Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

Meditation


Displaying posts 181 - 193 of 193 in total
Fri, 03 Feb 2017 #181
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
In the UK it's an expression of familiarity.

No problem then :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 03 Feb 2017 #182
Thumb_stringio jamie f United Kingdom 47 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
Observation itself does not take time ... what takes time is about thinking (judging, evaluating, rejecting etc) of what is observed

There is an interval of time between something and the emotional reaction to it and therefore if you are observing a reaction then basically you are observing the past. But I may be mistaken and, actually, I don't mind being mistaken as this is part of the learning process. After all, if one is always right there is no opportunity to learn anything.

'It's there, as if it were behind a curtain.'

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 04 Feb 2017 #183
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
There is an interval of time between something and the emotional reaction to it and therefore if you are observing a reaction then basically you are observing the past.

No, because the emotional reaction is what happens NOW ... therefore it is 'what is' ... here and now ... and when you observe what happens now (ie 'what is'), there is no time implied in this observation ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 04 Feb 2017 #184
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
After all, if one is always right there is no opportunity to learn anything.

What is this 'learning' we are speaking of Jamie ? Is it the accumulation of more knowledge, more information ? Don't you have already enough of that ?

Or is it something 'ganz andere', totally different ? Is it not something we have to 'unlearn' rather ?

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 04 Feb 2017 #185
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1154 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
jamie f wrote:

In the UK it's an expression of familiarity.
No problem then :-)

It would have been problem for you if it wasn't? :-)

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 04 Feb 2017 #186
Thumb_stringio jamie f United Kingdom 47 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
No, because the emotional reaction is what happens NOW ... therefore it is 'what is' ... here and now ... and when you observe what happens now (ie 'what is'), there is no time implied in this observation

There is no point in continuing this ad infinitum. We see this differently and that is that.

'It's there, as if it were behind a curtain.'

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 05 Feb 2017 #187
Thumb_stringio jamie f United Kingdom 47 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
What is this 'learning' we are speaking of Jamie ? Is it the accumulation of more knowledge, more information ? Don't you have already enough of that ?

Or is it something 'ganz andere', totally different ? Is it not something we have to 'unlearn' rather?

'Unlearn' is just another process that requires time. It is not the same as putting something down and simply walking away from it.

'It's there, as if it were behind a curtain.'

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Sun, 05 Feb 2017 #188
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4861 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Or is it something 'ganz andere', totally different ? Is it not something we have to 'unlearn' rather ?

No. It's not. Jamie f is correct. Unlearning is meaningless. Learning may be something quite different from what you think it is. Learning as K spoke of it is not the process of accumulation. It is something that is always complete and always in the present.

To understand what K means about essentially anything one has to first drop the old definitions, conditioning, opinions and beliefs. And then don't blindly accept what K is pointing out but find out, see it for yourself otherwise you are just repeating what K has said and that is meaningless.

What do we mean by learning?
Is there learning when you are merely accumulating knowledge, gathering information? That is one kind of learning, is it not? As a student of engineering, you study mathematics, and so on; you are learning, informing yourself about the subject. You are accumulating knowledge in order to use that knowledge in practical ways. Your learning is accumulative, additive. Now, when the mind is merely taking on, adding, acquiring, is it learning? Or is learning something entirely different? I say the additive process that we now call learning is not learning at all. It is merely a cultivation of memory, which becomes mechanical; and a mind that functions mechanically, like a machine, is not capable of learning. A machine is never capable of learning, except in the additive sense. Learning is something quite different, as I shall try to show you.
A mind that is learning never says, 'I know,' because knowledge is always partial, whereas learning is complete all the time. Learning does not mean starting with a certain amount of knowledge, and adding to it further knowledge. That is not learning at all; it is a purely mechanistic process. To me, learning is something entirely different. I am learning about myself from moment to moment, and the myself is extraordinarily vital; it is living, moving; it has no beginning and no end. When I say, 'I know myself,' learning has come to an end in accumulated knowledge. Learning is never cumulative; it is a movement of knowing which has no beginning and no end.
J. Krishnamurti, The Book of Life

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 05 Feb 2017 #189
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
'Unlearn' is just another process that requires time. It is not the same as putting something down and simply walking away from it.

But 'unlearning' simply means the dropping of all accumulated knowledge ... it does not require time at all ...what requires time is the 'recalling' of this memorized knowledge ... when one tries to 're-cognize' a situation by 'naming' (or 'labelling') it (which is knowledge) ... which means that you superimpose the past (ie knowledge) on a present situation ... and this process of 're-cognition' requires time ...

nb: btw the word re-cognition itself comes from ancient Greek 'cognos' which means 'knowledge'

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sun, 05 Feb 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 05 Feb 2017 #190
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
which means that you superimpose the past (ie knowledge) on a present situation

Now a new question arises:

WHY do we want to 're-cognize' present situation by assimilating this present moment to past situations (ie our knowledge) ?

Why do we do that ? Why do we want to 'know' ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 05 Feb 2017 #191
Thumb_stringio jamie f United Kingdom 47 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
But 'unlearning' simply means the dropping of all accumulated knowledge ... it does not require time at all ...what requires time is the 'recalling' of this memorized knowledge ... when one tries to 're-cognize' a situation by 'naming' (or 'labelling') it (which is knowledge) ... which means that you superimpose the past (ie knowledge) on a present situation ... and this process of 're-cognition' requires time

That is much better. You have moved quite some way from what you said in post #156:

Jean Gatti wrote:
self observation is key in the learning process

and moved much closer to what I said in post #171:

jamie f wrote:
Is there a learning process that is not dependent on time?

Which shows that already you have learned quite a lot, although I feel there is some way to go before you can do this without my help and guidance. (As you always take things too literally, however, I suppose I will have to explain that is a joke.)

Do you want to know what I have learned? Well, of course you do not otherwise you would have asked me already, but I will tell you anyway. I have learned that it's not whether or not you observe your self, it is not whether or not you experience peace and quiet, but rather, if thought puts together our reality, then meditation is discovering for oneself what is actually real.

And now, I will put this topic down and walk away from it.

'It's there, as if it were behind a curtain.'

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 05 Feb 2017 #192
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
I said in post #171:

jamie f wrote:
you said in post #156:

Do you need to prove something ? to enter into an argumentation of the kind "I am right and you are wrong" ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sun, 05 Feb 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 06 Feb 2017 #193
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4861 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Do you need to prove something ? to enter into an argumentation of the kind "I am right and you are wrong" ?

Jean when someone offers the olive branch of peace and extends their hand to you you don't spit in their face. You must be very lonely.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 181 - 193 of 193 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)