Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Negation


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Wed, 01 Mar 2017 #1
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

To negate everything that man has invented

Questioner: I still don't know what you mean by enlightenment?

Krishnamurti: A state of negation. Negation is the most positive action, not positive assertion. This is a very important thing to understand. Most of us so easily accept positive dogma, a positive creed, because we want to be secure, to belong, to be attached, to depend. The positive attitude divides and brings about duality. The conflict then begins between this attitude and others. But the negation of all values, of all morality, of all beliefs, having no frontiers, cannot be in opposition to anything. A positive statement in its very definition separates, and separation is resistance. To this we are accustomed, this is our conditioning. To deny all this is not immoral; on the contrary to deny all division and resistance is the highest morality. To negate everything that man has invented, to negate all his values, ethics and gods, is to be in a state of mind in which there is no duality, therefore no resistance or conflict between opposites. In this state there are no opposites, and this state is not the opposite of something else.
Eight Conversations,7

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 07 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 02 Mar 2017 #2
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 523 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Jack. Surely this is a computer glitch rather than a deliberate policy to cut off your messaging service.

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Tue, 07 Mar 2017 #3
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

There has always been something very bothersome about people coming on here and asserting all kinds of things. Stating what things are or "bring them through" as if they were channeling some cosmic source of Truth. It's all humbuggery. Read the first post on this thread by Krisnamurti about negation.

We all know people, and sometimes we do it ourselves, who dwell on the positive because they want to "own" truth, "know" truth and then give this faux truth to others. Read the quote and don't react right away to it. Just stay with it for awhile. Let it engulf you and let it dissolve every vestige of your thought derived self.

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Tue, 07 Mar 2017 #4
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

Sorry Sean your post was left in the middle of this new thread which I recycled from an older thread that I started. I appreciated your original post. Thank you.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 07 Mar 2017.

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Tue, 07 Mar 2017 #5
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
K: ... "Most of us so easily accept positive dogma, a positive creed, because we want to be secure, to belong, to be attached, to depend. The positive attitude divides and brings about duality. The conflict then begins between this attitude and others. But the negation of all values, of all morality, of all beliefs, having no frontiers, cannot be in opposition to anything. "

Very interesting quote, thanks.

However K appears to be somethat 'simplistic' here ... he says that the "positive attitude" (which is the acceptance of beliefs, creed, dogma etc) divides and brings conflicts, while the negation is not in 'opposition with anything' ... this is not quite true, we know very well that the negation of the beliefs and traditions can lead you to conflicts with your environment because you refuse to conform to the norms and values of this environment, culture etc ... in some cases you could be called an 'apostate' and sentenced to death for your refusal to conform to some 'religion of peace' ... same for the one who refuses to join the army during a war ...

I think this is the very meaning of the controversial (and often misinterpreted) statement from Jesus:

"I came not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"

... the "sword" referred to here clearly means 'truth'

The negation (which is 'truth') does not bring peace but conflicts with the 'establishment' ... see what happened to Jesus himself ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Tue, 07 Mar 2017.

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Tue, 07 Mar 2017 #6
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
K: "Negation is the most positive action, not positive assertion. "

Indeed the negation of the false is positive ... minus by minus gives plus ... therefore the 'negation' IS Truth ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 07 Mar 2017 #7
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

Below is the continuation of K's above quote on negation. When you read K, not just this quote but everything K was saying, it is readily apparent that negation is the heart of what K was pointing out for 50 or 60 years.

Many have become disenchanted with K because of this negation. Most people want some sort of positive assertion of life. The fact is that there is no secret, no easy path to seeing life, to being life. But we are conditioned to think that there are answers to everything. An understanding that leads to endless positive conclusions about everything. To do this is to not see anything but our own conditioning.

Look at one's experience in school. School is based on the memorization of material and the finding of answers, the "correct" answers to everything. To free one's self of that life-long, deeply ingrained conditioning that there are "answers" to everything is extremely difficult.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 07 Mar 2017.

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Tue, 07 Mar 2017 #8
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

...continuation of the above quote on negation:

Questioner: Then how do you know what is good and what is bad? Or is there no good and bad? What is to prevent me from crime or even murder? If I have no standards what is to prevent me from God knows what aberrations? Krishnamurti: To deny all this is to deny oneself, and oneself is the conditioned entity who continually pursues a conditioned good. To most of us negation appears as a vacuum because we know activity only in the prison of our conditioning, fear and misery. From that we look at negation and imagine it to be some terrible state of oblivion or emptiness. To the man who has negated all the assertions of society, religion, culture and morality, the man who is still in the prison of social conformity is a man of sorrow. Negation is the state of enlightenment which functions in all the activities of a man who is free of the past. It is the past, with its tradition and its authority, that has to be negated. Negation is freedom, and it is the free man who lives, loves, and knows what it means to die.
Freedom, Love and Action Eight Conversations

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 07 Mar 2017.

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Tue, 07 Mar 2017 #9
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 124 posts in this forum Offline

When it comes to negation, just say no.

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Wed, 08 Mar 2017 #10
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

To see wholly, the brain has to be in a state of negation. Negation is not the opposite of the positive; all opposites are related within the fold of each other. Negation has no opposite. The brain has to be in a state of negation for total seeing; it must not interfere, with its evaluations and justifications, with its condemnations and defences. It has to be still, not made still by compulsion of any kind, for then it is a dead brain, merely imitating and conforming. When it is in a state of negation, it is choicelessly still. Only then is there total seeing. In this total seeing which is the quality of the mind, there is no seer, no observer, no experiencer; there’s only seeing. The mind then is completely awake. In this fully wakened state, there is no observer and the observed; there is only light, clarity. The contradiction and conflict between the thinker and thought ceases.

Krisnamurti's Notebook (96) Rome and Florence 25th

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Wed, 08 Mar 2017 #11
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
K: The brain has to be in a state of negation for total seeing; it must not interfere, with its evaluations and justifications, with its condemnations and defences.

Right, it is futile to condemn and judge others ... or try to get rid of them ... all this is resistance to 'what is' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 08 Mar 2017 #12
Thumb_eleph BTeulada II Portugal 2 posts in this forum Offline

Thank you for the excerpts Jack. Really, it is all so clear and pristine and it gets more and more so with the years. I never cease to be amazed at how complete is all that K says. There's a quality of finality in it. Like no more words should come after it. No more words are needed. No more thought is needed.

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Thu, 09 Mar 2017 #13
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 174 posts in this forum Offline

K. was way ahead of his time when it comes to wisdom and intelligence. Nothing to do with those poor little candles as Eckhart Tolle and Lisa Cairn or Mooji or Jean Gatti , and all the like those self proclaim guru of our times, which all pretend to be enlightened and are but candles against the sun. The awakening of intelligence is sacred. Let the fool be fool. Intelligence is not concern by darkness. There is no relation between them.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Thu, 09 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 09 Mar 2017 #14
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
which all pretend to be enlightened and are but candles against the sun.

Isn't this an image making of others ?

... and btw where would you put Jesus or Buddha ? were they candles or suns ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 09 Mar 2017 #15
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

Rich I appreciate your post 13 and agree completely with what you have stated. But I would ask everyone on this thread to not once again make it into a "Jean Gatti" thread. This thread is not about Jean or his superficial opinions, beliefs, shallow and easy conclusions rather it's about Negation. I think this is a fascinating topic and these quotes I have found are so clearly written as B Teulada has already pointed out.

I realize that may not be anything to say about the quotes on negation on this thread. Like most or all of everything else K spoke of they stand on their own. To try to interpret, paraphrase, or endlessly discuss it is just a waste of energy.

It is enough to read what K spoke and understand, see what he was trying to say without coming to conclusions, which are nothing more than personal opinions based on one's conditioning and as such are worth exactly zero.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 09 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 09 Mar 2017 #16
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

B it is so nice to see you back. I hope you are your family are well. Thanks for your comments.

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Thu, 09 Mar 2017 #17
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
But I would ask everyone on this thread to not once again make it into a "Jean Gatti" thread. This thread is not about Jean it's about Negation.

Yes, I fully agree, it is always a bad idea to make things 'personal' ... let us get the message instead of shooting the messenger ... moreover comparing K to anyone is utterly futile ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 09 Mar 2017 #18
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote (quoting K):
K: "But the negation of all values, of all morality, of all beliefs, having no frontiers, cannot be in opposition to anything."

Except that the one who negates the values and beliefs and traditions of his own communities (nation, religion, clan, party, family etc) will inevitably enter in opposition with his own groups ... the pressure of conformism is huge and must not be underestimated ... this is also why gaining real freedom is not so easy as you will be judged and condemned by your own groups ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 09 Mar 2017 #19
Thumb_eleph BTeulada II Portugal 2 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
B it is so nice to see you back. I hope you are your family are well.

Hi dear Jack, everything is peachy thank you.
As for K, he becomes clearer and clearer every step of the way. But like with intense light, one needs to get away from it for short periods or the eyes will hurt from it being too bright.

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Thu, 09 Mar 2017 #20
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 174 posts in this forum Offline

Jack post # 15

I agree totally with what you say Jack. I think that K.'s teaching must be approach very carefully, with passion and honesty. It is uge, very deep , and if we need to communicate, or discuss about it, though it is o.k., we should be very carefull not to fall into personnal interpretation.

As K. said:
A mind that is uncertain, self-contradictory, cannot know what is candor, honesty. Honesty demands humility, and there can be humility only when you are aware of your own state of self-contradiction, of your own uncertainty. Self-contradiction and uncertainty will ever exist if there is craving, uncertainty of value, of action, of relationship. He who is certain is obstinate, thoughtless. He who knows does not know.

Living in an Insane World

Fifth Talk in The Oak Grove

Sorry if it is off topic Jack, I had to say this.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Thu, 09 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 09 Mar 2017 #21
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
He who knows does not know.

Is this a 'cut and paste' from the Tao Te Ching written some 2500 years ago ?

Oh yes, everything has been said already ... but as nobody listens it must always be repeated again and again ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 09 Mar 2017 #22
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
He who is certain is obstinate, thoughtless. He who knows does not know.

No what you posted Rich is not off topic at all. It's very interesting and relevant to this thread.

Yes, K often pointed this out. If it is clear that the self is nothing more than a collection of thought as experience and knowledge, which is the past, then one would never claim to know the truth which is timeless. Which is not part of thought. But the illusion that one knows something, knows the truth has a strong attraction. To say that you know the truth is an expansion of your self, of your ego. It takes one even further from the truth, of living beyond the confines of thought.

It is easy to convince yourself that you "know the truth" but what is difficult is to let go of all illusion, to let go of the self and be nothing. "You are the world" simply means that you are the conditioning, the beliefs, the divisive and violent religions, the various nationalities, the traditions, the fears, the desires, the loneliness and all the rest that is the consciousness of mankind. That all humans feel. As long as one "is the world" one is trapped like a fly in amber.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 10 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 09 Mar 2017 #23
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 174 posts in this forum Offline

Good post again Jack. That is true, those are facts. So it seems we are back to the topic of this thread.

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