Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The false environment ?


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Mon, 06 Feb 2017 #31
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3006 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
You are not seeing what is when you are preoccupied with resisting or not resisting what is.

AND the idea of accepting or not resisting is of course only an idea.... another resistance. As you pointed out....there is only the fact of what is.....whatever it is. No concept can touch it.

Let it Be

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Mon, 06 Feb 2017 #32
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
AND the idea of accepting or not resisting is of course only an idea.... another resistance.

Yes Tom, everything we say here are 'ideas' ... however most people are unaware of their resistance to 'what is' ... and when you are unaware of a fact, it is impossible to observe/see it ...

Why does one resist 'what is' is a key question to ask ... The problem is not to say "I should not do that" because this would of course be another resistance to 'what is' ... but to SEE it ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 06 Feb 2017 #33
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 207 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Rich Nolet wrote:

Find the truth of what is first.

Jean Gatti wrote:
What do you mean by that ?

You said : better accept what is. But what is the true or the truth of what is ? And when one find the truth of what is , then there is no question about accepting or denying it. That is what I meant. Aren't we confusing real life with dialogue ? In a dialogue, I can accept or deny what is said, whether I see it as false or true. This is not a resistance, it is a discussion. In real life, in our very existence, if I see my anger, as an example, or your sadness,or the war, do I deny it, accept it, or understand it ? The what is cannot be accepted or deny: it is what is. Do we see and understand what is is the question ?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Mon, 06 Feb 2017.

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Mon, 06 Feb 2017 #34
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3006 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
and when you are unaware of a fact, it is impossible to observe/see it ...

But if you have labeled it as resistance, that label becomes a barrier to observation....more knowledge. The label is a barrier to observation.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 06 Feb 2017.

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Mon, 06 Feb 2017 #35
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
The what is cannot be accepted or deny: it is what is.

Well I question that.

Let us take a simple example from this forum. If I say something that irritates or shocks you, you might react emotionally, and even in some cases as seen here quite often, even insult me.

Isn't this emotional reaction a resistance to 'what is' (in this case 'what is' being the statement that irritates you) ? and of course this emotional reaction, once it appears within yourself, also becomes 'what is' ... and can be seen/observed too ... or even resisted (repressed) by saying "I should not be irritated" ... which is indeed another resistance to 'what is' ...

All this is quite simple, no ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 06 Feb 2017 #36
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But if you have labeled it as resistance, that label becomes a barrier to observation. The label is a resistance.

But you don't need to label to SEE it ... you can observe (and feel) your own resistance without labelling it ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 06 Feb 2017 #37
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 207 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Rich Nolet wrote:

The what is cannot be accepted or deny: it is what is.

This is just a part of what I said, out of context. Please read more carefully. I said:

Rich Nolet wrote:
You said : better accept what is. But what is the true or the truth of what is ? And when one find the truth of what is , then there is no question about accepting or denying it. That is what I meant. Aren't we confusing real life with dialogue ? In a dialogue, I can accept or deny what is said, whether I see it as false or true. This is not a resistance, it is a discussion. In real life, in our very existence, if I see my anger, as an example, or your sadness,or the war, do I deny it, accept it, or understand it ? The what is cannot be accepted or deny: it is what is. Do we see and understand what is is the question ?

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Mon, 06 Feb 2017 #38
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 207 posts in this forum Offline

Lol...Ken, I must say that I thought you were jocking. K. had this sense of humour alright.

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Mon, 06 Feb 2017 #39
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
In a dialogue, I can accept or deny what is said, whether I see it as false or true. This is not a resistance, it is a discussion.

When what is said irritates you, even in a dialogue, it is a resistance ... but do not forget that whatever irritates you is an opportunity to learn something on yourself :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 06 Feb 2017 #40
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 207 posts in this forum Offline

Do not accept whatever I say without seeing it by yourself :-)

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Mon, 06 Feb 2017 #41
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4841 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Rich Nolet wrote:
The what is cannot be accepted or deny: it is what is.

Jean Gatti wrote:

Well I question that.

Of course you do Jean because you don't see the simple fact of what Rich is pointing out to you. You have no idea what "what is" is referring to because you have idealized the phrase instead of actually understanding what is.

What is is everything that is happening, right or wrong, good or bad which are just terms of evaluation based on one's conditioning. See what is without introducing choices or judgements to it. That is what choiceless awareness is.

You have a concept of what is that is narrow and idealized. Resisting what is IS part of what is. But because you don't understand "what is" you don't see this.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 06 Feb 2017.

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Mon, 06 Feb 2017 #42
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4841 posts in this forum Offline

Ken don't be such a wise ass. You are not nearly as sharp as you think you are.

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #43
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
What is is everything that is happening

Yes, 'what is' is Jean going on posting in this forum despite Jack's fierce resistance to this ... and this resistance is also part of 'what is' :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Tue, 07 Feb 2017.

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #44
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 553 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Yes, 'what is' is Jean going on posting in this forum despite Jack's fierce resistance to this ... and this resistance is also part of 'what is' :-)

Jean, I don't really think that this dynamic actually furthers our understanding of Krishnamurti's teachings. Would it be possible to have a certain sense of communion, in the way Krishnamurti defined it, in our exchanges here?

Here is Krishnamurti talking about communion:

"There is, I think, a great deal of difference between communication and communion. In communication there is a sharing of ideas through words, pleasant or unpleasant, through symbols, through gestures; and ideas can be translated ideologically, or interpreted according to one's own peculiarities, idiosyncrasies and background. But in communion I think there is something quite different taking place. In communion there is no sharing or interpretation of ideas. You may or may not be communicating through words, but you are directly in relationship with that which you are observing; and you are communing with your own mind, with your own heart. One may commune with a tree, for example, or with a mountain, or a river. I do not know if you have ever sat beneath a tree and really tried to commune with it. It is not sentimentality, it is not emotionalism: you are directly in contact with the tree. There is an extraordinary intimacy of relationship. In such communion there must be silence, there must be a deep sense of quietness; your nerves, your body are at rest; the heart itself almost comes to a stop. There is no interpretation, there is no communication, no sharing. The tree is not you, nor are you identified with the tree: there is only this sense of intimacy in a great depth of silence. I do not know if you have ever tried it. Try it sometime - when your mind is not chattering, not wandering all over the place, when you are not soliloquizing, when you are not remembering the things that have been done or that must be done. Forgetting all that, just try communing with a mountain, with a stream, with a person, with a tree, with the very movement of life. That demands an astonishing sense of stillness, and a peculiar attention - not concentration, but an attention which comes with ease, with pleasure."

SAANEN 3RD PUBLIC TALK 16TH JULY 1964

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #45
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Would it be possible to have a certain sense of communion

Can there be 'communion' when there is resistance to 'what is' ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #46
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 553 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Can there be 'communion' when there is resistance to 'what is' ?

I don't know Jean. However, I think that just repeating this phrase over and over again doesn't foster communication, communion or mutual understanding.

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #47
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
However, I think that just repeating this phrase over and over again doesn't foster communication, communion or mutual understanding.

Do you mean that "repetition" irritates you Sean ?

... then I have to ask you why ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Tue, 07 Feb 2017.

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #48
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3006 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Sean Hen wrote:

However, I think that just repeating this phrase over and over again doesn't foster communication, communion or mutual understanding.

J: Do you mean that "repetition" irritates you Sean ?

T: Where do you read irritation in Sean's statement? Why not address his point?

Let it Be

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #49
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3006 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

But if you have labeled it as resistance, that label becomes a barrier to observation. The label is a resistance.

J: But you don't need to label to SEE it ... you can observe (and feel) your own resistance without labelling it ...

T: Can you give an example, Jean? Let's say I'm worried and anxious about my relationship with my wife or worried about some issue at my job. This leads to a smoking habit which is bad for my health. How do I observe the whole issue here? What is the resistance? Are you saying that there's resistance to observing my worry/fear....my emotions? Or is the resistance in my relationship with my wife..or resisting at work? You throw this word 'resistance' around a whole lot. But what does it actually point to in my daily living? I'm not sure what you're pointing to when you speak of observing and feeling the resistance above.

Let it Be

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #50
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4841 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
J: Do you mean that "repetition" irritates you Sean ?

T: Where do you read irritation in Sean's statement? Why not address his point?

Because Jean would rather perpetuate discord on this forum He would rather try to irritate others instead of communicating or communing with them. Even Jean realizes that a growing number of people on this forum are not accepting his shallow reactions and misunderstandings and would rather this be a place of discussion and understanding instead of one where one person is trying to dominate the topics with drivel.

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #51
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4841 posts in this forum Offline

Ken instead of hiding behind computer graphics join the discussion with dialogue not cartoons. Grow up son. This is suppose to be an adult forum. Treat it like one. If not I'm sure there are plenty of video games you could be playing.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 07 Feb 2017.

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #52
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 553 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
J: Do you mean that "repetition" irritates you Sean ?

T: Where do you read irritation in Sean's statement? Why not address his point?

Hi Tom, Jean and others. As Tom pointed out, there was no irritation in my statement and I must say I didn't feel much or any irritation when I wrote it. My point was that if somebody continues to repeat a statement like "Why resist what is?" or any other one, it probably makes it difficult to communicate let alone commune, explore together and discover something new. Didn't Krishnamurti talk about putting aside everything we knew before starting to explore together? Obviously, this is not easy to do but as far as I can make out this is what Krishnamurti did. He didn't accumulate knowledge but continually approached life with new eyes discovering things over and over again.

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #53
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
My point was that if somebody continues to repeat a statement like "Why resist what is?" or any other one, it probably makes it difficult to communicate let alone commune, explore together and discover something new.

Doesn't repetition create irritation because one remains in the 'communication' field ? ... expecting new information that mind can process ? ... repetition implies no new information, therefore mind cannot process anything and comes to a stop ie. presence and 'communion' ... this is why repetitive rituals are used in all religions, they call for your presence and mind stop ... but when you get irritated, you miss this presence and mind comes back by the backdoor ... for mind, repetition is totally useless and therefore very 'irritating' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Tue, 07 Feb 2017.

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #54
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Ken B wrote:
Nothing irritates me, not even Jack Pine.

Then you must be an enlightened person Ken :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #55
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Are you saying that there's resistance to observing my worry/fear....my emotions?

No, the worry/fear itself IS the resistance Tom ... because you project situations that 'should be' or 'could be' which are in conflict with 'what actually IS' ... when you worry or fear you live in time, there is no presence ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #56
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3006 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
repetition implies no new information

Nothing new being seen implies dullness, no?

Jean Gatti wrote:
this is why repetitive rituals are used in all religions, they call for your presence and mind stop ... b

Hmmmm... you're implying religious rituals have some value?

Let it Be

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #57
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3006 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
No, the worry/fear itself IS the resistance Tom

Then you said, "you can observe (and feel) your own resistance without labelling it ..."

So you're speaking of observing fear or anger or any emotional reaction that's present without the mind recognizing it as fear or anger? Because as soon as it's labeled, there's an immediate condemnation or justification. "Anger is wrong", or "I should not be angry", for instance. All our knowledge of what fear or anger is all about kicks in and there is more reacting....a chain reaction of thought reacting to thought. Of course this thinking is not observation.

Let it Be

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #58
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Because as soon as it's labeled, there's an immediate condemnation or justification.

Not necessarily a condemnation, but at least pure observation (and attention) ends and is replaced by some 'knowledge' from the past ... there is no 'discovery' any more ... when something is 'known' you don't need to pay attention any more, as you 'know' what it is ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #59
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Nothing new being seen implies dullness, no?

That's what mind says, because mind always looks for new 'information' ... but is it so ? ... isn't 'presence' always 'new' ? always 'renewed' ? isn't the 'miracle' of life, of being alive, interesting enough ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 07 Feb 2017 #60
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Hmmmm... you're implying religious rituals have some value?

Well certainly when they imply that they bring you back to presence, which is their very purpose ...

Anything that brings you back to presence has 'value' ... anything that 'distracts' you and projects you in time and thought and excitement only breeds more disorder ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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