Jean Gatti wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Hmmmm... you're implying religious rituals have some value?

Jean: Well certainly when they imply that they bring you back to presence, which is their very purpose ...

K. Talk in Saanen 1980:
"But religion as it exists is not religion at all. All the propaganda, the images in the West, and the images in the East, you know, the whole rituals, the whole dressing up and all that business, has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. You may disagree with this. If you are a devout Christian, a practising Catholic, probably you will even not listen. And when the speaker goes to India he tells them the same thing, that their religion, their superstitions, their images, all the nonsensical meaningless rituals have nothing to do whatsoever with truth."

Let it Be

Tom Paine wrote:
K: "And when the speaker goes to India he tells them the same thing, that their religion, their superstitions, their images, all the nonsensical meaningless rituals have nothing to do whatsoever with truth."

K speaks here of rituals being performed automatically, without awareness, without presence, without understanding ... then indeed it becomes meaningless ...

When a ritual is accomplished in full presence and awareness, then it is a real 'meditation' in action ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

Jean Gatti wrote:
K speaks here of rituals being performed automatically, without awareness, without presence, without understanding ... then indeed it becomes meaningless ...

>When a ritual is accomplished in full presence and awareness, then it is a real 'meditation' in action ...****

No Jean K didn't put that condition on what he said that's you putting conditions on religious rituals. K isn't just speaking of rituals being performed automatically without awareness. That is your interpretation on it so that you can continue to convince yourself that you are correct and that your deeply held religious beliefs are correct.

Rituals are still the propaganda of religion, the dogma that is repeated over and over again. It is part of the drug of organized religion to lull people into a stupor to make them feel that everything is fine. And to control them.

Rituals are habits with authority given to them by the hierarchy of the church. It is what someone else believed and has become institutionalized by repetition and general mindless acceptance by the "flock", the followers.

Jean do you even have any idea of how stultifying these completely absurd statements of yours on religious ritual, dogma really are? Do you see how this is not only contradicting what K has pointed out time and again but is an affront to reason and intelligence?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 08 Feb 2017.

Ken B wrote:
"For the first few days, he rested in the morning and walked in the afternoons. I did the cooking. We played records in the evening, in particular Gregorian chants, which he liked and felt had qualities of Sanskrit chants."

So what point are you trying to make with this statement Ken?

Ken B wrote:
That you can engage in rituals and attach no religious significance to them. Like burning incense, chanting, brushing your teeth, doing Yoga, dressing up like a tart for Halloween. Those sorts of things.

Yeah, OK. But who is questioning this and why is this relevant to the discussion about religious rituals? What you wrote above is certainly not what Jean is saying. But you know that right?

Jean Gatti wrote:
When a ritual is accomplished in full presence and awareness, then it is a real 'meditation' in action ...

A ritual is repetition....which has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence.

Let it Be

Tom Paine wrote:
A ritual is repetition....which has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence.

Yes. On the contrary repetition is mind numbing.

"ritual" from Merriam Webster dictionary: an act or series of acts regularly repeated in a set precise manner.

Let it Be

Tom Paine wrote:
A ritual is repetition....which has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence.

It has nothing to do with 'mind' ... it is all about 'presence' ...

... therefore a ritual without understanding its purpose, will be very boring (and numbing) for the mind ... like 'meditation' is boring for most people ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Wed, 08 Feb 2017.

Ken B wrote:
That you can engage in rituals and attach no religious significance to them. Like burning incense, chanting, brushing your teeth, doing Yoga, dressing up like a tart for Halloween. Those sorts of things.

Well said Ken ... like the 'tea ritual' in Japan ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

Jean Gatti wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

A ritual is repetition....which has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence.
It has nothing to do with 'mind' ... it is all about 'presence' ...

Nothing to do with mind? Well where is all this repetition...concentration... taking place then? Who decided to practice the ritual if not 'mind'/thought? A religious ritual also has a goal in ' mind', otherwise why engage in it?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 08 Feb 2017.

Jean Gatti wrote:
It has nothing to do with 'mind' ... it is all about 'presence' ...

This is absurd. Do you just make this stuff up for the hell of it or what? The problem seems to be Jean that you want to include what you think K is saying along with keeping all of your other beliefs. You will have to let go of your catholic upbringing, your religious conditioning, if you are going to understand anything K pointed out.

How can you understand conditioning and be free of it if you keep protecting and rationalizing it?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 08 Feb 2017.

Ken B wrote:
Even a stone deaf atheist would detect something when entering say the Swaminarayanan Akshardham in Robbinsville, New Jersey, the largest Hindu temple in the world.

What you detect is a long history of tradition. Like walking into Notre Dame in Paris. I didn't feel very much personally but I know a lot of people do. Most have built up an image of the church and when they finally see it there is an impact. Nothing about this furthers understanding or opens the door to "truth".

Jean Gatti wrote:
Well said Ken ... like the 'tea ritual' in Japan ...

Yes it's a ritual, a habit, a ceremony, a tradition but what do these have to do with understanding yourself, your conditioning? Nothing. They just bring a false security to the mind at best.

Jack Pine wrote:
Nothing about this furthers understanding or opens the door to "truth".

Of course some of the cathedrals and temples are mind boggling, but the idea that the awe one feels inside a beautiful cathedral happens because God resides there is pure imagination. It's like the awe one feels when one sees the empire state building in Manhattan....or the NY skyline from the Staten Island ferry. That's mind boggling too, but it's not going to help man be free of his violence. The Nazis were fans of spectacular architecture too....and Wagner s operas which used to stir Hitler into ecstasy. Was that anything to do with God or truth? (Rhetorical question)

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 08 Feb 2017.

Jack Pine wrote:
Nothing

(!)

whatsoever to do with understanding.

Let it Be

Tom Paine wrote:
Well where is all this repetition...concentration... taking place then?

Not 'concentration' Tom ... but attention ... and presence ...

In a ritual mind/thought is not used ... the ritual action is performed without thinking to it (like walking, you don't have to think in order to walk) ... just attention and presence ... no thought

Tom, sorry to ask but you do not seem to understand the meaning of the word 'presence', do you ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Wed, 08 Feb 2017.

Jean Gatti wrote:
Tom, sorry to ask but you do not seem to understand the meaning of the word 'presence', do you ?

Jean, I respectfully have to agree with what some other members have said in the past....it's a dead end discussing this further with you. You are totally misinterpreting K's teaching, and mixing it up with various religious practices and rituals that you believe in, which have zero to do with the 'teachings'.

Let it Be

Tom Paine wrote:
it's a dead end discussing this further with you.

Do you have some unmet expectations maybe ? which might irritate you ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

Tom Paine wrote:
mixing it up with various religious practices and rituals that you believe in

Which "religious practices and rituals" are you referring to Tom ?

??

Let us stick to facts ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

Tom Paine wrote:
Jean, I respectfully have to agree with what some other members have said in the past....it's a dead end discussing this further with you. You are totally misinterpreting K's teaching, and mixing it up with various religious practices and rituals that you believe in, which have zero to do with the 'teachings'.

No offense Tom, but it took you a long time. But it is never too late...:-)

Jean Gatti wrote:
Let us stick to facts ...

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

Mark Twain

:-)

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Wed, 08 Feb 2017.

Jean why not stop resisting and consider that instead of being driven by conditioning you can understand that all of your beliefs, all of your knowledge, whether religious or otherwise, are what conditions the brain. Knowledge conditions the brain.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 09 Feb 2017.