Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #31
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Sean Hen wrote:

Putting this into action does seem to give us great difficulty. Any thoughts on this anyone?

Wim: No, it is not a great difficulty, if it is a difficulty it sure is "I" working on it,

K: "The difficulty lies in putting what I am saying into action."

So it's 'I'/self that makes it so difficult as Wim indicates. And as 'self' is a fact for man, man(the majority who read K) finds living the teachings to be 'difficult'. Why do we find it so difficult to simply observe ourselves? Observing seems to be the only action needed, but we've been trained to react.....condemn, justify, judge, repress... and observation seems out of reach....something we must make an effort to do.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 14 Mar 2017.

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #32
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Observing seems to be the only action needed, but we've been trained to react.....condemn, justify, judge, repress... and observation seems out of reach....something we must make an effort to do.

No Tom, true observation/seeing cannot be the result of an 'effort' ... it can only happen when all efforts are being released (ie 'let go') ... 'effort' means that 'I' is still operating

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #33
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1046 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Observing seems to be the only action needed, but we've been trained to react.....condemn, justify, judge, repress... and observation seems out of reach....something we must make an effort to do.

Yes Tom,

By making an effort to observe... or not to observe the whole sentence... and picking up the part to ones own purpose is blocking the observance as Krishnaji is talking about.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #34
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
it can only happen when all efforts are being released (ie 'let go'

I don't know that efforts can be released or 'let go', Jean. That would imply someone separate from effort. But they can perhaps be understood....not in the intellectual sense....but seen for what they are....self centered and leading to conflict and disorder in living.

Let it Be

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #35
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

re 26:

Wim Opdam wrote:
Vasanta School Gardens, Auckland New Zealand | 1st Public Talk, 30th March, 1934
"Surely, to understand what I am saying is not very difficult.
The difficulty lies in putting what I am saying into action."

Sean Hen wrote:
Hi again Wim. This another great quote! As far as I can see, what Krishnamurti said was indeed very simple - observe yourself and the world with attention and a quiet mind and you will learn a great deal. Putting this into action does seem to give us great difficulty. Any thoughts on this anyone?

Sean,

In the very moment of listening to what K or another says, we may truly understand, see clearly the facts beyond the words. Such understanding in itself is action, isn’t it? But isn’t this understanding flowering in “a safe environment, peaceful circumstances”?

In a moment of conflict in relationship where someone attacks me, insults me, mocks me, betrays me (and/or vice-versa) and I react with fear, anger, jealousy, where I want to get even, hit back, where is the action of this understanding? There’s no understanding then is there, only immediate escape to the old known “tried-and-true” patterns? Isn’t it in these moments of conflict, in the fire of relationship, that understanding must be “put in action”? Not carrying over the understanding that I “had” yesterday in the quiet surroundings of a dialogue with K or another, but seeing its significance afresh in the moment of challenge. Otherwise the understanding is lost, meaningless, just another idea which is added to our vast collection, no?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 15 Mar 2017.

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #36
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I don't know that efforts can be released or 'let go', Jean. That would imply someone separate from effort.

No Tom, the 'letting go' does not imply an actor ... neither does the 'seeing' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #37
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Isn’t it in these moments of conflict, in the fire of relationship, that understanding must be “put in action”? Not carrying over the understanding that I “had” yesterday in the quiet surroundings of a dialogue with K or another, but seeing its significance afresh in the moment of challenge.

Right, the 'proof of the pudding' is in the relationships ... and the challenges ...

Look in this very forum how some posters who have studied K for decades and start to insult others at the least contradiction ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #38
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 589 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Sean,

In the very moment of listening to what K or another says, we may truly understand, see clearly the facts beyond the words. Such understanding in itself is action, isn’t it? But isn’t this understanding flowering in “a safe environment, peaceful circumstances”?

Hello Huguette. I'm not sure what you mean about understanding flowering in a safe environment, peaceful circumstances. Could you explain that a little more?

I do think what Krishnamurti said is relatively simple - if you go for a walk in a forest, observe with a quiet mind. Observe what is around you without the constant chatter of thought. Look, listen, smell and you'll feel a connection with the abundant life around you. If thought rushes in with its conclusions and interpretations, watch it with attention. Through observation with attention, there is much to be learnt. That is what I understand to be at the core of K's teachings. However, it seems to be difficult for us to do this.

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #39
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I do think what Krishnamurti said is relatively simple - if you go for a walk in a forest, observe with a quiet mind.

It is rather simple to remain quiet when walking in a forest ... what about when challenged in relationships ? ... what about when your father tells you that you are no good ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #40
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1046 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
In the very moment of listening to what K or another says, we may truly understand, see clearly the facts beyond the words. Such understanding in itself is action, isn’t it? But isn’t this understanding flowering in “a safe environment, peaceful circumstances”?

Hi Huguette,

If the understanding is complete the flowering goes on even in difficult situations,
isn't it ??

I know someone who was servire addicted on medicins, he says
that those AAA-figures are in a sense still addicted, because they are in need of confirmation of how good they are doing and proud of their achievements, while he says the joy is in not longer being addicted. And seeing and living in a world where on every corner on various ways addiction is flowering.

He was very keen in pointed how a lot of people have various addictions.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Wed, 15 Mar 2017.

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #41
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

Sean,

Isn’t the forest also a safe environment, peaceful circumstances? Similarly, when I listen to K, there is no immediate environmental assault challenging me to immediate action, prodding my whole consciousness, my past, my knowledge into reaction. Isn’t it relatively easy to observe thought “with a quiet mind” during a walk in the forest or during a friendly dialogue?

Both at 26 and at 38 you say that “putting this [understanding] into action does seem to give us great difficulty”, that “it seems difficult for us to do this”.

So there are the 2 seemingly contradictory facts: “Here” I understand, “there” I find it difficult to act on that understanding. But IS there still understanding if I find it difficult to act on it? Or is it that I have the memory of understanding but not actual understanding? Isn’t understanding in the moment? Can yesterday’s understanding be carried over?

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #42
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

re 40:

Wim Opdam wrote:
If the understanding is complete the flowering goes on even in difficult situations, isn't it ??

The understanding is complete in the moment but, not being material like memory, does it "go on", is it stored?

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #43
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

re 37:

Jean Gatti wrote:
Look in this very forum how some posters who have studied K for decades and start to insult others at the least contradiction ...

Jean,

Do I, do you, do "they" have to look outwardly at others to see contradiction? And will seeing contradiction in others help me deal with my own anxiety, fears, compulsions, and so on? Isn't the essential thing to understand "myself", my own contradictions, my own motives and escapes?

What can I learn from observing others unless, in doing so, I can see my own reflection, a reflection of my own contradictions, confusion, conflicts. No?

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #44
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 589 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Isn’t the forest also a safe environment, peaceful circumstances? Similarly, when I listen to K, there is no immediate environmental assault challenging me to immediate action, prodding my whole consciousness, my past, my knowledge into reaction. Isn’t it relatively easy to observe thought “with a quiet mind” during a walk in the forest or during a friendly dialogue?

Hi again Huguette. I have to say that I don't think it's easy to observe thought with a quiet mind during a walk in the forest or during a friendly dialogue. Thought is constantly chattering away and to be truly aware to the sights, sounds and smells around you in a forest or anywhere else is a great challenge. Here's a relevant quote from Krishnamurti.

Attention is Like a Fire

J. Krishnamurti Talk and Dialogues Saanen 1967 1st Public Talk 9th July 1967

"I do not know if you have ever examined how you listen, it doesn't matter to what, whether to a bird, to the wind in the leaves, to the rushing waters, or how you listen to a dialogue with yourself, to your conversation in various relationships with your intimate friends, your wife or husband. If we try to listen we find it extraordinarily difficult, because we are always projecting our opinions and ideas, our prejudices, our background, our inclinations, our impulses; when they dominate we hardly listen to what is being said. In that state there is no value at all. One listens and therefore learns, only in a state of attention, a state of silence in which this whole background is in abeyance, is quiet; then, it seems to me, it is possible to communicate."

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #45
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

Sean,

I now see that I quite misunderstood you when you said that what K said was indeed very simple. I had understood you to mean that you did understand the need for observation/listening and that this can only be done when the mind is quiet --- but that you lost the feeling for it - the understanding of it - in the midst of the action/relationship of daily life.

I had thought this meant that you understood K in the moment you listened to him. But you’re not saying that are you? You’re saying that although the “message” is simple, you don’t understand it at all. Is that it?

[We can leave it at that if you want.]

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #46
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
What can I learn from observing others unless, in doing so, I can see my own reflection, a reflection of my own contradictions, confusion, conflicts. No?

When you want to see your face you look in a mirror, no ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #47
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
If the understanding is complete the flowering goes on even in difficult situations,
isn't it ??

If ... If ... If ...

There is a French saying "With If's you can put Paris in a bottle"

:-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #48
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

re 46:

Jean Gatti wrote:
When you want to see your face you look in a mirror, no ?

Are you saying then that when you say something like "Look in this very forum how some posters who have studied K for decades and start to insult others at the least contradiction ...", you are looking at your own face?

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #49
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1046 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
The understanding is complete in the moment but, not being material like memory, does it "go on", is it stored?

Hi Huguette,

No, it is not materialized in memory but is ever flowering, flourishing, blossoming ...

That's why Krishnaji was never repeating although essentially still saying the same with ever different wording.

that's also the reason why repeating the same examples is characteristic for those who are talking from knowledge.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #50
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Are you saying then that when you say something like "Look in this very forum how some posters who have studied K for decades and start to insult others at the least contradiction ...", you are looking at your own face?

Some mirrors are distorting reality :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #51
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 589 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I had thought this meant that you understood K in the moment you listened to him. But you’re not saying that are you? You’re saying that although the “message” is simple, you don’t understand it at all. Is that it?

Hello Huguette. I think that you have misundersttod again. I'm saying that being attentive is diffucult. Listening with great attention is difficult. It's really very simple.

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #52
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

re 49:

Wim, I'm certainly not saying there's a right and a wrong answer to this question of understanding. But can the mind which completely understands something ever say, "I have now understood it once and for all"? Must one not be alert, watchful, to see whether thought is creeping in to corrupt understanding?

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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #53
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

re 26:

Sean Hen wrote:
As far as I can see, what Krishnamurti said was indeed very simple - observe yourself and the world with attention and a quiet mind and you will learn a great deal. Putting this into action does seem to give us great difficulty.

re 51:

Sean Hen wrote:
I think that you have misundersttod again. I'm saying that being attentive is diffucult. Listening with great attention is difficult. It's really very simple.

Sean,

If I may ask respectfully, if listening with great attention is difficult, if it is a problem of sorts, why does one want to do it?

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #54
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 589 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Sean,

If I may ask respectfully, if listening with great attention is difficult, if it is a problem of sorts, why does one want to do it?

Hello Huguette. Thanks for asking this interesting question.

I think we know that we have a very limited view of the world when we see it or hear it through the screen of our conditioning. When thought is present our conditioning is present and so we only see or hear partially. Can we simply observe with a quiet mind? I think we have to try this out for ourselves. Perhaps you do this and you find it very easy. Is this the case? From my own observations, this is not easy but it is something that I can experiment with at any time by bringing my attention to what is going on around me. I think it's actually a good thing to listen as there is a chance of learning something new.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #55
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I think we know that we have a very limited view of the world when we see it or hear it through the screen of our conditioning

What do you mean by a "limited view of the world" ?

Is the conditioning limiting your 'view of the world' ? ... or is it limiting your view of yourself ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Thu, 16 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #56
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1046 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
But can the mind which completely understands something ever say,
"I have now understood it once and for all"? Must one not be alert,
watchful, to see whether thought is creeping in to corrupt understanding?

Huguette
What kind of mind could say this, isn't it the particular mind, the mind of concluding,
of collecting in other words; the mind which is in use by the ego ?

Must one not be alert, watchful, to see whether thought is creeping in
to corrupt understanding ?

so a mind which is fully available (empty, silent) is always watchfull,
alert for what's going on, going around !!

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #57
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 589 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
What do you mean by a "limited view of the world" ?

Is the conditioning limiting your 'view of the world' ? ... or is it limiting your view of yourself ?

Hi Jean, I would say that one's conditioning limits and distorts one's view of everything. I may think that I am an open person who listens well but is that really the case? I may think that my boss is dishonest but is that true or is it an image? I may think that Helsinki is in Belgium but is it really?

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #58
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Hi Jean, I would say that one's conditioning limits and distorts one's view of everything.

In what sense does conditioning limit your view of the world ?

Can we go into this ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #59
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1046 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I would say that one's conditioning limits and distorts one's view of everything. I may think that I am an open person who listens well but is that really the case? I may think that my boss is dishonest but is that true or is it an image? I may think that Helsinki is in Belgium but is it really?

HI Sean,

One can even pretend one does not know or think and does exactly what the topic of the thread is:we have turned .... and ... into a shelter for our own protection !

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #60
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

re 54:

Sean Hen wrote:
I think we know that we have a very limited view of the world when we see it or hear it through the screen of our conditioning. When thought is present our conditioning is present and so we only see or hear partially. Can we simply observe with a quiet mind? I think we have to try this out for ourselves. Perhaps you do this and you find it very easy. Is this the case? From my own observations, this is not easy but it is something that I can experiment with at any time by bringing my attention to what is going on around me. I think it's actually a good thing to listen as there is a chance of learning something new.

Sean,

I don't find it easy at all. It occurred to me that my previous post was incomplete and I was going to expand on it anyway but you had already responded.

It seems to me, more or less, that we define "my problem" in this case as the noisy mind. The divided mind thinks - "I think" - that if it could just observe silently, it might "understand" and solve the problem of "my suffering". Isn't this the process of division at work? --- "me" on the one hand, versus my noisy mind, and then the achieving of a quiet mind in time? But "me" and "my noisy mind" and "my goal" are all part of the same fragmentary process, aren't they?

Whatever the problem is that I am facing, the mind has created a duality. Isn't THAT process of division the root of the problem? The problem might be that my wife or husband or child disrespects me and I think that I can solve the problem of their unkindness to me by proving to them how unfair, how unkind, they are. Or my colleague might constantly get on my nerves and I think that if I can prove to her how annoying she is, I will shut her up once and for all and solve the problem of being irritated by her. Or danger - a bad guy or monster - is pursuing me in my nightmare and I must flee .....

In ALL of it, the process of division is operating in the mind, isn't it? There are not 2 or 3 or 4 parts to the problem - no me, and the problem, and my efforts to resolve it, and the eventual resolution - there is only the agitated mind straining against itself right now. No?

In the case of observation being impeded by psychological noise, isn't the mind saying "if only my mind would be quiet, I could observe and understand and end my suffering, but I just can't do it ... maybe if I keep trying, it will eventually happen"? That is, it has delineated the problem as being the psychological noise, hasn't it? Artificial division is created - between "me", "noise", "my efforts", as well as "eventually overcoming it", isn't it? Can the mind observe this whole conflictual process without concentrating on one part of it - the noise in this case - as being the problem?

Doesn't such global observation immediately end the divisions, the conflict, the problem of observing quietly? There are no actual parts fighting each other, only a unitary process in operation creating the illusion of parts, no? "I" don't have to observe silently. The mind can observe the whole repetitive process - the noise, the desire to be silent, the resistance to it, the efforts to overcome the resistance, the hope that eventually I will get it, the fear that I won't, the feeling that there is something "I" am doing wrong - can't it? Then isn't that observation of the total movement, of the entire process ... silent?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Thu, 16 Mar 2017.

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