Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Craving


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Thu, 23 Feb 2017 #1
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Online

From the QOTD: "IS there a possibility of finding enduring joy? There is, but to experience it there must be freedom. Without freedom truth cannot be discovered, without freedom there can be no experience of the Real. Freedom must be sought out; freedom from saviours, teachers, leaders; freedom from the self-enclosing walls of good and bad; freedom from authority and imitation; freedom from self, the cause of conflict and pain.

Just as long as craving in its different forms is not understood there will be conflict and pain. Conflict is not to be ended through superficial restatement of values nor by change of teachers and leaders. The ultimate solution lies in freedom from craving; not in another but in yourself is the way. The incessant battle within us all which we call existence cannot be brought to an end save through understanding and so transcending craving."

Any comments on how one might approach this subject? The subject of the 'me' and 'his' cravings?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 26 Feb 2017.

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Thu, 23 Feb 2017 #2
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 179 posts in this forum Offline

Here is K at his most Buddhist. Buddhism 101 is the 4 Noble Truths:

1.Life is suffering.
2.Suffering is caused by craving.
3.To end craving is to end suffering.
4.The way to end craving is the 8 fold path, which includes Right Meditation.

Sometimes the Sanskrit "dukkha" is translated as "craving," "desire," and/or "attachment."

Now compare K's craving quote of the day that begins this thread to the following K quote at the end of the book Think On These Things:

"Wanting to bring about a state of desirelessness is merely a trick of the mind... What is desire? It is energy, is it not? And the moment you throttle your energy you have made yourself dull, lifeless."

The full three paragraphs at the end of Think On These Things are great and are K stating the opposite of Buddhism 101.

What gives? Actually the two quotes are not in conflict, only superficially so. Liberation is not the elimination of desire but rather the complete understanding of desire and freedom from it.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 23 Feb 2017.

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Thu, 23 Feb 2017 #3
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Online

idiot ? wrote:
Actually the two quotes are not in conflict, only superficially so

It's not so simple to understand this issue, I don't think. There's craving because there's suffering. One can't simply understand or remove(obviously one can do nothing here) craving without going into the issue of conflict and suffering....and freedom, or lack of same....conformity.

"Freedom must be sought out; freedom from saviours, teachers, leaders; freedom from the self-enclosing walls of good and bad; freedom from authority and imitation; freedom from self, the cause of conflict and pain."

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 23 Feb 2017.

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Thu, 23 Feb 2017 #4
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Sometimes the Sanskrit "dukkha" is translated as "craving," "desire," and/or "attachment."

It is rather translated as "suffering" or "unsatisfaction" ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha

quote:

Dukkha (P?li; Sanskrit: du?kha; Tibetan: ?????????? sdug bsngal, pr. "duk-ngel") is an important Buddhist concept, commonly translated as "suffering", "pain" or "unsatisfactoriness"

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 23 Feb 2017 #5
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Actually the two quotes are not in conflict, only superficially so.

Well there is a huge conflict between Buddhism and K's teachings in the fact that Buddhism proposes methods to end suffering (4th Noble Truth and Eightfold Path), while K consistently denied the utility of any method ... "there is no path to truth" ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 23 Feb 2017 #6
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Any comments on how one might approach this subject? The subject of the 'me' and 'his' cravings?

Well the approach consists in attentive observation of the workings of self ... in other words 'self knowledge' ... and awareness ...

Why is there any 'craving' at all ? Why can't one just remain quiet ? Why the resistance to 'what is' ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Thu, 23 Feb 2017.

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Thu, 23 Feb 2017 #7
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Online

Jean Gatti wrote:
Why is there any 'craving' at all ? Why can't one just remain quiet ?

Because one suffers. One is not quiet when there is suffering, right? Suffering implies noise...conflict. There cannot be quiet when there's noise, obviously. The idea of just remaining quiet has no meaning when there's the fact of noise....when it's a goal or an ideal, that is.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 24 Feb 2017.

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #8
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Why is there any 'craving' at all ? Why can't one just remain quiet ? Why the resistance to 'what is' ?

Jean the only way these questions can be answered is to observe them in yourself and see for yourself why you are doing all these things. Since "you are the world" once you observe and understand these things in yourself then you will understand why these things are a fact for all of humanity.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 24 Feb 2017.

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #9
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Because one suffers. One is not quiet when there is suffering, right? Suffering implies noise...conflict.

Not necessarily Tom ... suffering implies noise and conflict only when suffering is resisted, when suffering engenders a 'reaction' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #10
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Online

Jean Gatti wrote:
when suffering engenders a 'reaction'

Aren't the suffering and the reaction two sides of the coin? Conflict IS reaction after all. I am overweight, for instance (I'm not, personally speaking), and I walk into a restaurant and I hear people at the next table making a joke about what I'm going to eat....my size, whatever. I react with shame or anger or guilt...the 'noise'. Isn't the reaction part and parcel of the suffering?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 24 Feb 2017.

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #11
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Why is there any 'craving' at all ?

Because "craving" is part of what is. Why are you resisting craving?

Jean Gatti wrote:
Why can't one just remain quiet ?

Why can't you remain quiet Jean? If you understood why this is then you would answer your own question.

Jean Gatti wrote:
Why the resistance to 'what is' ?

Yes Jean why? Why have you made an ideal, a concept out of "what is"? Do you even know what "what is" is?

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #12
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
suffering implies noise and conflict only when suffering is resisted, when suffering engenders a 'reaction' ...

Suffering is a reaction to what is. My wife leaves and I suffer. My child dies and I suffer.

Suffering is not apart, separate, from who we are. We are the suffering we feel. We want to be happy by escaping from suffering. Billions of dollars are spent every year in the vain attempt to escape from our suffering. But until we accept suffering as who we are, until we embrace suffering, not run from suffering, not resist suffering we will never understand suffering and what it is to be happy.

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #13
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Aren't the suffering and the reaction two sides of the coin?

Well Tom, suffering itself is indeed a resistance to 'what is' ... then when suffering occurs, we also react to suffering (which in the meantime became itself 'what is') ... so it is kind of 'chain reaction' ... we react twice: once against the situation itself, then a second reaction against suffering ...

This is why we got 2 chances to say 'yes' to 'what is' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #14
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

Jean are you able to explain anything in your life without first prefacing it with "resistance to what is"?

You seem to be completely consumed by that one thought, that one concept. Has it occurred to you yet that maybe you are not seeing "what is" because you are so enveloped, so committed to just seeing resistance to "what is".

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #15
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Well Tom, suffering itself is indeed a resistance to 'what is'

No Jean. Suffering is suffering without the filter of having to see it as yet again "resistance to 'what is'". You are not seeing suffering you're seeing your belief that it is resistance to something.

When K said he wanted to set us absolutely free I am pretty sure he was including setting us free of our obsessive thinking and ardent beliefs in the things that thought has invented and holds on to. Are you able to think for yourself without repeating something someone else has already said and you have memorized?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 24 Feb 2017.

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #16
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Jean are you able to explain anything in your life without first prefacing it with "resistance to what is"?

Yes, as K said "I don't mind what happens" :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #17
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Yes, as K said "I don't mind what happens" :-)

Wow. It sure was a lucky day for you when Tolle found that quote from K and passed it on. This enabled you to repeat it when you don't otherwise have any intelligent response to a question or other situation that would actually require you to come up with something original.

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #18
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Online

Jean Gatti wrote:
This is why we got 2 chances to say 'yes' to 'what is' ...

Come on, Jean.... you're just throwing out Tolle quotes here today. This is just a fantasy anyway. It implies someone separate from 'what is'.

Let it Be

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #19
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Jean are you able to explain anything in your life without first prefacing it with "resistance to what is"?

Complaining is a form of resistance to 'what is' ... so I understand that this pointer irritates you Jack ... yet what irritates you is an opportunity isn't it ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #20
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
It implies someone separate from 'what is'.

Saying 'no' to 'what is' creates a separation ... but saying 'yes' to 'what is' doesn't create division ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #21
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

So Jean what about this question of looking at suffering as suffering instead of seeing suffering as a "resistance to what is"? Do you think that looking at something at the time it is taking place without further translating it into something else, some other concept, maybe has some merit?

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #22
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
So Jean what about this question of looking at suffering as suffering instead of seeing suffering as a "resistance to what is"?

Because suffering IS a resistance to 'what is' ... this is a fact, and facts have to be acknowledged as facts ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #23
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Online

Jean Gatti wrote:
this is a fact, and facts have to be acknowledged as facts ...

If a fact is seen, that's one thing, but acknowledgement would be a thought.

Let it Be

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #24
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 179 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
[Dukkha] is rather translated as "suffering" or "unsatisfaction"

You are right. Whatever the Sanskrit term for desire, craving, attachment is gets translated respectively.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 24 Feb 2017.

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #25
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 179 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Actually the two quotes are not in conflict, only superficially so.

-

Jean Gatti wrote:
Well there is a huge conflict between Buddhism and K's teachings in the fact that Buddhism proposes methods to end suffering (4th Noble Truth and Eightfold Path), while K consistently denied the utility of any method ... "there is no path to truth" ...

There actually are some Buddhist teachers that teach there is no method, however, in general, you are correct that Buddhism advocates techniques of meditation and various other methods. Of course, while K teaches there is no method, at other times he teaches, for example, self knowledge (which is "arduous") that could be construed as a method. Even dialogue could be considered a method.

There certainly are differences between K teaching and Buddhism, which has a gigantic variety of teaching, as well as interesting parallels.

Now the two quotes I referred to are both from K. K discusses desire in apparently different ways. What he says at the end of Think On These Things is really interesting and very different than what many Buddhists or Hindus would likely say about desire.

Whereas the K quote that begins this thread would likely get nods of agreement from most Buddhists.

Now what I'm saying is that these two statements by K on the surface seem very different views about desire. But when looked at more deeply, they resolve.

If we are not careful, we can grab and latch onto parts of K teaching in simplistic and formulaic ways. However, sometimes K comes at issues in different ways that add richness and subtlety to his teachings.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 24 Feb 2017.

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #26
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Because suffering IS a resistance to 'what is' ... this is a fact, and facts have to be acknowledged as facts ...

Your above statement may or may not be a fact but whatever it is it is not the essence of suffering. When someone you love, someone very close to you, dies is your overriding feeling that you are "resisting what is" or is it something else? Suffering in this instance is despair, a sense of great loss and so on. There are a lot of things that are the resistance of what is but is that all they are? Is that what is important to understand?

Where is the awareness of your feeling in your wooden, by rote, mechanical response that suffering is just a resistance to loss?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 24 Feb 2017.

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Fri, 24 Feb 2017 #27
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
and facts have to be acknowledged as facts ...

Just because you believe something is a fact doesn't make it a fact. Facts require proof. Something you rarely, if ever, provide in your rambling statements that often seem as if you have pulled them out of your......association with what others think and believe.

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Sat, 25 Feb 2017 #28
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
When someone you love, someone very close to you, dies is your overriding feeling that you are "resisting what is" or is it something else? Suffering in this instance is despair, a sense of great loss and so on.

You see Jack, the "sense of loss" is already a resistance to 'what is' ... because nothing can be 'lost' ...

What is lost can only be in the realm of 'forms' ... in the realm of the formless, which is also 'nothingness', nothing can be lost ...

Remind K's statement "I am nothing" ... when I am nothing, what is it I can lose ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 25 Feb 2017 #29
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

"When you cry for yourself, is it love - crying because you are lonely, because you have been left, because you are no longer powerful - complaining of your lot, your environment - always you in tears? If you understand this, which means to come in contact with it as directly as you would touch a tree or a pillar or a hand, then you will see that sorrow is self-created, sorrow is created by thought, sorrow is the outcome of time. I had my brother three years ago, now he is dead, now I am lonely, aching, there is no one to whom I can look for comfort or companionship, and it brings tears to my eyes.

You can see all this happening inside yourself if you watch it. You can see it fully, completely, in one glance, not take analytical time over it. You can see in a moment the whole structure and nature of this shoddy little thing called 'me', my tears, my family, my nation, my belief, my religion - all that ugliness, it is all inside you. When you see it with your heart, not with your mind, when you see it from the very bottom of your heart, then you have the key that will end sorrow."

Freedom From the Known
J. Krishnamurti Freedom from the Known Chapter 10

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 25 Feb 2017 #30
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

"The absolute fact is that one is going to die and that death means the ending of knowledge, memories. So can one live with death and not keep the two apart? You understand? You follow all this? What does it mean to live with death? What does it mean to own nothing? You may have money, a wife, children, but to hold and wanting that which you have held to go on, and death means you hold nothing."

J. KRISHNAMURTI

J. Krishnamurti Fourth Public Talk at Brockwood Park 2 September 1984

Why resist 'what is' ?

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