Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Meditation


Displaying posts 61 - 90 of 218 in total
Wed, 18 Jan 2017 #61
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Why don't we see that it will always lead to suffering when it works in the psychological realm?

We can now clarify what it means when thought operates in the 'psychological realm' ... it means there is some center (ie a self or ego) which distorts thought in order to 'control' things (the 'outside world') ... in other words when there is a resistance to 'what is' in order to make things conform to some 'should be' or expectations ...

When thought operates in the functional/technical field, there is no such resistance and thought creates no problem at all ... things are just what they are ... there is no distortion created ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 18 Jan 2017 #62
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
We can now clarify what it means when thought operates in the 'psychological realm' ...

Whew....that was easy. Now we're all free from conflicting thoughts and painful emotions ;)

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 18 Jan 2017.

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Wed, 18 Jan 2017 #63
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Whew....that was easy. Now we're all free from conflicting thoughts and painful emotions ;)

Let us say it is quite 'simple' indeed ... but not 'easy' :-)

It is like stopping a heavy truck running at full speed on the highway, it is not enough to turn off the engine to stop it ... but it helps in the end ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 19 Jan 2017 #64
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
The answer is that your superficial answers to everything, your memorized drivel, is killing any meaningful discussion on this forum.

"Criticism is only of value in so far as it trains your observation so that it can eventually be turned on yourself."

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day | Jan 19, 2017

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 19 Jan 2017 #65
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1378 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Do you not consider there to be any essential difference between 'choiceless awareness' and 'meditation'?

No in the sense that if there is a 'chooser' in awareness , it's not 'choiceless'. And if there is a 'meditator', it's not 'meditation'. These words are pointing at a 'state of mind' that can't be captured or controlled by 'thought'.

K.:"... In right meditation the thinker is not separate from his thought."

Ojai 8th Public 1945

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 20 Jan 2017.

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Thu, 19 Jan 2017 #66
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Whew....that was easy. Now we're all free from conflicting thoughts and painful emotions ;)
Let us say it is quite 'simple' indeed ... but not 'easy' :-)

It is like stopping a heavy truck running at full speed on the highway, it is not enough to turn off the engine to stop it ... but it helps in the end ...

Wait....who said the engine is off? As long as we're trying to get somewhere we're not about to do that. So what keeps us trying to do something....or get somewhere...in regards to our conflicting thoughts and painful emotions? We DO want to be free of suffering....unless we're masochists. So how do you propose we go about turning the engine of the 'me' off? Will 'me' be able to do that? K. said that there's no path...no method.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 19 Jan 2017.

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Thu, 19 Jan 2017 #67
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
So how do you propose we go about turning the engine of the 'me' off?

The engine will stop when there is no more fuel ...

... ie. no resistance to 'what is' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Thu, 19 Jan 2017.

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Thu, 19 Jan 2017 #68
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
The engine will stop when there is no more fuel ...

Right. When we’re dead.

Let it Be

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Thu, 19 Jan 2017 #69
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5517 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Criticism is only of value in so far as it trains your observation so that it can eventually be turned on yourself."

Life seems to be so easy right Jean? You read something about criticism and that settles forevermore what criticism is for you.

Now you never have to be aware of criticism anymore or understand your own criticism of others. All you have to do is conclude what someone is saying is criticism and then pull out your little memorized quote and repeat it over and over again in any situation where you think there is criticism. You don't see, apparently, that almost everything you write is second hand. Taken from something someone else has said and you believe is true.

Have you ever discovered anything for yourself? Or do you just memorize quotes?

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Thu, 19 Jan 2017 #70
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Right. When we’re dead.

So die while you are alive then ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 19 Jan 2017 #71
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
So die while you are alive then ...

See Jack's post above about memorizing phrases. Or are you discovering something for yourself?

Let it Be

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Fri, 20 Jan 2017 #72
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Jack : Have you ever discovered anything for yourself? Or do you just memorize quotes?

Sorry to say nothing 'new ' comes form you either Jack .i think all most everyone and to some extent Jean himself might have forgotten about his earlier mission ( if at all there is one ) of excessive repeated posts with no sense of inquiry etc ... but you simply cannot make do with your constant focus on attending to his posts and coming out with repeated critical comments which I feel are waste of time . Wonder if this is all one has to / got to do with this gift ! The gift of coming in contact with this marvelous teaching and in your case you are one of the fortunate persons who met K in your life time and heard him directly .

This post was last updated by pavani rao Fri, 20 Jan 2017.

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Fri, 20 Jan 2017 #73
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5517 posts in this forum Offline

Pavani, I have tried for as many years as Jean has been on here to have a reasonable conversation where things K pointed out are discussed. And it can't be done as long as Jean keeps butting in, which he does consistently, with his meaningless quotes and gross misunderstandings.

When you have a narcissist, such as Jean, who thinks he is the only one who knows then nothing can be discussed without his interference and insistence on distracting from the what is being discussed.

I have even asked Dev to remove both Jean and Jack from this forum but he has, so far, refused. Although he has in the past thrown Jean off a couple of times. So I am left with two choices: Leave the forum to Jean's idiocy or simply make this forum not a comfortable place for him.

I don't care if I get thrown off of here but Jean cares very deeply if he gets thrown off. So I'm hoping that sooner or later Dev or someone in control will get tired of the bickering between us and throw us both off. It's the only chance this forum has to be a viable place to discuss K. The only other possibility would be if no one would respond to either Jack or Jean. That would be acceptable to me.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 21 Jan 2017.

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Fri, 20 Jan 2017 #74
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

So die while you are alive then ...

... are you discovering something for yourself?

What could it mean to "die while being alive" Tom ? Would you like to investigate into this question ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 20 Jan 2017 #75
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Would you like to investigate into this question ?

For thought to go there would probably be meaningless....I mean, to have a discussion of something that is not a fact(this dying while alive)....speculation. It might be more useful to discuss what we're actually doing in our daily living that causes us such misery....personally and in the world...in relationships with our fellow man. What we call living. We don't know dying. Or perhaps you do and want to expound on the subject?

Let it Be

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Fri, 20 Jan 2017 #76
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 793 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I have even asked Dev to remove both Jean and Jack from this forum but he has, so far, refused.

I thought you and Jean had reached an understanding whereby you didn't reply to each other's posts. This seemed to work for a while, didn't it?

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Fri, 20 Jan 2017 #77
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5517 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I thought you and Jean had reached an understanding whereby you didn't reply to each other's posts. This seemed to work for a while, didn't it?

We did but Jean started replying to my posts. He replied several times to my posts before I finally replied to one of his. Completely ignoring the fact that he had already replied several times to my posts Jean accused me of breaking the agreement. This is the kind of deeply dishonest, blind, mindless response which has become his hallmark on this forum.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 20 Jan 2017.

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Fri, 20 Jan 2017 #78
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
We don't know dying. Or perhaps you do and want to expound on the subject?

What could it mean "die while alive" ? ... what is it that dies ?

Obviously it would be the 'psychological self' ... but what would it be like the end of psychological self ? Is it possible to live without the self ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 20 Jan 2017 #79
Thumb_stringio Brian Smith United Kingdom 212 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack, I think you're chiming in with a lot of comtemporary thought here. For instance here in the UK we voted to leave the Europeon Union. This was a surprising result that despite the establishment and every famous and influential person supporting staying in, the majority voted to leave. They were derided and told that their views were irrelevant and that the vote should be taken again as they weren't properly educated. Very important people openly questioned the idea of democracy because of this. Even so the people voted for this in accordance with the rules. Others may hate it but that's the way it's turned out.
I daresay in the USA it happened with Donald Trump, but the fact is that according to the rules he won. That's the way it is.
And it's the same thing on this forum with your views regarding Jean. You shouldn't think you can overide the rules just because you don't like him. It's down to the moderators which people should be allowed to post on here. It's up to them to ban Jean. It's not your forum, it's theirs. You might be right in what you're saying but you can't tell him to shut up. If he's ruining the forum then that's the problem of the people who run the forum. The only solution is for you to start your own forum, then hope he joins it and then ban him from it.

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Fri, 20 Jan 2017 #80
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5517 posts in this forum Offline

Brian Smith wrote:
The only solution is for you to start your own forum, then hope he joins it and then ban him from it.

Yeah, that's funny. I could become another Clive. He gave Jean a chance and Jean blew it in about a week or so. Now Jean can't post on that forum so he is here. I know you weren't serious but I have no desire at all to be a moderator. I'd be lousy at it anyway.

Aside from this forum look what is happening in the world. The Donald Trumps, Tony Blairs, Bill and Hillary Clintons, the Thatchers and Reagans rise to the top and the rest of us suffer for it. There are those people who want to dominate anything they get into and demand that their narrow, self-serving views of the world should dominate and prevail.

The US and the UK are, arguably, the two most powerful countries on earth and they both are wholly corrupted at the top at minimum. You know what they say about power and corruption going together.

Today, in the US, the oath of the US Presidential office was given to a man-child who is real estate hustler, a serial sexual molester, a deadbeat, a pathological liar and more. Also today this person was given the nuclear codes to what is probably the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons in the world.

In the next 20 years nearly three quarters of the species of plants and animals on this planet are probably going to go extinct. The oceans are dying. The oceans along with vegetation, the forests which are rapidly disappearing, are the two major sources of oxygen for this planet.

And with all this people go on with what they have always been doing. Making choices and living lives that perpetuate their own misery. In some ways Jean has come to personify for me, fairly or unfairly, much of this stupidity and blindness and resistance to change. The people who want to be authority figures who insist that only they know what is correct and will lead us out of the wilderness. No one can lead us out. And when you consider what humanity has to overcome, what changes have to be made to even have a remote chance to keep from going down the drain it's mind boggling. We're going to have to drop everything we believe in; religions, gods, nationalism, economic systems that promote endless accumulation of goods and wealth, basically everything that our conditioning has made us. That's part of what it means to die to everything. Look at the people on this forum alone who relentlessly hang onto their belief in Jesus, Buddha, Shiva and so on. If people who have read K can't see past the superstitious religious crap who can?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 21 Jan 2017.

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Fri, 20 Jan 2017 #81
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 328 posts in this forum Offline

And another thing is about personnel, individual salvation. It is so a self centered activity. Is it what we are after: a personnal salvation ? Ridiculous. Don't we see that human consciousness is one and only one ? Ans that this conscisouness is fragmented, conflict, and our own destructiuon ? Don't , if I may suggest, shut in yourself in such an illusion. There is no such a thing as an individual. And a real individual is not divided.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sat, 21 Jan 2017.

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Sat, 21 Jan 2017 #82
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1378 posts in this forum Offline

I'm seeing (rightly or wrongly) that what we all share as humans is this ability to think. 'Thinking'. It is a mechanism common to us all. But for each of us it is also very 'unique'. 'My' thoughts are different than yours because my thinking issues from the background of my experiences, my memories, my likes, dislikes etc. Also my education, my I.Q. makes my thought different than another who has had no education, low I.Q. etc. One may 'believe' fervently in a God, or a Savior , while another sees that as superstition etc.etc. But no matter what the content of the thought is, no matter how brilliant , how poetic. how pedestrian...it is all still just this 'mechanism' we have called 'thought/ thinking'. And it is at this level, we communicate...the more 'articulate' are considered 'superior' while the inarticulate are considered inferior. But it is all just 'thought'. It is never still, it defines (is) who we are. And in its proper place, there would be no problem whatsoever, but when it moved into the realm of "me and mine", the disaster began.

So as has been said many times and again in the QOTD above, can 'thought' understand itself?

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Sat, 21 Jan 2017 #83
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 328 posts in this forum Offline

Though it may seems unique, doesn't thought have a common denominator ? Based on memory. Based on pleasure and pain. Comparing, evaluating, judging, caught in time. Related to our attachements. A reaction to anxiety, to anger, to ours all sort of fears and pleasure , to our attachements ? Rationalising, raisonning. Am I missing something ? If one observe, one will always find new ways of how thought work. At the psychological level, isn't thought related to our deep attachements and the conditioning to compare, judge, to create psychological time ...etc ? Without talking about creating the illusion of the self ? Of the me and you ( is there such a thing ? ).And when one start to observe the thinker, it separate itself from it, creating the observer, which is still thought. Observe all the tricks of the monkey. Thought and the self have such many faces .

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sat, 21 Jan 2017.

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Sat, 21 Jan 2017 #84
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 328 posts in this forum Offline

Aren't we all sharing this ? Thought is common to all humanity. With or without great or low I.Q.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sat, 21 Jan 2017.

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Sat, 21 Jan 2017 #85
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5517 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I'm seeing (rightly or wrongly) that what we all share as humans is this ability to think. 'Thinking'. It is a mechanism common to us all. But for each of us it is also very 'unique'. 'My' thoughts are different than yours because my thinking issues from the background of my experiences, my memories, my likes, dislikes etc.

I question this. Thought is the response of memory which is made up of experience and knowledge. Our experiences are shaped by our common cultural, economic, social and religious conditioning. K repeatedly pointed out that "you are the world". Your thinking; suffering, greed, loneliness and so on is common to all of humanity. If you consider it you might see that thought is collective and not unique to a particular individual.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 21 Jan 2017.

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Sat, 21 Jan 2017 #86
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1378 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
If you consider it you might see that thought is collective and not unique to a particular individual.

That is what I tried to say. That we share the process of thinking but for each of us we 'feel' that our thought is 'unique'. Meditation, I feel, is the discovery that we are living our lives within the boundaries of this process. Thought created a 'corral' outside of which is the 'unknown' and at the center of which is 'me', the 'self', the 'thinker'. Thought attempts to imagine what might be beyond the borders of its conditioning, but that is all it can do,'imagine'. Gods, timelessness, eternity, life after death etc.' Try as it may, clever as it may be, articulate as it may be, intuitive as it may be, it can never escape the 'known', because it IS the 'known'. It can never discover timelessness, because thought IS time. Yes I see it as 'collective' and very few have gone beyond it, but we see as in the case of K., what it means to do so.

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Sat, 21 Jan 2017 #87
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5517 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Yes I see it as 'collective' and very few have gone beyond it, but we see as in the case of K., what it means to do so.

Thanks for clearing that up. I see it as you do.

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Sat, 21 Jan 2017 #88
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 793 posts in this forum Offline

Hi everybody. After reading a few contributions above I started reading part of The Network of Thought by Krishnamurti. He says;

"Our consciousness has been programmed for thousands and thousands of years to think of ourselves as individuals, as separate entities struggling, in conflict from the moment we are born until we die. We are programmed to that. We have accepted that. We have never challenged it; we have never asked if it is possible to live a life absolutely without conflict. Never having asked it we will never learn about it. We repeat. It is an innate part of our existence to be in conflict - nature is in conflict: that is our argument - and we consider that progress is only through conflict. Religious organizations throughout history have maintained the idea of individual salvation. We are questioning very seriously whether there is an individual consciousness; whether you, as a human being, have a separate consciousness from the rest of mankind. You have to answer this, not just play with it."

Network of Thought, The
J. Krishnamurti The Network of Thought Chapter 1 1st Public Talk Saanen 12th July 1981

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Sat, 21 Jan 2017.

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Sun, 22 Jan 2017 #89
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Posts 83 & 90 by Jack

So Jack , in other words according to you there should be a different , soft , gentle atmosphere where in one can go on inquiring about what K pointed out uninterrupted . And you had given plenty of examples as to how Jean is the main source of disruption by addressing him in hundreds of posts since a very long time . And also you feel the world order is going down hill because of Trumps or Bushes or of some reason or the other ....

Well just to go back to the times of K , who was a witness to the worst kind of destruction , holocaust humanity had ever faced ; The two world wars . Had he followed ' our ' standards , he should not have done anything . He should have taken the way of condemning , cursing and putting the blame on the entire human race and should have retired to the Himalayas or some other mountain ranges and should have lived his life peacefully .

I think in the past when this forum used to be busy with lot of participants , we all had discussed endlessly about the peripheral issues of the teaching . But when one had realized the main thrust and focus of the teaching is not in endless discussions but in understanding oneself ... If at all one had to study , observe anything , it is the study of oneself in relation to others , every thing around ; every idea , opinion , view point , mind set which one had gathered in due course of ones life and experiences . May be that's the reason not many participants are seen these days in the forum . I think you too agree with me that unless and until one had examined every aspect of human existence , going till the roots of it ; either ones beliefs in Gods or in any other religions or about the present day world conditions etc one should not and cannot come to any understanding . That is the first lesson I understood from the teaching . And not to make any body , not even K to be an authority .... And the real inquiry sets in facing the most difficult aspects of ones personality and ones life ....

May be you can start asking ' why this aspect of personality of this character called Jean had such an influence on you , and there is a strong possibility that this may be only one side of the person and you are being taken for a ride by his other many more sides where in he / she is coming out with more intelligent and polished versions of posts .... wonder if you had ever given a thought about it

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Sun, 22 Jan 2017 #90
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 793 posts in this forum Offline

"Can you look at yourself - not as a separate human being but as a human being who is actually the rest of mankind? To have such a feeling means that you have tremendous love for human beings."

J. Krishnamurti The Network of Thought Chapter 1 1st Public Talk Saanen 12th July 1981

What do you all think of this statement? Are there degrees of awareness of this or is it all or nothing?

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