Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What is immortality ?


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Thu, 09 Feb 2017 #1
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

"To find out what is true, what is the significance of life, what is immortality, without which life becomes a chaotic triviality, a senseless, blind suffering, you must have intelligence;"

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day | Feb 09, 2017

What is immortality ?

Can there be immortality with the body ? Certainly not ... then what is it that is immortal ?

Is it intelligence to SEE that we are not the body ?

... but then what are we exactly ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #2
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3828 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
... but then what are we exactly ?

Yes, who/what are/am/is I? The only question worthy of consideration. Anything else is simply psychological/spiritual masturbation. Either way, it's a solo/solitary endeavor.

Stuff happens

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #3
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Is it intelligence to SEE that we are not the body ?

... but then what are we exactly ?

Ah, good news Jean. Since you have obviously either forgotten this quote that was posted a few short weeks ago, or more likely, are resisting understanding what K is pointing out here I have reposted it. Jean you can't simply ignore, resist or reject what you don't like because you don't agree with it. You have to look into things objectively without already having a conclusion ready.

From Krishnamurti:

You are nothing
So the nature, the inmost nature of the self, when you have gone through all the layers of the self, the essence is nothing. You are nothing. Right? On that nothingness thought has imposed the super structure of consciousness. Consciousness being the content, without the content there is no consciousness - the content being you are a Hindu, Buddhist, your religion, your particular god, your puja, your anxiety, your sorrow, your pain, your hate, your love, all that is the content of your consciousness. Obviously. And the idea that you are super atman, or super, super consciousness is part of that content. You understand what thought has done. We are absolutely nothing. All this super structure has been built by thought. And thought is the response of registration. Of course. You understand registration, like a tape. See what thought has done.

The Text Collection Madras 5th Public Talk 7th January 1978

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #4
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

We are nothing ... therefore we are the world ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #5
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
We are nothing ... therefore we are the world ...

Jean you need to ask yourself why can't you just stay with the fact instead of always coming to a conclusion about something. We are nothing. Stay with that fact. Your conclusions are your conditioning, your memory, in the form of opinion speaking.

And anyway "we are nothing....therefore we are the world" doesn't follow logically. It's not clear that being nothing means we are the world. You are resisting what is when you form a conclusion about it.

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #6
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
And anyway "we are nothing....therefore we are the world" doesn't follow logically.

"You were there in that garden but you were that thing flying effortless against that massive cloud; it was [not] in thought you were up there; nor in empty fancy and imagination; you were actually up there, not identifying yourself with it but you were that bird; watching the earth and flying on the wind. If it was fancy or imagination, a thing of thought, when that bird left the cloud, you were everything, that man in rags on the road, that black and white bird with its bobbing tail and the man who was talking to you about his difficulties. You were everything and yet nothing; because you were nothing, you were everything. But this nothingness is not a thing of the mind; thought can only beget thought; expand itself through knowledge or belittle itself in self-pity. But thought cannot make itself into nothing; it can only form itself with ideas, with words but it can never be the fact, the nothing."

Krishnamurti's Notebook (191) 2nd

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teach...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Fri, 10 Feb 2017.

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #7
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
And anyway "we are nothing....therefore we are the world" doesn't follow logically.

'Logic' applies to the world of objects, to the realm of 'matter' and 'forms' and 'things' ... we are speaking here of something that does not belong to matter ... something which is formless ... which is no thing ('nothing') ...

" Is it that, that because if you have no image you are nothing. Which means not-a-thing. You understand? Nothing means not-a-thing. That is, not a thing is created by thought, by the mind. I wonder if you follow all this? No, this is too much."

J. Krishnamurti Ojai 2nd Public Talk 4th May 1980

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Fri, 10 Feb 2017.

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #8
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

"When you really acknowledge that you are nothing, then you are everything. Then you know what love is. Then when I feel I am nothing, when you tell me your great ideal, it means nothing to me."

Notes of Group Discussions at Madras during 1947 with J. Krishnamurti

J. Krishnamurti

Thirtieth Discussion at Madras

December 1947

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #9
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

"Krishnamurti: It is like asking questions about the other shore while living and suffering on this shore. When you are on the other shore you are everything and nothing, and you never ask such questions. All such questions are of this shore and really have no meaning at all."

J. Krishnamurti Eight Conversations 1st Conversation

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teach...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #10
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
When you really acknowledge that you are nothing, then you are everything.

But do you understand this or are you just repeating? Making a abstraction out of it?

Consider this: You are a Christian, you accept what the bible says. If you are a Christian, a muslim, a hindu or an Englishman, an American, a Belgian ,whatever, then you are something. If you are something then you are not the world. You are just repeating what someone else, K, has said without understanding it.

You can't be a Christian, believe in the Christian dogma, and still be nothing. Do you understand that?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 10 Feb 2017.

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #11
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Ken B wrote:
K: Death did not tell him whether there is continuity, whether there is life after death, or whether there is annihilation; Death taught him rather the meaning of immortality.

Death is a concept, an idea (related to an erroneous identity with the body) ... death can never be an actual fact ... so no thought, no death ...

When we are nothing, not a thing, can nothing die ? only forms (things, bodies) die ... the formless (or nothingness) cannot die ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Fri, 10 Feb 2017.

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Fri, 10 Feb 2017 #12
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 997 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote; quoting Krishnamurti:
"When you really acknowledge that you are nothing, then you are everything."

Jean, the clue is in: "really acknowledge" but you turn it around
by making everything into nothing !
That's a huge difference !!!!

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 11 Feb 2017 #13
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
so no thought, no death ...

In other words you are immortal when you don't think

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 11 Feb 2017 #14
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Jean, the clue is in: "really acknowledge" but you turn it around
by making everything into nothing !
That's a huge difference !!!!

Very good point Wim. Yes it is a huge difference. It's the "you" striving for an end with the expectation of gaining something. Only when the "you" stops striving, stops desiring is there the nothing K was pointing out.

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Mon, 13 Feb 2017 #15
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Which rather proves my point about self-observation.

Is there a need to 'prove' anything ?

Where does the will to prove come from ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 13 Feb 2017 #16
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 997 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Is there a need to 'prove' anything ?

If there is, it's proof of the presence of identification with something !!

Where does the will to prove come from ?

Obviously from someone's 'ego', who wants to live, wants flowering.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Tue, 14 Feb 2017 #17
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Only inasmuch as it will prevent further endless debate on something so obvious.

So your goal is to prevent endless debate ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 14 Feb 2017 #18
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Jean Gatti wrote:
Is there a need to 'prove' anything ?

Jamie wrote:

Only inasmuch as it will prevent further endless debate on something so obvious.

Well I wish you luck with that and I agree with you. But you must realize that it is a lot easier for some to endlessly debate the obvious when they lack the understanding to debate something less mundane, less pedestrian.

Easier to discuss something other than what they think they already have the answer to. It would be a nice change to discuss something serious. An honest discussing where there is a sense of real discovery and not just manufacturing a chance to push one's opinions on others.

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Tue, 14 Feb 2017 #19
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

Is there a need to 'prove' anything ?

If there is, it's proof of the presence of identification with something !!

Where does the will to prove come from ?

Obviously from someone's 'ego', who wants to live, wants flowering.

Certainly an ego hidden somewhere and needing to 'control' ... needing to 'prove' ... needing to be 'right' ... needing, needing, needing ... ego's belly is never full ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 14 Feb 2017 #20
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Do you have goals Jean?

A goal means that there is something to 'do' ... and where there is something to 'do' there must be a 'doer' ... and when one is 'doing' it is very easy to forget about 'being' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 16 Feb 2017 #21
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
It is a form of resistance to 'what is' of course but then so is the fight against poverty and social inequality.

Yes, and that's exactly the problem with goals ... they create projections of all kinds of 'should be's which enter in conflict with 'what is' ...

... about the "fight against poverty and social inequality" don't forget that whatever you fight persists ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 17 Feb 2017 #22
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
about the "fight against poverty and social inequality" don't forget that whatever you fight persists ...

Jean, do you recite a slogan every time before you use the bathroom? Just asking.

Jean Gatti wrote:
... about the "fight against poverty and social inequality" don't forget that whatever you fight persists ...

Jack Pine wrote:

And Jean trying to help end poverty and social inequality is part of what is in the world. Why are you resisting this? Are you impervious to the suffering of others? Or do you support poverty and social inequality?

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Fri, 17 Feb 2017 #23
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1148 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
So your goal is to prevent endless debate ?

And yours to create it ?

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Fri, 17 Feb 2017 #24
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1148 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
... about the "fight against poverty and social inequality" don't forget that whatever you fight persists ...

Counterexample: vaccine and virus

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Fri, 17 Feb 2017 #25
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1148 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
and when one is 'doing' it is very easy to forget about 'being' ...

yes 'do' not forget about 'being' whatever you 'do' :-)

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Fri, 17 Feb 2017 #26
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

dave h wrote:
yes 'do' not forget about 'being' whatever you 'do' :-)

So what are we going to do ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 18 Feb 2017 #27
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
A bigger mistake than resistance in the face of injustice is to do nothing. Krishnamurti may be saying 'we are nothing' but he most assuredly is not saying 'let's do nothing'.

Are you going to create new systems, new 'methods', new ideologies, new organizations against poverty and injustice ?

Anything you 'do' comes from thought ... therefore will necessarily be 'corrupted', no ?

K never said "you have to do something" but rather "see and understand" ... then only something can 'happen' ...

"Is it not necessary to understand the thinker, the doer, the actor, since his thought, his deed, his action cannot be separated from him? The thinker is the thought, the doer is the deed, the actor is the action. In his thought the thinker is revealed. The thinker through his actions creates his own misery, his ignorance, his strife. The painter paints this picture of passing happiness, of sorrow, of confusion. Why does he produce this painful picture? Surely, this is the problem that must be studied, understood and dissolved. Why does the thinker think his thoughts, from which flow all his actions? This is the rock wall against which you have been battering your head, is it not? If the thinker can transcend himself, then all conflict will cease: and to transcend he must know himself. What is known and understood, what is fulfilled and completed does not repeat itself. It is repetition that gives continuity to the thinker."

J. Krishnamurti, The Book of Life

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sat, 18 Feb 2017.

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Sat, 18 Feb 2017 #28
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Anything you 'do' comes from thought ... therefore will necessarily be 'corrupted', no ?

Right....from the 'me'/ego who has created the world disorder in the first place. This is not to imply that one should not feed the poor or work in some way to address the issues related to work place exploitation or environmental pollution. But knowing oneself is fundamental.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 18 Feb 2017.

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Sat, 18 Feb 2017 #29
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Nonsense. You see something, you act. No thinking required.

Then this 'action' is not a 'doing' ... 'doing' necessarily involves 'thinking' ... when you walk in the woods you are not 'doing' something, because you don't have to think to this action, walking just happens ...

Did you ever hear of 'non-action' (or 'wu wei') in Taoism ? ... 'non-action' does not mean immobility, it means that thought is not involved in action ... in other words an action without intention (or goal) or 'effortless' ... therefore no thought implied in this action either ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei

"Wu wei (English, lit. non-doing) is an important concept in Taoism that literally means non-action or non-doing. In the Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu explains that beings (or phenomena) that are wholly in harmony with the Tao behave in a completely natural, uncontrived way."

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sat, 18 Feb 2017.

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Sun, 19 Feb 2017 #30
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Jean Gatti wrote:

Anything you 'do' comes from thought ... therefore will necessarily be 'corrupted', no ?

Jamie: Nonsense. You see something, you act. No thinking required.

Tom: Much of what we do 'without thinking' is a conditioned re-action. Conditioned thought is hidden underneath(in the unconscious) the action. What seems like a spontaneous action to 'do good' or to do something about the 'world disorder' is often motivated by subconscious thought...it's an action of the self....there's something in it for 'me'. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but this is how I see it.

Let it Be

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