Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Craving


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Sun, 26 Feb 2017 #61
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
The illusion of a me separate from craving is a fact, however.

Right, the illusion of a me is a fact ... but the 'me' is not a fact ... there is only the illusion ... and the power of this illusion ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 26 Feb 2017 #62
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4781 posts in this forum Offline

Tom this is what I mean. You can either use this thread to discuss craving in which several will no doubt join in or you can nit-pick words and meaning of words with this 0000 and get absolutely no where.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 27 Feb 2017.

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #63
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2925 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
You can either use this thread to discuss craving in which several will no doubt join in or you can nit-pick words and meaning of words

OK. Let's get back to craving, which is a fact...'what is'....for man. To say that the self is an illusion won't help us one iota to understand the fact, since as long as there's craving, the self is also a fact....as craving is one of the aspects of the self. The man who craves a cigarette or a beer can assert that the self is an illusion til the end of time, but that won't make the desire for a cigarette any less real. So how do we understand this and similar cravings which are obviously not illusions.

Let it Be

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #64
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 1153 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
So how do we understand this and similar cravings which are obviously not illusions.

What's to "understand", you want a smoke, you smoke. You want a drink, you drink...maybe it's a habit, maybe it makes you feel good, maybe it's both...what do you want to "understand"?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 27 Feb 2017.

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #65
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2925 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
You want a drink, you drink...maybe it's a habit, maybe it makes you feel good...what do you want to "understand"?

I want to understand why I feel compelled to do something that's harming my health. I know smoking us bad for me, but I can't quit. I feel a strong need....compulsion...to smoke or overeat or drink too much. One part of me knows it may be killing me but another part wants to continue with it....inner conflict. Have you ever known someone who maxed out their credit cards because they were compelled to buy all kinds of junk they didn't really need....clothes, jewelry, expensive perfumes and other stuff they felt that they just must have...own? That's the craving we're discussing.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 27 Feb 2017.

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #66
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 1153 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I feel a strong need....compulsion...to smoke or overeat or drink too much. One part of me knows it may be killing me but another part wants to continue with it....inner conflict.

So try to see which part "wins" out.

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #67
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2925 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:

So try to see which part "wins" out.

And that will put an end to craving? To inner conflict? How will that help? I did in fact quit smoking many years ago, but I can't say that craving then totally ended. It just took a different direction.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 27 Feb 2017.

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #68
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 1153 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
And that will put an end to craving? To inner conflict? How will that help? I did in fact quit smoking many years ago, but I can't say that craving then totally ended. It just took a different direction.

Oh, you want to "end craving" and "end conflict", that's a different story...you want to be uncraven and conflictlessness, you don't want to "understand" them, you want to get rid of them. That's a big difference. K. (conveniently) has something that applies to that right above, I think:

K:Self-probing comes with conflict and sorrow, and there must be passive receptivity to understand. (my bold)

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #69
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2925 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
you don't want to "understand" them, you want to get rid of them.

Don't fool yourself. If you say to yourself, 'I want to understand my craving', it's because you want it to end, right? You're fooling yourself if you say you don't want to end conflict..suffering. We want to end violence don't we?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 27 Feb 2017.

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #70
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 1153 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Don't fool yourself. If you say to yourself, 'I want to understand my craving', it's because you want to end it, right? You're fooling yourself if you say you don't want to end conflict..suffering.

Probably but that question does get to the deeper thing: the self, me, is all about "craving" in one form or another, endless craving...that's the way it is and has been for ever. Face it. Saying it "shouldn't be" is not going to change it. That you don't 'want it to be' is not going to end it. It's "what is'. "Passive Receptivity", think about what that means.

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #71
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4781 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
To say that the self is an illusion won't help us one iota to understand the fact, since as long as there's craving, the self is also a fact....as craving is one of the aspects of the self. The man who craves a cigarette or a beer can assert that the self is an illusion til the end of time, but that won't make the desire for a cigarette any less real.

Tom I agree with the above. I wish I could add something to it but I honestly don't know where to begin or what to say.

I know what I'm about to write has become one of the many clichés on this forum but I don't see how one can really examine craving until it actually happens. Until the craving arises and we can watch it, feel it, embrace it, be it. Be craving without using the word because the word is the abstraction of the reality. The word is the memory of craving and the label thought uses to think about it. We don't want to think about it. We want to observe. Surely we all have frequent cravings which will afford opportunities to observe.

I understand some of the problem with doing this and that is to let the attention be with the feeling, the movement, instead of being conscious of the fact that we are "observing craving". Do you know what I mean?

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #72
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I want to understand why I feel compelled to do something that's harming my health. I know smoking us bad for me, but I can't quit. I feel a strong need....compulsion...to smoke or overeat or drink too much. One part of me knows it may be killing me but another part wants to continue with it....inner conflict.

OK Tom, you speak here of the addictions, right ?

Why do we indulge in those addictions while we know very well they are harmful for our health ?

Isn't it a kind of self sabotage ? a self destruction ?

Isn't it because something within is unsatisfied and that we want to compensate an inner unsatisfaction by a 'symbolic' one ? something that we don't really need (ie. addictions) ?

So where does the inner unsatisfaction come from ? could it be from an early childhood ? wounds from the past ? like the fear to be abandoned or not loved enough by our parents ? or maybe even some child abuse ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #73
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
OK. Let's get back to craving, which is a fact...'what is'....for man. To say that the self is an illusion won't help us one iota to understand the fact, since as long as there's craving, the self is also a fact....as craving is one of the aspects of the self.

"Craving is one of the aspects of the self" can we examine this statement ?

'Craving' means desire, need, right ? Something that we don't have and that we need strongly ?

Therefore 'craving' creates a separation, a division between 'me' and something I need, I want (K would say that we create 'psychological time' which is the distance between my desire and the satisfaction of desire). And this sense of separation necessarily feeds the sense of self which is about division between a 'center' (a 'me') and a periphery (ie. a 'non-me').

What I say here is that this division is illusional ... however as long as this very illusion (which is a thought, an idea) is still active, it has a power to force us to do stupid things ... this is the power of illusion ...

Therefore there is an intimate link between the illusion of self and craving. When the illusion is seen/realized, it loses all power, and craving disappears.

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #74
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
You're fooling yourself if you say you don't want to end conflict..suffering. We want to end violence don't we?

We want to end our own suffering ... and most people use conflict and violence for this ... I am hungry, I need food and I am going to use force and violence to get it ...

Conflict and violence are the main tools for self to get what it wants ... not many are really ready to relinquish those tools ... but all of them want to end their suffering ... not seeing that the use of force and violence engenders more 'global' suffering (for 'others' and ultimately for 'me' too) ... so we resolve our own suffering by making 'others' suffer, which is also a lack of 'compassion' for others ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Mon, 27 Feb 2017.

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #75
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2925 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
>Be craving without using the word because the word is the abstraction of the reality. The word is the memory of craving and the label thought uses to think about it. We don't want to think about it. We want to observe. Surely we all have frequent cravings which will afford opportunities to observe.

I understand some of the problem with doing this and that is to let the attention be with the feeling, the movement, instead of being conscious of the fact that we are "observing craving". Do you know what I mean?

Yes, I know what you're saying. You're speaking of attention free of the label. And free of the one who makes an effort to observe craving. So 'me' can't do this then. 'Me'/I/self IS the label/s and the effort to observe as well. Or am I mistaken about the latter part? If I have to make an effort, then part of me is NOT paying attention and I'm trying to force it....it's a movement in time. "I should be attentive". It's tricky, then. Can I simply observe without making an effort to do so...without the subtle desire to get rid of or end the craving for a drink or a smoke? Just asking....not concluding anything.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 27 Feb 2017.

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #76
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2925 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Isn't it because something within is unsatisfied and that we want to compensate an inner unsatisfaction by a 'symbolic' one ? something that we don't really need (ie. addictions) ?

So where does the inner unsatisfaction come from ?

It could be one of the examples you gave, but analyzing the cause won't get us very far. This is what all the psychologists and psychoanalysts are doing. It could also be some great fear or conflict that we are covering up with our smoking or drinking.

Let it Be

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #77
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2925 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Isn't it because something within is unsatisfied and that we want to compensate an inner unsatisfaction by a 'symbolic' one ? something that we don't really need (ie. addictions) ?

Nothing 'symbolic' about pouring another whiskey. The alcohol has very real physical effects which dull the very real pain of conflict and/or fear? Now if you're talking about a compulsive shopper, for instance, who goes on a spending spree to escape some inner conflict or suffering, then some other mechanism may be at work. But it's still a desire to escape inner pain by attempting to gain pleasure for oneself....the pleasure of buying another expensive bauble...a new necklace or ring...more expensive earings or more and more expensive tattoos, which are extremely popular among the young folk in my neck of the woods.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 27 Feb 2017.

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #78
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 504 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
OK. Let's get back to craving, which is a fact...'what is'....for man. To say that the self is an illusion won't help us one iota to understand the fact, since as long as there's craving, the self is also a fact....as craving is one of the aspects of the self. The man who craves a cigarette or a beer can assert that the self is an illusion til the end of time, but that won't make the desire for a cigarette any less real. So how do we understand this and similar cravings which are obviously not illusions.

Hi Tom and all. I think this is a very good question and one which is very much rooted in our day-to-day lives rather than an absract, philosophical question. I'll come back to this later.

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #79
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 374 posts in this forum Offline

I crave the pleasure (however fleeting) that doing something brings me - drugs, food, sex, gambling, shopping, fame - whatever the something is. And I know from experience, from memory, that indulging in it - giving in to it - will result in both physical and psychological pain, fear, self-recrimination, etc., it robs me of my health, ruins my finances … but it gives me pleasure. So I want the craving to end so that the suffering can end, and at the same time I want to indulge and get the pleasure.

So there are 2 opposing desires, aren’t there? --- the desire to indulge and the desire not to indulge. That is the conflict and I’m powerless to end it.

So the problem is not my craving in isolation, is it? Isn’t it the conflict that indulging brings? Am “I” separate from the conflict? Or is it the conflict - the opposing desire - which gives rise to “me”? If indulging had no negative consequences, did not cause pain, would there be conflict?

The mind has some insight or understanding into the nature of self, the fragmentation of thought, its inability to end craving, addiction, attachment, desire, will, and conflict. Since “I am stuck” in this repetitive cycle anyway, since it’s happening over and over again anyway no matter how hard “I try” to stop it, can’t there just be observation of the whole thing as it unfolds - observation of the desire to indulge, rebelling against it, bemoaning it, vainly struggling to change it? Then that observation is not from within the process, it is not part of the process, it is not the activity of self. Rebelling against it, wanting to change it, feeling powerless, and so on, IS part of the whole repetitive chain of cause and effect - the conflict - isn’t it?

Then such observation is innocent. There is no hope or desire to change anything in it, is there? In such observing, there IS an interest, a passion, to understand. It’s actual life that’s being observed, not a TV show. But this interest doesn’t have the same quality, the same nature as the desire or hope to change my behaviour, does it? It is effortless, goal-less, choiceless. It is not goaded by self-interest, it is not conflictual, is it? It does not conflict with another opposing desire.

I don’t know if this makes sense.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Mon, 27 Feb 2017.

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #80
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I crave the pleasure (however fleeting) that doing something brings me - drugs, food, sex, gambling, shopping, fame - whatever the something is … but it gives me pleasure.

For seriously investigating this question I would ask: why does any of those things you mention give you pleasure ? What is the nature of this 'pleasure' ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Mon, 27 Feb 2017.

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #81
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 374 posts in this forum Offline

I don't see it that way, Jean. To me it is the pursuit of pleasure, the desire to repeat it, the craving for it, that needs to be understood, and its connection to pain, NOT what the nature of pleasure is. That is, why does one crave and pursue pleasure in spite of the pain that it engenders?

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Mon, 27 Feb 2017 #82
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4781 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I crave the pleasure (however fleeting) that doing something brings me - drugs, food, sex, gambling, shopping, fame - whatever the something is. And I know from experience, from memory, that indulging in it - giving in to it - will result in both physical and psychological pain, fear, self-recrimination, etc., it robs me of my health, ruins my finances … but it gives me pleasure.

Well your example above certainly may be one valid way of seeing it. I see indulging in pleasure for the pure pleasure of doing it.

Have you ever felt this way: There are days that for whatever reason are trying, difficult days that end with physical and mental discord and exhaustion. You come home and sit out on your veranda looking at the Rocky Mountains. It's summertime with a soft, warm, dry desert breeze blowing in and making the aspen leaves quake and glisten and the cottonwoods moan faintly. You pour a shot of single malt into one of those short, heaven crystalline glasses and open a good, cold German beer. Sipping the scotch with a little beer chaser the flavors merge on your tongue and you feel that warm, friendly burn in your throat and moving down into your chest. It burns your nose just a little and you can smell the pureness of that 18 year old distilled elixir.

I used to have similar feelings to this, not as extravagant perhaps, when I used to smoke years ago. You have the feeling that you have found a little space for yourself where you can sit back and relax and just watch the world go by for awhile. It's also so enjoyable to share this with another. Either smoking or drinking.

You are happy in the little psychological space you have carved out for yourself in your mind. A space where nothing is allowed except the immediate beauty of being alive. On other days you remember this spot of time and look forward to repeating it but you know if it becomes a habit, an over indulgence, a dependency, as things like this so often do,...then what? Do you berate yourself? Feel guilty? Or do you get into it completely and see it for what it is? The "self" is saying I've earned this. I deserve this which is ridiculous but it's what is happening. Do you think if you see this it makes a difference?

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Tue, 28 Feb 2017 #83
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
That is, why does one crave and pursue pleasure in spite of the pain that it engenders?

Simply because pleasure brings you a temporary relief of your suffering ... the problem is that when you 'pursue' pleasure you will inevitably enter in conflict with 'what is' ... and this conflict engenders more suffering ...

Let us take a simple example: you are addicted to drugs or alcohol because they bring you some temporary relief of your pain, but you need money to buy it so you either have to work hard (and you don't like that) or to commit criminal acts (like stealing or burgling) which creates more suffering ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Tue, 28 Feb 2017.

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Tue, 28 Feb 2017 #84
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 504 posts in this forum Offline

Can we look at craving for a cigarette? I think there is the physical addiction to consider as nicotine is an addictive drug which the body craves. There is also habit. After a meal I crave a cigarette as I have been doing this for many years and obtain pleasure from it. I "know" that I am poisoning my body but continue to do so.

Perhaps there has to be some greater awareness of the damage I am doing to my body. I need to see this more clearly and not just on an intellectual level. Personally, I was never a heavy smoker and stopped more than 25 years ago. Doing yoga helped me. Working on my breathing brought into sharp contradiction the act of inhaling smoke. Probably reading up on the physical effects of smoke inhalation on the body will also make one see more clearly what a terrible assualt on our organism smoking is.

Well, these are just some observations. Any thoughts?

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Tue, 28 Feb 2017 #85
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Perhaps there has to be some greater awareness of the damage I am doing to my body. I need to see this more clearly and not just on an intellectual level.

Yes I would agree that greater awareness of the damage we create to our body can be a motivator to stop ... however when suffering is very strong, there is a tendency to self destruction, therefore even this awareness won't stop the addiction ... for some people suffering can lead to suicide or self destruction habits ...

In those cases, only the full understanding of the cause of suffering can really heal ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 28 Feb 2017 #86
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2925 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
however when suffering is very strong, there is a tendency to self destruction, therefore even this awareness won't stop the addiction ... for some people suffering can lead to suicide or self destruction habits ...

So we have two interrelated issues here....there's suffering and also the craving for something which will provide a temporary escape from the suffering. I've read horrible stories about people suffering with emphysema who continue to smoke. Of course suicide is the last resort when suffering becomes too much to face. Then on top of those two issues is the 'me' who attempts to deal with all the conflict that comes with craving. I analyze or repress my craving for a cigarette or a drink but, as in my own case, even when I quit smoking, craving simply found another channel.

Let it Be

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Tue, 28 Feb 2017 #87
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I analyze or repress my craving for a cigarette or a drink but, as in my own case, even when I quit smoking, craving simply found another channel.

Yes and it will persist until the root of suffering is addressed and healed ... until then there will be a need for sedation in a form or another ... this is the very foundation of 'neurosis'

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 28 Feb 2017 #88
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2925 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I see indulging in pleasure for the pure pleasure of doing it.

Have you ever felt this way:

Sure. I lived most of my life indulging in similar 'innocent' pleasures. I think all of us do...even K, with his love of mystery novels and adventure films. As a kid I recall enjoying so many pleasurable pursuits...camping outdoors....cooking breakfast in the woods over a camp fire...the heavenly smell of a wood fire...ice skating on a frozen pond...building a tree house....innocent, not overly competitive sports and games...the beach, barbecues. But I think that enjoyment and pleasure is different than 'craving'. I'm going to have to Google the word craving and maybe get more clarity on the distinction....but there is one, I'm certain.

Let it Be

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Tue, 28 Feb 2017 #89
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4781 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But I think that enjoyment and pleasure is different than 'craving'. I'm going to have to Google the word craving and maybe get more clarity on the distinction....but there is one, I'm certain.

You may be right. It is a matter of degree I suppose between indulging occasionally in unhealthy habits and actually craving something like a shot of heroin or a cigarette. The first behavior can lead to the second it seems. And maybe the mental process is the same which induces one to escape their life through drugs, alcohol, sex, TV watching and other habitual pursuits.

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Tue, 28 Feb 2017 #90
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 374 posts in this forum Offline

re 82:

Jack Pine wrote:
Well your example above certainly may be one valid way of seeing it. I see indulging in pleasure for the pure pleasure of doing it.

Jack,

Indulging for the pure pleasure of doing it is not what I was trying to say. Is pleasure “pure” if it is part of conflict? “Pure pleasure” to me means that there is no shadow of conflict in it, either before or after. And so the pleasure that is craved is not pure or innocent, as I see it.

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