’s conditioned state,

Jack Pine wrote:
Do you mind if I enter into to this conversation?

Most of us are not even aware that we are conditioned, that we are not paying attention. Who among us would have been aware that we are conditioned if K had not pointed it out to us? Maybe for most of us we feel that our natural state, the ordinary state, is this conditioned state that K talked about.

Once someone points out that we are our conditioning, we are a collection of experiences and knowledge, then don't some of us want to look into to that to see if there is any validity to the apparent fact that we are nothing more than our conditioning?

Of course. K or someone else comes along and points out the nature of self, time, fear, sorrow, etc., and that silence, meditation, is necessary to live without suffering, with love, intelligence, compassion, and so on. Then I say that to put all this into action - to end time/self and thus fear and suffering - I must observe myself to see how fear, suffering and conflict arise, how silence is broken, how the mind wears itself out, and so on.

But isn’t the fact that the mind does NOT LIKE to be unoccupied, i.e. silent? The mind craves occupation - it loves being occupied with belief, morality, opinion, desire, conceit, vanity, time, and so on. It’s not just that suffering is psychological noise but also that psychological silence is frightening, isn’t it? As long as its occupations provide pleasure, the mind does not object to being occupied with thought. But it does not love being preoccupied by fear, conflict, contradiction, anxiety, fear, depression, suffering. It wants the pleasant occupations but not the painful agitations. So as it sets out to observe thought, doesn’t it also rebel against being silent? It doesn’t want to be still and, at the same time, it wants to be still, and at the same time it is afraid of not succeeding, not being able to put its “understanding” into action. ALL that - the contradictions, fear, desire, effort - can be observed silently, can’t it?

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #74
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 408 posts in this forum Offline

re 66:

Sean Hen wrote:
Well, imagine a bird is singing. If the mind were quiet, we could actually hear the birdsong in all its beauty. If the mind is not quiet, then we may even not be aware of the bird singing or maybe aware but not really listening. If the mind is not quiet I would say that we basically miss a lot of what is going on around us.

It is a fact, we do NOT actually hear anything fully when thought is constantly agitated. That means the mind itself understands the need for silence which is not forced silence, doesn’t it? It’s not just an idea.

But when the mind WANTS and TRIES to be silent because it understands the necessity, it realizes that it resists, that it can’t. Isn’t there fear in that realization? Isn’t it at such a moment where the division into “me” and silence and thought and fear occurs?

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #75
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 408 posts in this forum Offline

re 66:

Sean Hen wrote:
Yes, of course we can just accept the chaos that exists both inwardly and outwardly and go and have a nice glass of wine.

But we really can't, can we? We would if we could, no? But we are not satisfied with our condition, are we? We are not free.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #76
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 1214 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
If the mind is not quiet I would say that we basically miss a lot of what is going on around us.

Having a 'quiet mind', seeing the tree as it is, hearing the birdsong etc. are 'ideals', like, 'living in the now'...the 'fact' is what we are in each moment, not what we would like to be. The 'pasting over' what we are with the 'ideal' is why we are always in conflict in ourselves. Caught in the process of 'becoming': "I am this, I should be that"...

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 16 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #77
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4906 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
But isn’t the fact that the mind does NOT LIKE to be unoccupied, i.e. silent? The mind craves occupation - it loves being occupied with belief, morality, opinion, desire, conceit, vanity, time, and so on. It’s not just that suffering is psychological noise but also that psychological silence is frightening, isn’t it?

This is a very good point and a very valid point. It appears that the self has to constantly reaffirm itself to feel that it is alive, vital. Silence can a frightening vacuum. We all probably know people who live alone and who run their TV constantly because compete silence appears to unnerve them.

Watching my own thought it seems to often be a collage of remembering "good" things and a projection of good, entertaining and self affirming thoughts into the near and distant future.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #78
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4906 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Are we in fact nothing more than a bundle of experiences and knowledge?

I don't know. That's what K seems to be saying but I can't say that I have independently confirmed that. It is not readily apparent to me what else we might be.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #79
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4906 posts in this forum Offline

Tom I have no argument with what you are saying in Post 70. But it appears to me that instead of acting upon that suffering/separateness that a great many people simply throw up their hands and simply accept what is happening.

Instead of choosing to understanding ourselves we either look to leaders to make changes in our lives or we simply numb ourselves with pharmaceuticals or organized religion. Both, of course, being a narcotic to numb the mind and avoid taking personal responsibility.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #80
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Having a 'quiet mind', seeing the tree as it is, hearing the birdsong etc. are 'ideals', like, 'living in the now'...the 'fact' is what we are in each moment, not what we would like to be. The 'pasting over' what we are with the 'ideal' is why we are always in conflict in ourselves. Caught in the process of 'becoming': "I am this, I should be that"...

Hi Dan. You either listen or you don't. If you don't, you're not going to hear much. I don't know why this has to be so complicated. Too much thinking?

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #81
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
But isn’t the fact that the mind does NOT LIKE to be unoccupied, i.e. silent?

Hi again Huguette. I really don't know about this. When the mind is free of thought it's not unpleasant, is it? It's relaxing to listen to the sounds around you if you're in a pleasant place like by the sea or in the countryside. Thinking seems to be more a thing of habit, a thing we've simply always done.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #82
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

In what sense does conditioning limit your view of the world ?

Can we go into this ?

Hi Jean. I think it comes back to looking at a tree. Do I see the tree as it really is or do I see the tree through a conditioned screen of my past knowledge of trees?

Well Sean, I think we have to be careful here in order to avoid introducing more confusion.

As I see it, 'knowledge' is somewhat different from 'conditioning'. Conditioning refers to a specific 'knowledge' we have about ourselves ie. our 'identities' (like I am Catholic, American, this or that etc) and also of other people who do not share the same identities, and in this sense conditioning limits us to what we think we know about ourselves and so-called 'others'.

While the knowledge of 'outer' objects, like knowing a cat or a tree, cannot be called 'conditioning' stricto sensu. However our knowledge creates indeed a distortion in the way we perceive the outside world, which cannot exactly be called a 'limitation' but rather a 'filtering' or a 'screening' ... because we think we know those objects (tree, cat etc) we don't really SEE those objects any more, we are no more touched by their beauty, by the wonder of their aliveness and beauty ... they become kind of 'dead' objects ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #83
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3067 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
It's relaxing to listen to the sounds around you if you're in a pleasant place like by the sea or in the countryside. Thinking seems to be more a thing of habit, a thing we've simply always done.

Sure, Sean, we all like a nice quiet day at the beach or hiking in the woods or sitting by a mountain stream. But that's not going to help us understand the violence man lives with most of the time, is it? We may feel at peace when relaxing on a hike in the woods, but when we're back at work...or driving home in rush hour traffic with all the pollution and noise...doesn't the stress usually return? Are we at peace in all our everyday relationships....with the spouse, the kids, the boss?

Let it Be

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #84
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 408 posts in this forum Offline

re 81:

Huguette . wrote:

But isn’t the fact that the mind does NOT LIKE to be unoccupied, i.e. silent?

Sean Hen wrote:
Hi again Huguette. I really don't know about this. When the mind is free of thought it's not unpleasant, is it? It's relaxing to listen to the sounds around you if you're in a pleasant place like by the sea or in the countryside. Thinking seems to be more a thing of habit, a thing we've simply always done.

Listening or observing is pleasant sometimes and unpleasant sometimes, isn’t it? Is it pleasant for the mind to be unoccupied when one is NOT in a pleasant place listening to relaxing sounds? Is it pleasant when, as you put it at #26, it wants to observe itself and the world with attention and a quiet mind to learn a great deal. “Putting this into action does seem to give us great difficulty,” you said.

I do NOT want to convince you of anything if it isn’t the case for you. But if we are full of contradictions, picking and choosing among them as suits us in a particular moment, isn’t that part of learning?

I came across the following this morning which seems very relevant to our conversation, looking into the balance between pain and pleasure. I don’t know if it will seem relevant to you:

“There cannot be awareness, that
alertness of mind and emotion, so long
as mind is still caught up in both
pain and pleasure. That is, when an
experience gives you pain and at the
same time gives you pleasure, you do
nothing about it. You act only when
the pain is greater than the pleasure,
but if the pleasure is greater, you do
nothing at all about it, because there
is no acute conflict. It is only when
pain overbalances pleasure, is more
acute than pleasure, that you demand
an action.

Most people wait for the increase of
pain before they act, and during this
waiting period, they want to know how
to be aware. No one can tell them.
They are waiting for the increase of
pain before they act, that is, they
wait for pain through its compulsion
to force them to act, and in that
compulsion there is no intelligence.
It is merely environment which forces
them to act in a particular way, not
intelligence. Therefore when a mind is
caught up in this stagnation, in this
lack of tenseness, there will
naturally be more pain, more conflict.

By the looks of things political, war
may break out again. It may break out
in two years, in five years, in ten
years. An intelligent man can see this
and intelligently act. But the man who
is stagnating, who is waiting for pain
to force him to action, looks to
greater chaos, greater suffering to
give him impetus to act, and hence his
intelligence is not functioning. There
is awareness only when the mind and
heart are taut, are in great
tenseness.”

[from “Total Freedom”, chapter “To Be a True Human Being”]

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #85
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1040 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
But isn’t the fact that the mind does NOT LIKE to be unoccupied, i.e. silent?

It seems so, but is it a fact or is the mind out of its orbit, out of order ?

In a quiet space I replied to Clive:

I think it's a kaleidoscope of energies where the silence sounds through the words and complete the result in the common silence.
So if one of the persons involved is not present in this silence the completion goes wrong.

Clive Elwell wrote in the quiet space:
I am posting here an extract from a talk (4) in Madras, Chenai, 1985. YOu will will see he goes into the relationship between silence and noise.

Now what is silence? Is it separate from sound? Have you enquired into sound? What is sound? There is sound inside your body all the time, the blood going through the veins. They have put a camera inside the body - you must have seen some of those television pictures, how there is pumping. That is noise, that is sound, when the heart is beating that is sound. You can hear another heart beating, that is sound. Right? And the sound of a tree, not when the breezes are dancing with the leaves, not when there is a great wind sweeping through it, but when the tree is very still without a single leaf moving, there is a sound in there. And we create sound all round us. Right? Next door for the last month, or another month, or whatever period they have, there is a noise going on, that's sound. Sound of a voice, the sound of music. You understand? There is sound. Why do we separate sound from silence? Because that is what you want, a silent peaceful mind, brain. And to achieve that you practise, hoping by controlling thought gradually, or eventually or in a year or two you will have complete control of your thoughts, your feelings. And you never have asked, who is the controller? Right? Will you ask that question? I want to control my thought because thought is all the time chasing everything, restless, moving from one thing to another, and I want to concentrate, I want to fix my energy on that page, or on that ledger - how to make it crooked for the government, or the tax payer. I want to concentrate, and I try to focus my brain on that, then thought comes along and says, look, and it goes off, distraction.

[K talks about distraction for a while, and then returns to the issue of silence, below]

So we must go back to the question: what is meditation? It is very easy to mesmerize oneself. Right? To say to oneself, I am achieving, I am getting nearer to enlightenment. The question arises, can there be silence which is part of sound? What we call silence is the ending of sound. Right? The sound being thought, sound being knowledge. Right? You have that silence without any disturbance. Right? And in that silence come upon something extraordinary, tremendous experience of enlightenment, or of great insight into the universe. Right? Isn't that silence related to sound? Or is sound different from silence? Or sound is silence?

Sir, have you listened to sound, not resist it? Not to say, it is ugly sound. An aeroplane passing overhead, thundering, it is a tremendous noise, sound. Lightening. Right? We are noisy, and therefore we are seeking silence. You understand? So we have separated sound, noise from silence, as we have separated death from living. Right? You understand what I am saying? So our brain, our thought rather, is separating all the time. You understand? It is the nature of thought to separate - nationally, religiously, you and I, the most learned, the ignorant - it is the activity of thought which is in itself limited, therefore whatever it does will be limited, will be separative - Jew, Arab, Muslim and Hindu, communist, socialist - you follow? All that implies a constant division. So we have separated silence from sound. Right, do you get it? If you don't separate, which is not seek silence as away from sound, then sound is part of silence. I wonder if you see this. Do you see this?

You see when you seek out silence you are creating disorder. And that disorder you call silence. Order is born out of... it comes into being when disorder ends. Right? To find out disorder first, not seek order, why our lives are in disorder, and to go into it, find out, and so on. When there is that comprehension completely of disorder there is naturally order. Now when you don't separate sound from silence there is order, complete order - like the universe, it is everlastingly in order - sun rises, sun setting, the stars, the beauty of a new moon, the full moon, the whole universe is in order, it is only human beings who are in disorder because they have lost their relationship with nature, they have no beauty. You understand?

So the end of the matter is when there is no self, self-centredness, there is something which is totally orderly and that order is silence and sound, and then there is that thing that man has sought, which is timeless. Unless you do this, all this is verbal nonsense. Unless you put your mind and heart to understand your own life, why you live this way, why you have to go to the office day after day, why you have to quarrel with your wife and husband, the jealousy. All that destroys love, and without love there is no order. And where there is love there is compassion. And where there is compassion there is supreme intelligence. Not the artificial intelligence of a computer, nor the artificial intelligence or powerful intelligence of thought. But when there is that quality of the brain, which has understood the whole business of conditioning and is free, and silence is part of that enormous sound of the universe, and where there is the end of sorrow, there is passion. Compassion is that passion, and it is that intelligence, and then beyond that there is total nothingness.

Madras 1985

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #86
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 408 posts in this forum Offline

re 85:

Isn't it a fact that the mind is in disorder? The mind likes silence, doesn't like silence, likes being occupied, doesn't like being preoccupied, it wants this and not that today and tomorrow it wants that and not this - it seems clear the mind is functioning in disorder.

Extract from Clive's quote from A Quiet Space:

"Order is born out of... it comes into being when disorder ends. Right? To find out disorder first, not seek order, why our lives are in disorder, and to go into it, find out, and so on. When there is that comprehension completely of disorder there is naturally order."

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #87
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
We may feel at peace when relaxing on a hike in the woods, but when we're back at work...or driving home in rush hour traffic with all the pollution and noise...doesn't the stress usually return? Are we at peace in all our everyday relationships....with the spouse, the kids, the boss?

Yes this is exactly what Huguette meant ... it is easy to be at peace in relaxing environment, that's quite another question when being faced with the challenges of life ...

So a very practical question arises:

what is it that could make us feel at peace EVEN in challenging or stressful environments ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #88
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Sure, Sean, we all like a nice quiet day at the beach or hiking in the woods or sitting by a mountain stream. But that's not going to help us understand the violence man lives with most of the time, is it? We may feel at peace when relaxing on a hike in the woods, but when we're back at work...or driving home in rush hour traffic with all the pollution and noise...doesn't the stress usually return? Are we at peace in all our everyday relationships....with the spouse, the kids, the boss?

Hi Tom. I don't know if observing while thought is silent by a mountain stream will help us understand the violence man lives with. You never know, it might. Of course we're all often in stressful situations but surely the important thing is to observe ourseves in these situations. If I get angry, am I aware of this as soon as anger arises or only after the anger has gone? Am I even remotely aware of my reactions? Am I in any way self-aware? These are all questions we can perhaps look into.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #89
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I came across the following this morning which seems very relevant to our conversation, looking into the balance between pain and pleasure. I don’t know if it will seem relevant to you:

Hi again Huguette. Thanks for the quote - of course it's relevant. It's late here in Spain so time to turn in for the night. I hope you have a good day over there in Canada and I look forward to exploring this topic more tomorrow.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #90
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3067 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
what is it that could make us feel at peace EVEN in challenging or stressful environments ?

Nothing. Only understanding what actually 'IS'....the stress/conflict....the conflict in 'me'...has any significance. Anything else is speculation...day dreaming as far as I can see.

Let it Be

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