Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Mon, 23 Jan 2017 #121
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
And btw, didn't K say "You are the world" ... he did not say "you are the body" !

"you are the world" means the whole, NOT a limited fragment ...

Right the whole....the whole of mankind with all the beliefs, ideas, ideals, concepts (psychological), and so on, that makes up consciousness.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 23 Jan 2017.

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Mon, 23 Jan 2017 #122
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
"It identifies with the body, with the face; there is the identification of the 'me' with the name and with the form, which is the structure, and with the ideal which it wants to pursue." K.

Ideal or ideals which he identifies with.

Let it Be

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Mon, 23 Jan 2017 #123
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
with your body, with your gold and so on, all that is your consciousness, which is the content of the mind, with its brain (K)

This illustrates my point. No emphasis on the body as the primary identification....not that it's not one of many fragments which we identify with. But you're correct in that the first thing I think of when I think of 'me' is the body image....the feeling of being in a body....and my physical appearance. Of course if I start thinking of the big football game this weekend, then THAT becomes my identification...my identity, if I'm on the team. Thinking about growing my bank account and my stock portfolio, then that's part of 'me'. If I'm feeling depressed then that feeling and the associated thinking is me.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 24 Jan 2017.

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Thu, 26 Jan 2017 #124
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5707 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Kirshnamurti said many things and it is not difficult to find a quote that seemingly matches one's own approach. Very often a quote is produced which says "This is what I think and Krishnamurti thinks it too, so I cannot be wrong". Having said that, I produce a quote which is what I think and because Krishnamurti thinks it too, I cannot be wrong. (That, of course, is a joke.)

Good point Jamie. We do do this. I also appreciate your quote from K about meditation. I hope you have a place to walk in around where you live to enjoy Nature. It is so important to stay connected to Nature and so difficult to do that if one lives in a large city.

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Thu, 26 Jan 2017 #125
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote (quoting K):
K: "And this mind dictates the activity of the heart, and then the trouble begins."

Interesting K refers here to the "activity of the heart" ... which seems to be in conflict with the 'mind' ...

What is this "heart" K refers to in this statement ? Is it the physical heart ? or what ?

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 28 Jan 2017 #126
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 870 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Kirshnamurti said many things and it is not difficult to find a quote that seemingly matches one's own approach. Very often a quote is produced which says "This is what I think and Krishnamurti thinks it too, so I cannot be wrong".

Hi Jamie. Thanks for that great quote on meditation that you posted. I understand that we're here on this forum to further our understanding of K's teachings so posting quotes and debating would seem to be a very sensible approach to this. It's difficult to get away from an "I'm right and you're wrong" mindset at times. Do you feel that coming here and reading the contributions has ever helped further your understandings of K's teachings?

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Sun, 29 Jan 2017 #127
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5707 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Sometimes the anonymity of being in a city makes it easier to find solitude there.

Yes I suppose it does. But I was speaking of staying connected to Nature. To be away from everything Mankind has put together or invented. To be away from the hustle and routines of society.

Anonymity and solitude don't have to lead to loneliness but for some they do. I have never felt so separated from life as I have, on occasion, in a big city.

The Nature I was thinking of when I wrote about staying connected to it was the vast expanse of the Rocky Mountains in the Western US. It is so easy to melt back into the mountains and see or hear no one. Even here in winter in Ojai there is easy access to the remoteness of the hills and mountains that run east to west to the north of the Ojai Valley.

But I suppose one can stay connected to Nature anywhere they are if they can let go of the flow of collective consciousness while being steeped in the middle of it.

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Sun, 29 Jan 2017 #128
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
He would often talk about seeing with your 'guts'. But I don't think he meant his digestive system.

But then what does it mean exactly "seeing with your guts" or "seeing with the heart" ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 30 Jan 2017 #129
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

K.: Please understand this. It is logical, sane, rational because wherever you go, in whatever clime you live, whether you are affluent or degradingly poor, whether you believe in god, or in christ or in some other entity, the belief, the faith is common to all mankind. The picture may vary, the image may be different, the symbol may be totally different from another but that is common to all mankind. This is not a mere verbal statement. If you take it as a verbal statement, as an idea, as a concept, then you will not see the depth of it, the deep significance involved in this. The significance is that your consciousness is the consciousness of all humanity because you suffer, you are anxious, you are lonely, insecure, confused, exactly like another who lives ten thousand miles away from you. The realization of it, the feeling of it, the feeling in your guts if I may use that word, is totally different from mere verbal acceptance of that. When one realizes that you are the rest of mankind, it brings... you have a tremendous energy, you have broken through the narrow groove of individuality, the narrow circle of me and you, they and we. And we are going to examine together this very, very complex consciousness of man, not the European man, not the Asiatic man or the Middle East man, but this extraordinary movement that has been going on for millions of years as conscious movement in time.
Network of Thought, The

J. Krishnamurti First Public Talk in Saanen 12 July 1981

Heart ( wikipedia) : The heart is a word use to express the idea of the "heart" in its metaphorical or symbolic sense as *the center of emotion, including affection and love.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Mon, 30 Jan 2017.

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Mon, 30 Jan 2017 #130
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

So the feeling in your guts mean feeling something, being in an intimate touch with something. Not at an intellectual level, at the word level, but at the perception level, at an insight level, if I may say.

The heart is affection, love. And when K. say:

jamie f wrote:(quoting K.)
because our minds are so complicated, so time-worn and time-based. And this mind dictates the activity of the heart, and then the trouble begins.

...doesn't it means that our heart is corrupted by such a mind ? It seems so obvious.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Mon, 30 Jan 2017.

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Mon, 30 Jan 2017 #131
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 870 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
doesn't it means that our heart is corrupted by such a mind ? It seems so obvious.

Hi Rich. Thanks for your posts 145 and 147 which I thought brought a lot of clarity to what we're talking about.

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Tue, 31 Jan 2017 #132
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Do you feel that coming here and reading the contributions has ever helped further your understandings of K's teachings?

We learn more from the observation of our emotional reactions than from what is said ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 31 Jan 2017 #133
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Sean. Yes, I would say that talking together sometimes can clarify things, though one shouldn't accept anything without seeing it by ourself. One should never forget that words are poor things when it come to pointed to what is not words.

A quote from K. on intellect and feeling.

Intellect Corrupts Feeling
You know, there is the intellect, and there is pure feeling -the pure feeling of loving something, of having great, generous emotions. The intellect reasons, calculates, weighs, balances. It asks, 'Is it worthwhile? Will it give me benefit?' On the other hand, there is pure feeling,the extraordinary feeling for the sky, for your neighbor, for your wife or husband, for your child, for the world, for the beauty of a tree, and so on. When these two come together, there is death. Do you understand? When pure feeling is corrupted by the intellect, there is mediocrity. That is what most of us are doing. Our lives are mediocre because we are always calculating, asking ourselves whether it is worthwhile, what profit we will get, not only in the world of money, but also in the so-called spiritual world: 'If I do this, will I get that?'

J. Krishnamurti, The Book of Life

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Tue, 31 Jan 2017.

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Tue, 31 Jan 2017 #134
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 870 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
Yes, I would say that talking together sometimes can clarify things, though one shouldn't accept anything without seeing it by ourself. One should never forget that words are poor things when it come to pointed to what is not words.

Hi Rich. I think that what Krishnamurti says "rings true" on many levels, not just an intellectual one. When I read or listen to Krishnamurti I often get a feeling of "that's exactly true from my own observations". He seems to go further than most of us can and throw light on areas where we find it difficult to go. When he goes into the root of anger, for example, I can see that the process he is talking about takes place in me. After reading Krishnamurti my mind seems sharper and more aware of anger arising in me, at least for a time. Is this similar to how you feel when you read K?

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Tue, 31 Jan 2017 #135
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 870 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
We learn more from the observation of our emotional reactions than from what is said ...

Hi Jean. I'm sure that self-observation is indeed a source of great learning if one has the awareness needed to do it. Dialogue using words surely also has it's place.

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Tue, 31 Jan 2017 #136
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I think that what Krishnamurti says "rings true" on many levels, not just an intellectual one. When I read or listen to Krishnamurti I often get a feeling of "that's exactly true from my own observations.

Yes. Intellectual level is not observation. Someone point a fact to you. It doesn't mean much unless one can oberve it as a reality, in reality, in our daily life. Facts are observable. Otherwise, it is theories, concepts.

Sean Hen wrote:
When he goes into the root of anger, for example, I can see that the process he is talking about takes place in me. After reading Krishnamurti my mind seems sharper and more aware of anger arising in me, at least for a time. Is this similar to how you feel when you read K?

Not when reading K. The pointing of a fact, if it is observable, whether it is from K. or anyone else, makes his own way .

The root of anger, as he point out, is an indication of a conflict. So is it possible to observe anger, seeing that it is related to a conflict. Then our concern is to understanding the conflict, is it ?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Tue, 31 Jan 2017.

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Tue, 31 Jan 2017 #137
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 870 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
The root of anger, as he point out, is an indication of a conflict. So is it possible to observe anger, seeing that it is related to a conflict. Then our concern is to understanding the conflict, is it ?

Hi Rich. I think you have to explore this for yourself. Anger is there in all of us. Can you observe it rise in you, watch it? Maybe understand it?

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Tue, 31 Jan 2017 #138
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

K. about anger. I'll leave it on that Sean . Have a nice day.

Cessation of anger.

We have all, I am sure, tried to subdue anger but somehow that does not seem to dissolve it. Is there a different approach to dissipate anger?Anger may spring from physical or psychological causes. One is angry, perhaps, because one is thwarted, one's defensive reactions are being broken down, or one's security which has been carefully built up is being threatened, and so on. We are all familiar with anger. How is one to understand and dissolve anger? If you consider that your beliefs, concepts, opinions, are of the greatest importance, then you are bound to react violently when questioned. Instead of clinging to beliefs, opinions, if you begin to question whether they are essential to one's comprehension of life, then through the understanding of its causes there is the cessation of anger. Thus one begins to dissolve one's own resistances which cause conflict and pain. This again requires earnestness. We are used to controlling ourselves for sociological or religious reasons or for convenience, but to uproot anger requires deep awareness.
You say you are angry when you hear of injustice. Is it because you love humanity, because you are compassionate? Do compassion and anger dwell together? Can there be justice when there is anger, hatred? You are perhaps angry at the thought of general injustice, cruelty, but your anger does not alter injustice or cruelty; it can only do harm. To bring about order, you yourself have to be thoughtful, compassionate. Action born of hatred can only create further hatred. There can be no righteousness where there is anger. Righteousness and anger cannot dwell together.

J. Krishnamurti, The Book of Life

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Tue, 31 Jan 2017.

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Tue, 31 Jan 2017 #139
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Dialogue using words surely also has it's place.

Yet do not expect too much from dialogue ... self observation is key in the learning process ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 31 Jan 2017 #140
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Dialogue using words surely also has it's place.

Of course. All Krishnamurti's work is talks and dialogues.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Tue, 31 Jan 2017.

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Wed, 01 Feb 2017 #141
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 870 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
Of course. All Krishnamurti's work is talks and dialogues.

Hi Rich. We were talking about our dialogues here on this forum. Do they help us to further our understanding of Krishnamurti's teachings?

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Wed, 01 Feb 2017 #142
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

I would say yes. It make us go into it , sharing. Is it for you ?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Wed, 01 Feb 2017.

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Wed, 01 Feb 2017 #143
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 870 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
I would say yes. It make us go into , sharing. Is it for you ?

Hi again Rich. I agree that our dialogues here generally help further my understanding of K's teachings. Apart from all the quotes and videos of K which are posted and obviously give us direct contact with the teachings, there are definitely points in many discussions made by fellow forum members which I find useful and thought provoking if one can use that term here. Sometimes I read quite negative comments about the quality of the discussions here but I suppose most of us get something out of the time we spend here or we wouldn't keep coming back. Does anybody else have anything to say about this?

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Wed, 01 Feb 2017 #144
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Sometimes I read quite negative comments about the quality of the discussions here but I suppose most of us get something out of the time we spend here or we wouldn't keep coming back.

Isn't complaining a form of resistance ?

"Is not the mind, as we know it, an instrument developed for survival, for satisfaction, for self-protection, for resistance, and therefore the instrument of fear?"

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day | Feb 01, 2017

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 01 Feb 2017 #145
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5707 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Isn't complaining a form of resistance ?

Isn't constantly and boringly saying that anything that anyone says, except for you, is a form of resistance? Your constant harping on resistance has no meaning for anyone except you. It's just your opinion without any validity beyond that. For you, apparently, the only issue that counts for anything is "resisting what is". You're constant complaining about "resistance" is a form of resistance. But you don't see that do you?

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Wed, 01 Feb 2017 #146
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
You're constant complaining about "resistance" is a form of resistance. But you don't see that do you?

Just that you are making a confusion between the mere observation of facts and the resistance to facts ... there is no resistance in observing 'what is' Jack ... the resistance comes in when mind says that things "should not be" as they are ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 01 Feb 2017 #147
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 870 posts in this forum Offline

Hi everybody. Jean, can I ask if you feel that you further your understanding of Krishnamurti's teachngs by participating in dialogues here?

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Wed, 01 Feb 2017 #148
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Jean, can I ask if you feel that you further your understanding of Krishnamurti's teachngs by participating in dialogues here?

Yes, but as I said not so much by the content of discussions (which are sometimes interesting) than by the observation of emotional reactions, when people stick to their own beliefs, opinions and illusions and create conflicts out of that ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 01 Feb 2017 #149
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5707 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Just that you are making a confusion between the mere observation of facts and the resistance to facts ...

No Jean I'm not confused about what I wrote at all. But you seem to be confused in thinking that repeating the same things over and over again is somehow observing. It's not. Rather it is pulling response from your memory, which you believe are true, and then repeating by rote the concepts, the conclusions, the ideas that you have filed away in your memory.

When you tell others that they are resisting it is you who are resisting what others say instead of trying to understand what others are saying.

Your quick conclusions, opinions, to what others write is not the result of observing or understanding but simply a judgmental reaction.

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Wed, 01 Feb 2017 #150
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5707 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
there is no resistance in observing 'what is' Jack ... the resistance comes in when mind says that things "should not be" as they are ...

But Jean this is exactly what you are doing. You are resisting what others are saying by saying that what they say is resistance which implies that it should be something else. Namely non resistance.

You are not dealing with what others are trying to express, which may or may not be resistance, but with what you think should be which you label resistance or non resistance.

Do you see that you have made an ideal out of resistance?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 01 Feb 2017.

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