Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Meditation


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Thu, 01 Nov 2018 #181
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Maybe humans cannot change. Maybe that's the simple truth - we cannot change.

Hi Jamie

Everybody approaches a 'teaching' like this in their own way, from where we are psychologically. Over time if we continue to be interested, our understanding can deepen e.g. things that I thought I had understood, I now see that I didn't. I think most, if not all of us start from 'greed'. I want something that I feel I don't have and maybe this 'teaching' will give it to me. Maybe I'll 'get' the "change" that K. and others talk about: enlightenment, satori, freedom from the known, peace, love, intelligence, wisdom, etc... But behind the search is 'greed', I feel that I don't have this talked about state, and I want it. Same as 'success', money, power, status, position,I want it so I try to figure out 'how' to 'follow' the teaching that I hope will get me 'there'. As I see it, that's the road of 'greed' and as long as I continue down that path, I'm heading in the 'wrong' direction and the suffering will continue and there can be no 'change'. Awareness, as it has been described, is seeing that one is on one of the many wrong 'roads' and to stop going down them.

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Thu, 01 Nov 2018 #182
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1262 posts in this forum Offline

Now ,after all these discussions about meditation ,is there such a thing as meditation? Apparently the present meditation that is advocated around the world in merely a business. It has no value. Krishnamurti says meditation is the understanding of life. Understanding of life is not the same as understanding English or any other language. Understanding is none verbal. So there is no meditation taking place in kinfonet because it is all verbal English.
Words are agitation therefore they never lead to peace and tranquility. Religions have tried to bring peace to man through words but instead words created wars and divisions.

This post was last updated by One Self Thu, 01 Nov 2018.

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Fri, 02 Nov 2018 #183
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Awareness, as you say, is seeing that one is on one of the many wrong roads and to stop going down them.

Hi Jamie

It's not my description of awareness...are you saying that you think K.'s 'teaching' is a 'wrong road'? I know U.G. Krishnamurti has described it derogatorily as taking "Krishnamurti's Charter Tour"...What is it that you think is false about it if you do? That it doesn't work?

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Fri, 02 Nov 2018 #184
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I think most, if not all of us start from 'greed'. I want something that I feel I don't have and maybe this 'teaching' will give it to me. Maybe I'll 'get' the "change" that K. and others talk about: enlightenment, satori, freedom from the known, peace, love, intelligence, wisdom, etc...

Hi Dan and all. Do we start from greed? What about suffering? In my early twenties, I thought what K said made an awful lot of sense. What he said about the pain and dependency which attachment caused seemed to be very, very true and reflected what I was going through at the time. The teachings seemed to be quite simply a more intelligent way to live. We want to avoid suffering, but is that greed?

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Fri, 02 Nov 2018.

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Fri, 02 Nov 2018 #185
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Do we start from greed? What about suffering? In my early twenties, I thought what K said made an awful lot of sense. What he said about the pain and dependency which attachment caused seemed to be very, very true and reflected what I was going through at the time. The teachings seemed to be quite simply a more intelligent way to live. We want to avoid suffering, but is that greed?

Hi Sean

I think so, but only in the sense that you were looking for a way out of the psychological suffering you were going through. Looking outside of yourself for a way to get rid of what was going on in you and get back to a psychological place where there was no suffering. That's a form of greed I would say: wanting something 'better' than what you have. So we reach 'out' for 'help'. But then when you listen to what K says about dependency and the inevitable pain that accompanies it and that no-one but yourself can 'do' anything about it, you're no longer looking outside for relief but understand the problem is in you, that 'you' are the 'problem'...So 'greed' for a better, more comfortable, 'enlightened, peaceful state etc leads me to K.'s teaching but what happens after that seems to be a matter of earnestness, energy, luck, and maybe even karma?

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Sat, 03 Nov 2018 #186
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
but if one has the temerity to question them, the discussion here can turn dark.

I think it's "dark" Jamie, if we don't question them as deeply as possible. "Veneration" is not how I feel about K., respect yes. I read everything I could find by U.G. years ago and found him to be very persuasive. I think what he meant by that quote is that K.'s teaching is an interesting 'ride'. I believe that he spent a lot of time in his company.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 03 Nov 2018.

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Sat, 03 Nov 2018 #187
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
jamie f wrote:

but if one has the temerity to question them, the discussion here can turn dark.
I think it's "dark" Jamie, if we don't question them as deeply as possible. "Veneration" is not how I feel about K., respect yes. I read everything I could find by U.G. years ago and found him to be very persuasive. I

Probably Jamie meant by ‘dark’, that if you question the validity of teachings on the forum, you yourself may be attacked for being ‘anti-K’. U.G. used to insult K all the time behind his back....and challenge him pretty harshly in person too. I could never make head nor tails of U.G. though I haven’t looked at his writings for like 25 years or more.

Let it Be

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Sat, 03 Nov 2018 #188
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Probably Jamie meant by ‘dark’, that if you question the validity of teachings on the forum, you yourself may be attacked for being ‘anti-K’.

Hi Tom

I did understand what Jamie meant by "dark" as being what you said, but in terms of 'light', unless it's all gone into as deeply as one can (and that seems to be never-ending!) in oneself the 'darkness' of dependance, identification, fear, will persist. The intellect can toss off K. 'sayings' with ease and there is a certain enjoyment in that but it's only the coming 'face to face' with what is going on in oneself that can dissolve the 'darkness'. So it is here with me in any case. As far as those who feel they must defend K. against the 'Philistines' who dare to question his teaching, I say make it civil and intelligent and maybe we all can benefit from the exchange.

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Sun, 04 Nov 2018 #189
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
So 'greed' for a better, more comfortable, 'enlightened, peaceful state etc leads me to K.'s teaching but what happens after that seems to be a matter of earnestness, energy, luck, and maybe even karma?

Hi Dan. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean here (the last part of the sentence).

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Sun, 04 Nov 2018 #190
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Dan McDermott wrote:

So 'greed' for a better, more comfortable, 'enlightened, peaceful state etc leads me to K.'s teaching but what happens after that seems to be a matter of earnestness, energy, luck, and maybe even karma?

Sean: Hi Dan. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean here (the last part of the sentence).

Dan: I think what was meant is that this is all in the 'hands' of the self, the past accumulations that create the on going sensation of a permanent entity: 'me'. The needs, the aspirations, the desires...the 'bundle'. Because of the inherent insecurity of this image of self, it is always seeking more safety and protection. In this case K.'s teaching seems like it may be the ultimate answer. But of course K.'s teaching is not a means to 'buttress' the ego but to undermine it. So whether one 'goes all the way' with it depends on a variety of possibilities in which our individual backgrounds may play a role. (I know nothing about 'karma')

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 04 Nov 2018.

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Sun, 04 Nov 2018 #191
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
But of course K.'s teaching is not a means to 'buttress' the ego but to undermine it. So whether one 'goes all the way' with it depends on a variety of possibilities in which our individual backgrounds may play a role. (I know nothing about ‘karma’

Would you say it’s out of our hands, Dan? Or is this ‘earnestness’ something ‘I’ can do? Because the more I make an effort to do something here, the more I muddy the waters, or so it seems to me.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 04 Nov 2018.

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Sun, 04 Nov 2018 #192
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
To venerate K is to misunderstand him. Some of the things he said require careful scrutiny because they don't hold water but if one has the temerity to question them, the discussion here can turn dark.

Of course, to venerate K is to give him authority which means on some level there is faith rather than questioning. Obviously K said to question what he said, to investigate for yourself. Whether or not you do this is up to you.

Most people who venerate K would claim that they do not venerate K. They would claim that they do not have an image of K. They cannot see that their ideas about him or their understandings of him are in contradiction to what he taught. They cannot see that thinking so highly of him and what he said is making him an authority. Therefore they do not undertake the hard work of really going deeply into matters for themselves.

I have definitely questioned here on this forum. For example, I had a long thread about K's superstitions. I was amazed at the way K defenders pounced. It was much more important to them to defend their image of K than to question, for example, the existence of fairies. If you feel the need to believe fairies may exist because you have an image of the infallibility of K, then you venerate him, despite your denial that you venerate him. But to see such a contradiction in yourself is nearly impossible.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 04 Nov 2018.

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Sun, 04 Nov 2018 #193
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Or is this ‘earnestness’ something ‘I’ can do?

Hi Tom

Yes when 'I' want to get something. But here it's not a matter of 'getting anything' is it? Here it's a matter of earnestly 'seeing' what is going on', of seeing how thought creates the observer/observed duality. So maybe the 'earnestness' (not mine or yours) is in the seeing how thought 'moves' creating a fictional psychological 'time': a past, present and future where it has no place and creates conflict by its very movement in that realm where 'emptiness' is called for?

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Sun, 04 Nov 2018 #194
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

idiot?: I have definitely questioned here on this forum. For example, I had a long thread about K's superstitions. I was amazed at the way K defenders pounced.

Yes, I recall that subject being mentioned. Personally speaking, I was quite stunned by some of the superstitions of K. that were mentioned in Mark Lee’s book about his association with K. I think Mrs. Zimbalist mentioned one or two odd rituals of K in her book as well. I have nothing to add other than I found this quite odd. Especially a ‘cleansing’ ritual to get rid of ‘negative energy’ that K supposedly performed before entering a strange new hotel room during his travels with Mrs. Z.

Let it Be

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Sun, 04 Nov 2018 #195
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1262 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
U.G. used to insult K all the time behind his back....and challenge him pretty harshly in person too. I could never make head nor tails of U.G. though I haven’t looked at his writings for like 25 years or more.

Do you have any evidence for above statement? And what does challenged him very harshly mean? And I doubt if Krishnamurti ever went to see UG!

This post was last updated by One Self Sun, 04 Nov 2018.

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Sun, 04 Nov 2018 #196
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

MW: Do you have any evidence for above statement? And what does challenged him very harshly mean?

No, only my memory. Not that it matters on a forum discussing the teachings of J.K. I recall UG referred to JK as ‘that Victorian bore’. Anyone interested can search online for biographical info on UG and info on his interactions with JK shouldn’t be hard to find in there somewhere.

Let it Be

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Sun, 04 Nov 2018 #197
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1262 posts in this forum Offline

Found the link for ug /jk . Can anybody understand what he says. His Indian accent is distracting. He doesn't want to pronounce english words correctly!
https://youtu.be/DPl9pEVHPgw

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Mon, 05 Nov 2018 #198
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
If you feel the need to believe fairies may exist because you have an image of the infallibility of K, then you venerate him, despite your denial that you venerate him

Oh dear. Looks like the fairies are back. Seeing as Krishnamurti spoke for many, many years against "belief" of any kind, it would seem strange if any of us here believed in fairies or anything else for that matter but I suppose belief is a difficult thing to just put aside. My stance on the question of "fairies" was that it was possible that Krishnamurtio was in contact with things we couldn't understand. Does that mean that I venerate him? I do think that it's very strange and difficult to explain that Krishnamurti could see things with such stunning clarity and at the same time be deluded by wild superstitions but of course anything is possible. There are questions here that I think are worth exploring but perhaps not on this thread.

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Mon, 05 Nov 2018.

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Mon, 05 Nov 2018 #199
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
it's very strange and difficult to explain that Krishnamurti could see things with such stunning clarity and at the same time be deluded by wild superstitions but of course anything is possible.

Strange as it may be, that is what the evidence suggests (based on reports from Mary Zimbalist and others). Perhaps it is not so strange. Why shouldn't someone have deep insights into some things and not into other things? For example, Isaac Newton had revolutionary insight into physics, optics, and mathematics but he also spent a lot of time on "occult studies": alchemy and trying to unravel what he thought were coded messages in the bible. Anyway, we went into the K superstition question on the other thread, which can always be resurrected if anyone wishes.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 05 Nov 2018.

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Mon, 05 Nov 2018 #200
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1262 posts in this forum Offline

Superstitions are the main cause of human ignorance and misery. Religions are based on superstition and fear. people killed black cats In 1600 out of superstition and the rats took over their cities. In Africa there are people who have HIV and believe that if they have sex with a young girl they will get cured . The list goes on and on. Science denies all superstitions that exist in India and in the East. K was a scientist so the rest is clear.

This post was last updated by One Self Mon, 05 Nov 2018.

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Wed, 07 Nov 2018 #201
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Most people who venerate K would claim that they do not venerate K. They would claim that they do not have an image of K.

Some of us may or may not have an image about K. It's seems more difficult to have an image of someone who doesn't have an image of himself. If you have seen K in a talk or in a private setting that might be more clear.

At any rate you also have an image of K. Only your image is based on second and third hand knowledge from what others have said about K. You seem to be on a crusade to show us all how clever you are and of how contradictory K was. What do you really know first hand about K?

If you are interested in who K was why not go to the source and study his own words instead of dwelling on the opinions and reports of others?

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Wed, 07 Nov 2018 #202
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
If you are interested in who K was why not go to the source and study his own words

Obviously I have, in great detail. But since apparently I have not reached certain conclusions that you have, you cannot see it.

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Wed, 07 Nov 2018 #203
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Obviously I have, in great detail. But since apparently I have not reached certain conclusions that you have, you cannot see it.

It's not really that obvious. I'm not reaching my own conclusions so much as I am questioning your conclusions.

By the way, have you listened to that YouTube tape that Sean put on here a couple of hours ago of K talking about "the masters" that Alain N asked him about? It's interesting even though Alain N keeps interrupting K when the latter is trying to explain. I only got through the first 10 minutes before I had to do something else. Maybe eventually Alain shuts up long enough to let K speak.

The reason I brought this up is because K was talking about "relevancy" of the question about "masters". And I have been asking about the relevancy of your superstition conclusions and gratitude conclusions.

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Wed, 07 Nov 2018 #204
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1262 posts in this forum Offline

The Six points of Conduct which are specially required are given by the Master as:
1- Self-control as to the Mind.
2- Self-control in Action.
3- Tolerance.
4- Cheerfulness.
5- One-pointedness.
at the feet of the Master j krishnamurti.

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Wed, 07 Nov 2018 #205
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Wrote wrote:
at the feet of the Master j krishnamurti

Written at the age of 14 years !

"Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path."

The Dissolution of the Order of the Star
Star Camp at Ommen, Holland | August 2, 1929

In the mean time he must have lost his faith, get rit of the
rubbish, luggage that was unnecessarily dragged along.

Is here something gained, reached, accumulated or ......??

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Wed, 07 Nov 2018 #206
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1262 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Myself Wrote wrote:

at the feet of the Master j krishnamurti

Written at the age of 14 years !

Most of us in here haven't reached that age mentally so it fits.;=)

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Wed, 07 Nov 2018 #207
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1262 posts in this forum Offline

“So you must do right for the sake of the right, not in the hope of reward; you must work for the sake of the work, not in the hope of seeing the result; you must give yourself to the service of the world because you love it, and cannot help giving yourself to it.”
? Jiddu Krishnamurti, At the Feet of the Master.

Truth is timeless.

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Thu, 08 Nov 2018 #208
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Wrote wrote:
Wim Opdam wrote:

Myself Wrote wrote:
at the feet of the Master j krishnamurti
Written at the age of 14 years !

Most of us in here haven't reached that age mentally so it fits.;=)

That seems to me a conclusion about the state of being of most people, and in what would that fit.?

the detail that fits in the whole and in which whole is that?
your whole of a limited worldview. ?

besides, it is questionable whether the text of alcyone has not been precooked by leadbeather or others within the theosophical society, even the texts edited by rajagopal, a man who has fallen back into the theosophical society in old age or perhaps never has left that ideology.

what is clear is that only the audio and video tapes are 100% reliable.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Thu, 08 Nov 2018 #209
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
It was an intelligent, highly articulate man approaching middle age who was perhaps dragging along quite a bit of luggage.

Or was most likely dragging no baggage at all. When you talk to people for over 60 years telling them that there is an unconditioned existence while, you yourself, are still conditioned then what does that make you? It makes you a hypocrite and a fraud who is only talking theories instead of something that is actual? Are you and others on this forum suggesting that K was a fraud?

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Thu, 08 Nov 2018 #210
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
""One day a teacher who has been giving sermons for many years before a small and elect audience, one day as he got onto the platform, he saw a little bird come and sit on the porch or the window, on the sill, and it began to sing; and it sang for several minutes. At the end of it, it flew away, and the teacher said, 'This morning's sermon is over'. I wish we could do the same here now! That would be lovely, wouldn't it? At least it would be for me." Krishnamurti"

At some point, someone started feeding K Zen stories. Had he known they were Zen Buddhist stories, he likely never would have repeated them, because he clearly spoke out against organized religion, including Buddhism. You can find quite a few of these retold Zen stories in the 1001 Lunches book. K obviously liked them and must not have known that they came from a religious tradition. So he repeated them.

Even if you don't know that this song bird sermon story refers to a Zen Master's non-sermon, there are tell-tale signs in the story: It's about a religious teacher! Since when does K endorse spiritual teachers or encourage listening to sermons?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 08 Nov 2018.

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