Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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we have turned .... and ... into a shelter for our own protection !

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Sat, 11 Mar 2017 #1
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1006 posts in this forum Offline

Rio De Janeiro, Brazil | 3rd Public Talk 4th May, 1935

Question: You seem to deny the value of discipline and moral standards.
Will not life be a chaos without discipline and morality?

Krishnamurti: As I said at the beginning of my talk this evening,
we have turned morality and discipline into a shelter for our own protection, without any deep significance, without any reality. Are there not wars, ruthless exploitation, utter chaos in the world, in spite of your disciplines, your religions, your rigid frames of morality? So let us look into this structure of morality and discipline that we have built up and which has exploited us, which is destroying human intelligence. In the very examination of this closed structure of morality and discipline, with great care and without prejudice, you will begin to understand and develop that true morality which cannot be systematized, petrified.

The morality, the discipline that you have now is based on the individual's search for his own safety, security, through religion and economic exploitation. You may talk about love and brotherhood on Sundays, but on Mondays you exploit others in your various occupations. Religion, morality, discipline, merely act as a cover for hypocrisy. Such a morality, from my point of view, is immoral. As you ruthlessly seek economic security, out of which is born a morality suited for that purpose, so you have created religions all over the world which promise you immortality through their closed and peculiar disciplines and moralities. As long as this closed morality exists, there must be wars and exploitation, there cannot be the real love of man. This morality, this discipline, is really based on egotism and the ruthless search for individual security. When the mind frees itself from this centre of limited consciousness which is based on self-aggrandizement, then there comes the exquisite and delicate adjustment to life which does not demand rules and regulations, but which is consummately intelligent, expressing itself in the integrated action of true discernment.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sun, 19 Mar 2017.

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Sat, 11 Mar 2017 #2
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1006 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
we have turned....

One can turn everything into something it is not meant to be.

So provoking becomes an attack ...
Dialogue a discussion ...

etc.. etc ..
don't we know the differences or are they purposely used ???

How do we feel the difference between honesty and improbity ??

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 11 Mar 2017 #3
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 185 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Wim. If I may with all due respect, I think we have to be careful with words. K . used the words : we have turned..., but without wanting to make a distinction between the conscious and the unconscious, I don't think that the mind make this purposely, as an act of will. If we see that the portrait he make of what is the actual morality in the world, it is a discovery, someting we maybe wheren't aware off. It is then all about awareness, perception . Isn't it about the true in the false ? That actual morality being effectivily immorality ? Contradiction between our thoughts and our action. Which lead to dishonesty ? Can there be honesty without humility, which can be only when one is aware of our own contradictions ? Just some thoughts.

Wim Opdam wrote:
So provoking becomes an attack ...

Maybe you are talking here about someone in particular, who have lately assert that he was provoking the members of this forum for their own good, which is just plain stupid. If it is the case, I don't think it deserve such the attention that he already have had so far.

I don't think that there is any problem about dialogue or discussion. Though just arguing seems futile. Argumentation meaning there is no connection, relation, seeing anything together. If there is no connection, is there any dialogue or dicussion at all ?

If it is not the case, then my apologies :)

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sat, 11 Mar 2017.

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Mon, 13 Mar 2017 #4
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1006 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
I don't think that the mind make this purposely, as an act of will.

Hi Rich,

Normaly we are not aware of it, yes, but one can observe the activity of someone who is using it as a tool to fool others.
Take for example all the politicians and jurists, who for their own purpose distort the facts,
half-truths scatter to create confusion and thus bending the truth.
One can argue to do this for the greater goal but that's just against where this forum is all about.

One can not violate the foundation without 'the whole' collapsing.

Rich Nolet wrote:
Maybe you are talking here about someone in particular, who have lately assert that he was provoking the members of this forum for their own good, which is just plain stupid.

This was no more than the reason to put this human problem in a larger context,
unfortunately it is not limited to one person ;-)

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Mon, 13 Mar 2017.

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Mon, 13 Mar 2017 #5
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 185 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Normaly we are not aware of it, yes, but one can observe the activity of someone who is using it as a tool to fool others.

Yes, in that sense. Like a double langage, saying one thing and doing another, which is dishonesty.

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Mon, 13 Mar 2017 #6
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
I don't think it deserve such the attention that he already have had so far.

What is it that 'deserves' your attention ?

Isn't it what 'challenges' you ? Isn't this a defense mechanism ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 13 Mar 2017 #7
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 185 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
What is it that 'deserves' your attention ?

Isn't it what 'challenges' you ? Isn't this a defense mechanism ?

I will try to answer your question. You ask the question: what is it that deserves my attention ? And you have answered the question yourself. Then you have your answers, your already made conclusions about what deserves my attention. So why ask ? Honestly ?

This is what I meant by no connection, no relation.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Mon, 13 Mar 2017.

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Mon, 13 Mar 2017 #8
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2975 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
This is what I meant by no connection, no relation.

No dialogue....no discovery if we already know where we're going.

Let it Be

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Mon, 13 Mar 2017 #9
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1006 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
Like a double langage, saying one thing and doing another, which is dishonesty.

Hi Rich,

Is 'langage' a typing error from 'language', if not so what do you mean by it ?

Saying one thing and doing another is one of the problems what about changing the course of the action, just for fun or unconsciously ??

It's so much eaysier to ruin a delicate action than to delicately doing a action !!

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 13 Mar 2017 #10
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 185 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Hi Rich,

Is 'langage' a typing error from 'language', if not so what do you mean by it ?

Yes Wim, it is :-)

Wim Opdam wrote:
It's so much eaysier to ruin a delicate action than to delicately doing a action !!

:-) like it.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Mon, 13 Mar 2017.

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Mon, 13 Mar 2017 #11
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
Then you have your answers, your already made conclusions about what deserves my attention. So why ask ? Honestly ?

This is the problem and has been the problem on this forum. When anyone decides that they already know then where is the discussion, the discovery?

People are naturally put off by being told what they are thinking and why they are thinking it. One just stops listening to someone who responds like this to another.

Now may I make a suggestion? Don't turn this thread into another thread about Jean. This is exactly how threads are high jacked.

The thread started out about something quite different. I hope this original discussion will continue.

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Mon, 13 Mar 2017 #12
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 185 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
No dialogue....no discovery if we already know where we're going.

Of course it is Tom.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Mon, 13 Mar 2017.

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Mon, 13 Mar 2017 #13
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 185 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Now may I make a suggestion? Don't turn this thread into another thread about Jean. This is exactly how threads are high jacked.

...and also how attention gets away from the subject of the thread.

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Mon, 13 Mar 2017 #14
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
...and also how attention gets away from the subject of the thread.

So you see that your attention is automatically diverted to what challenges or threatens you ...

QED

In fact the most 'interesting' topic is about YOU

What else ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Mon, 13 Mar 2017.

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Mon, 13 Mar 2017 #15
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 185 posts in this forum Offline

So back to the topic of this thread from Wim.

K:The morality, the discipline that you have now is based on the individual's search for his own safety, security, through religion and economic exploitation. You may talk about love and brotherhood on Sundays, but on Mondays you exploit others in your various occupations. Religion, morality, discipline, merely act as a cover for hypocrisy. Such a morality, from my point of view, is immoral. As you ruthlessly seek economic security, out of which is born a morality suited for that purpose, so you have created religions all over the world which promise you immortality through their closed and peculiar disciplines and moralities. As long as this closed morality exists, there must be wars and exploitation, there cannot be the real love of man. This morality, this discipline, is really based on egotism and the ruthless search for individual security. When the mind frees itself from this centre of limited consciousness which is based on self-aggrandizement, then there comes the exquisite and delicate adjustment to life which does not demand rules and regulations, but which is consummately intelligent, expressing itself in the integrated action of true discernment.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Mon, 13 Mar 2017.

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #16
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1006 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote; quoting Krishnamurti:
"When the mind frees itself from this centre of limited consciousness which is based on self-aggrandizement, then there comes the exquisite and delicate adjustment to life which does not demand rules and regulations, but which is consummately intelligent, expressing itself in the integrated action of true discernment."

Here is delicately worded that it is the motive behind the act both of which can be performed by anyone. For someone who is observing, it is just as delicate to see this for what it is truthful or self-protective.

An objection that someones seeing is incorrect, is therefore rather a self-protective and/or ego-strengthening reaction.

That makes the way Krishnaji use the language also wielded so inviting in order to look deep within yourself. He is challenging but never rude or coarse, and always respectful to his interlocutor or listener.

Seeing only that would create a completely different picture of this forum, I'm sure about that.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #17
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
He is challenging but never rude or coarse, and always respectful to his interlocutor or listener.

Right, and K never insults people with whom he disagrees ...

Seeing only that would create a completely different picture of this forum, I'm sure about that.

Indeed :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Tue, 14 Mar 2017.

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #18
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1006 posts in this forum Offline

Public Talk 25th January, 1948 | Mumbai, India

"Please do not agree with me. It is not a question of agreement, but of understanding what is. If you merely agree with me, you will make me your authority; but if you understand, you will cease to worship authority, because the problem is not a matter of substituting one authority for another, but of being creative."

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #19
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 533 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
That makes the way Krishnaji use the language also wielded so inviting in order to look deep within yourself. He is challenging but never rude or coarse, and always respectful to his interlocutor or listener.

Hi Wim. Yes, Krishnamurti was indeed challenging without ever being rude or disrespectful. He talked a lot about education, communion and he certainly knew how to listen. I think we are generally unable to listen. Our minds are so full of nonsense that they are completely closed off most of the time, especially as we grow older.

Here's what Krishnamurti said:

"Education is not just to pass examinations, take a degree and a job, get married and settle down, but also to be able to listen to the birds, to see the sky, to see the extraordinary beauty of a tree, and the shape of the hills, and to feel with them, to be really, directly in touch with them. As you grow older, that sense of listening, seeing, unfortunately disappears because you have worries, you want more money, a better car, more children or less children. You become jealous, ambitious, greedy, envious; so you lose the sense of the beauty of the earth. You know what is happening in the world."

J. Krishnamurti Krishnamurti On Education Foreword

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #20
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Seeing only that would create a completely different picture of this forum, I'm sure about that.

This is exactly what the first rule of this forum is about: courtesy and respect ... I cannot say it enough ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Tue, 14 Mar 2017.

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #21
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1006 posts in this forum Offline

Vasanta School Gardens, Auckland New Zealand | 1st Public Talk, 30th March, 1934

"Surely, to understand what I am saying is not very difficult.
The difficulty lies in putting what I am saying into action."

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #22
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
K: "Surely, to understand what I am saying is not very difficult.
The difficulty lies in putting what I am saying into action."

Back to "Do what I tell you but don't do what I do"

Speech is cheap :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Tue, 14 Mar 2017.

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #23
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Public Talk 25th January, 1948 | Mumbai, India

"Please do not agree with me. It is not a question of agreement, but of understanding what is. If you merely agree with me, you will make me your authority;

Wim, this is an excellent and timely quote. Understanding this is crucial to understanding the difference between being a follower and seeing for yourself.

It is also one of the many major differences between who K was and how he what he pointed out diverged significantly from organized religion. The latter demands acceptance and compliance. The former points out that if you don't see it for yourself it is just acceptance and not understanding. And without worth.

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #24
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Hi Wim. Yes, Krishnamurti was indeed challenging without ever being rude or disrespectful.

This is true but K could be sharp and emphatic with his responses sometimes.

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #25
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 533 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
his is true but K could be sharp and emphatic with his responses sometimes.

Hi Jack. Yes, I know what you mean. No real problem with sharp and emphatic I'd say though.

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #26
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 533 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Vasanta School Gardens, Auckland New Zealand | 1st Public Talk, 30th March, 1934
"Surely, to understand what I am saying is not very difficult.
The difficulty lies in putting what I am saying into action."

Hi again Wim. This another great quote! As far as I can see, what Krishnamurti said was indeed very simple - observe yourself and the world with attention and a quiet mind and you will learn a great deal. Putting this into action does seem to give us great difficulty. Any thoughts on this anyone?

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #27
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Putting this into action does seem to give us great difficulty. Any thoughts on this anyone?

Yes, as long as the illusion of self persists and the need for security, our defenses will be a hindrance to such action ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #28
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
No real problem with sharp and emphatic I'd say though.

... and no problem with seeing what is ... as it is ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #29
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1006 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
points out that if you don't see it for yourself it is just acceptance and not understanding. And without worth.

Hi Jack,

This pointing out instead of stating: it is so and so take it or leaf it.... is also a huge difference.

One can feel behind the words the living of them and not the very cheap repetition of words without understanding.

Benares, India | 3rd Public Talk, 31st January 1960

When you are studying something living, it is not a practice.
You can practice a mechanical skill in handling something static.
But if you want to understand a child, can that become a practice?
The child is living, moving, changing, mischievous, and to understand
him, your mind must be as alive and as quick as he is.
You see, sir, one of our problems is why the mind becomes so mechanical.
I know that this question of practice arises everywhere.
Should we not practise this or that in order to realize God?
- as though God, life, truth, that extraordinary something, were static!
You think that if you do certain things day after day,
year in and year out, you will ultimately get the other.
But is the other, whatever you may call it, so cheap as that?

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #30
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1006 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Putting this into action does seem to give us great difficulty. Any thoughts on this anyone?

No, it is not a great difficulty, if it is a difficulty it sure is "I" working on it, but at the same time one can put up a show that such is learned, but it is easy to recognize as such.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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