Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What is immortality ?


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Thu, 09 Feb 2017 #1
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8443 posts in this forum Offline

"To find out what is true, what is the significance of life, what is immortality, without which life becomes a chaotic triviality, a senseless, blind suffering, you must have intelligence;"

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day | Feb 09, 2017

What is immortality ?

Can there be immortality with the body ? Certainly not ... then what is it that is immortal ?

Is it intelligence to SEE that we are not the body ?

... but then what are we exactly ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #2
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3714 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
... but then what are we exactly ?

Yes, who/what are/am/is I? The only question worthy of consideration. Anything else is simply psychological/spiritual masturbation. Either way, it's a solo/solitary endeavor.

Stuff happens

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #3
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4651 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Is it intelligence to SEE that we are not the body ?

... but then what are we exactly ?

Ah, good news Jean. Since you have obviously either forgotten this quote that was posted a few short weeks ago, or more likely, are resisting understanding what K is pointing out here I have reposted it. Jean you can't simply ignore, resist or reject what you don't like because you don't agree with it. You have to look into things objectively without already having a conclusion ready.

From Krishnamurti:

You are nothing
So the nature, the inmost nature of the self, when you have gone through all the layers of the self, the essence is nothing. You are nothing. Right? On that nothingness thought has imposed the super structure of consciousness. Consciousness being the content, without the content there is no consciousness - the content being you are a Hindu, Buddhist, your religion, your particular god, your puja, your anxiety, your sorrow, your pain, your hate, your love, all that is the content of your consciousness. Obviously. And the idea that you are super atman, or super, super consciousness is part of that content. You understand what thought has done. We are absolutely nothing. All this super structure has been built by thought. And thought is the response of registration. Of course. You understand registration, like a tape. See what thought has done.

The Text Collection Madras 5th Public Talk 7th January 1978

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #4
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8443 posts in this forum Offline

We are nothing ... therefore we are the world ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #5
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4651 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
We are nothing ... therefore we are the world ...

Jean you need to ask yourself why can't you just stay with the fact instead of always coming to a conclusion about something. We are nothing. Stay with that fact. Your conclusions are your conditioning, your memory, in the form of opinion speaking.

And anyway "we are nothing....therefore we are the world" doesn't follow logically. It's not clear that being nothing means we are the world. You are resisting what is when you form a conclusion about it.

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #6
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8443 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
And anyway "we are nothing....therefore we are the world" doesn't follow logically.

"You were there in that garden but you were that thing flying effortless against that massive cloud; it was [not] in thought you were up there; nor in empty fancy and imagination; you were actually up there, not identifying yourself with it but you were that bird; watching the earth and flying on the wind. If it was fancy or imagination, a thing of thought, when that bird left the cloud, you were everything, that man in rags on the road, that black and white bird with its bobbing tail and the man who was talking to you about his difficulties. You were everything and yet nothing; because you were nothing, you were everything. But this nothingness is not a thing of the mind; thought can only beget thought; expand itself through knowledge or belittle itself in self-pity. But thought cannot make itself into nothing; it can only form itself with ideas, with words but it can never be the fact, the nothing."

Krishnamurti's Notebook (191) 2nd

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teach...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Fri, 10 Feb 2017.

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #7
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8443 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
And anyway "we are nothing....therefore we are the world" doesn't follow logically.

'Logic' applies to the world of objects, to the realm of 'matter' and 'forms' and 'things' ... we are speaking here of something that does not belong to matter ... something which is formless ... which is no thing ('nothing') ...

" Is it that, that because if you have no image you are nothing. Which means not-a-thing. You understand? Nothing means not-a-thing. That is, not a thing is created by thought, by the mind. I wonder if you follow all this? No, this is too much."

J. Krishnamurti Ojai 2nd Public Talk 4th May 1980

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Fri, 10 Feb 2017.

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #8
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8443 posts in this forum Offline

"When you really acknowledge that you are nothing, then you are everything. Then you know what love is. Then when I feel I am nothing, when you tell me your great ideal, it means nothing to me."

Notes of Group Discussions at Madras during 1947 with J. Krishnamurti

J. Krishnamurti

Thirtieth Discussion at Madras

December 1947

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #9
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8443 posts in this forum Offline

"Krishnamurti: It is like asking questions about the other shore while living and suffering on this shore. When you are on the other shore you are everything and nothing, and you never ask such questions. All such questions are of this shore and really have no meaning at all."

J. Krishnamurti Eight Conversations 1st Conversation

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teach...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #10
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4651 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
When you really acknowledge that you are nothing, then you are everything.

But do you understand this or are you just repeating? Making a abstraction out of it?

Consider this: You are a Christian, you accept what the bible says. If you are a Christian, a muslim, a hindu or an Englishman, an American, a Belgian ,whatever, then you are something. If you are something then you are not the world. You are just repeating what someone else, K, has said without understanding it.

You can't be a Christian, believe in the Christian dogma, and still be nothing. Do you understand that?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 10 Feb 2017.

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #11
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8443 posts in this forum Offline

Ken B wrote:
K: Death did not tell him whether there is continuity, whether there is life after death, or whether there is annihilation; Death taught him rather the meaning of immortality.

Death is a concept, an idea (related to an erroneous identity with the body) ... death can never be an actual fact ... so no thought, no death ...

When we are nothing, not a thing, can nothing die ? only forms (things, bodies) die ... the formless (or nothingness) cannot die ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Fri, 10 Feb 2017.

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #12
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 922 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote; quoting Krishnamurti:
"When you really acknowledge that you are nothing, then you are everything."

Jean, the clue is in: "really acknowledge" but you turn it around
by making everything into nothing !
That's a huge difference !!!!

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 11 Feb 2017 #13
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8443 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
so no thought, no death ...

In other words you are immortal when you don't think

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 11 Feb 2017 #14
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4651 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Jean, the clue is in: "really acknowledge" but you turn it around
by making everything into nothing !
That's a huge difference !!!!

Very good point Wim. Yes it is a huge difference. It's the "you" striving for an end with the expectation of gaining something. Only when the "you" stops striving, stops desiring is there the nothing K was pointing out.

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Mon, 13 Feb 2017 #15
Thumb_trees jamie f United Kingdom 94 posts in this forum Online

Jean Gatti wrote:
In other words you are immortal when you don't think

Which rather proves my point about self-observation. Thought is movement and movement is time. So to observe the movement of self is to observe time. However, one is not separate from what one is observing - the observer is the observed. So, although one is observing in real-time, one is also the time that one is observing.

'It's there, as if it were behind a curtain.'

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Mon, 13 Feb 2017 #16
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8443 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Which rather proves my point about self-observation.

Is there a need to 'prove' anything ?

Where does the will to prove come from ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 13 Feb 2017 #17
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 922 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Is there a need to 'prove' anything ?

If there is, it's proof of the presence of identification with something !!

Where does the will to prove come from ?

Obviously from someone's 'ego', who wants to live, wants flowering.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Tue, 14 Feb 2017 #18
Thumb_trees jamie f United Kingdom 94 posts in this forum Online

Jean Gatti wrote:
Is there a need to 'prove' anything ?

Only inasmuch as it will prevent further endless debate on something so obvious.

'It's there, as if it were behind a curtain.'

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Tue, 14 Feb 2017 #19
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8443 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Only inasmuch as it will prevent further endless debate on something so obvious.

So your goal is to prevent endless debate ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 14 Feb 2017 #20
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4651 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Jean Gatti wrote:
Is there a need to 'prove' anything ?

Jamie wrote:

Only inasmuch as it will prevent further endless debate on something so obvious.

Well I wish you luck with that and I agree with you. But you must realize that it is a lot easier for some to endlessly debate the obvious when they lack the understanding to debate something less mundane, less pedestrian.

Easier to discuss something other than what they think they already have the answer to. It would be a nice change to discuss something serious. An honest discussing where there is a sense of real discovery and not just manufacturing a chance to push one's opinions on others.

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Tue, 14 Feb 2017 #21
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8443 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

Is there a need to 'prove' anything ?

If there is, it's proof of the presence of identification with something !!

Where does the will to prove come from ?

Obviously from someone's 'ego', who wants to live, wants flowering.

Certainly an ego hidden somewhere and needing to 'control' ... needing to 'prove' ... needing to be 'right' ... needing, needing, needing ... ego's belly is never full ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 14 Feb 2017 #22
Thumb_trees jamie f United Kingdom 94 posts in this forum Online

Jean Gatti wrote:
So your goal is to prevent endless debate ?

Do you have goals Jean? Because for someone who is fond of saying that you are the world, you do seem to spend a lot of time acting as though you are not the world. ;-)

'It's there, as if it were behind a curtain.'

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Tue, 14 Feb 2017 #23
Thumb_trees jamie f United Kingdom 94 posts in this forum Online

Jack Pine wrote:
Well I wish you luck with that and I agree with you. But you must realize that it is a lot easier for some to endlessly debate the obvious when they lack the understanding to debate something less mundane, less pedestrian.

Easier to discuss something other than what they think they already have the answer to. It would be a nice change to discuss something serious. An honest discussing where there is a sense of real discovery and not just manufacturing a chance to push one's opinions on others.

Thank you for your good wishes. I have had many discussions on Kinfonet over the years. Perhaps too many, in fact. Most have been fruitful, but there is a point in some discussions where opinion is polarised and that often leads to a situation where one feels pressurised into accepting the others' point of view otherwise the debate goes on ad infinitum as opinions are just repeated over and over and over again. That seems to me to not really to be 'learning' as such, more just a question of sheer stamina and I get bored very easily. ;-)

Also, there are certain 'tactics' that are regularly employed. I suspect that to always seek to shift the onus of explanation onto one's interlocutor is a 'distraction technique' because one has very little of interest to say for oneself and one is relying on others to produce the interest. Once seen, this 'distraction technique' is very obvious and stands out clearly against the background noise.

'It's there, as if it were behind a curtain.'

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Tue, 14 Feb 2017 #24
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8443 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Do you have goals Jean?

A goal means that there is something to 'do' ... and where there is something to 'do' there must be a 'doer' ... and when one is 'doing' it is very easy to forget about 'being' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 16 Feb 2017 #25
Thumb_trees jamie f United Kingdom 94 posts in this forum Online

Jean Gatti wrote:
A goal means that there is something to 'do' ... and where there is something to 'do' there must be a 'doer' ... and when one is 'doing' it is very easy to forget about 'being'

Not quite what I asked but thank you anyway.

A 'goal' is a target. Something to aim for. It can be something personal such as rowing singlehanded across the Atlantic, a noble aspiration for the wider community such as setting mankind unconditionally free or even something wildly improbable such as getting a straight answer to a straight question on a Kinfonet message board. It is a form of resistance to 'what is' of course but then so is the fight against poverty and social inequality.

'It's there, as if it were behind a curtain.'

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Thu, 16 Feb 2017 #26
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8443 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
It is a form of resistance to 'what is' of course but then so is the fight against poverty and social inequality.

Yes, and that's exactly the problem with goals ... they create projections of all kinds of 'should be's which enter in conflict with 'what is' ...

... about the "fight against poverty and social inequality" don't forget that whatever you fight persists ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 17 Feb 2017 #27
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4651 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
about the "fight against poverty and social inequality" don't forget that whatever you fight persists ...

Jean, do you recite a slogan every time before you use the bathroom? Just asking.

Jean Gatti wrote:
... about the "fight against poverty and social inequality" don't forget that whatever you fight persists ...

Jack Pine wrote:

And Jean trying to help end poverty and social inequality is part of what is in the world. Why are you resisting this? Are you impervious to the suffering of others? Or do you support poverty and social inequality?

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2 days ago #28
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1113 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
So your goal is to prevent endless debate ?

And yours to create it ?

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2 days ago #29
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1113 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
... about the "fight against poverty and social inequality" don't forget that whatever you fight persists ...

Counterexample: vaccine and virus

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2 days ago #30
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1113 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
and when one is 'doing' it is very easy to forget about 'being' ...

yes 'do' not forget about 'being' whatever you 'do' :-)

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