Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Meditation


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Sat, 14 Jan 2017 #31
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1357 posts in this forum Offline

With this on mind one is meditating !

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Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Sun, 15 Jan 2017 #32
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
It seems that resistance is common to all....perhaps one or two don't resist suffering...perhaps even yourself.

No, I don't think this is 'black or white' Tom ... there are 'degrees' in suffering ... most people can face quietly small challenges, but when suffering touches more important aspects of their existence (and ego) then emotional reaction takes over ... some people even get irritated by very small challenges or contradictions ... see in this forum how some posters might aggressively insult others just because they disagree with their own ideas and beliefs ...

The proof is in the pudding Tom ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 15 Jan 2017 #33
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 794 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
But Sean, this statement is not something 'unknowable' ... this is something you can experience by yourself ... and know it too ...

Why cultivate non-knowledge ?

Hi Jean. I don't think it's a case of cultivating non-knowledge. Maybe it's a question of not always approaching everything from "the known" or knowledge. Krishnamurti wrote a book called "Freedom from The Known". If we can leave everything we know aside maybe we can discover something new. Krishnamurti seemed to be able not to accumulate knowledge and approach life with freshness, perhaps innocence.

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Sun, 15 Jan 2017 #34
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
No, I don't think this is 'black or white' Tom ... there are 'degrees' in suffering ...

Of course. If one's psychological security is not threatened, he may appear to not suffer....may appear to be happy. And there may be degrees of resistance as well. My point was that suffering and resistance are common factors for man, that's all. Resistance is a fact for man, regardless that some may appear to resist more than others. What is behind this resistance which we all share to one degree or another? That might be a good question to explore.

Let it Be

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Sun, 15 Jan 2017 #35
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5517 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
If it was difficult to insult the chap when he was alive it would seem even more difficult now.

I'd say it was bloody impossible to insult K when he was alive but that's not the point. Because you don't understand what K was pointing out you blame it on him.

Does it really matter what K or anyone else has said about meditation? Is knowing what meditation is necessary before you can observe, be aware, of your thought process moment to moment; the roots of it, your religious, cultural, social and political conditioning? Whether you or I can or can't observe without the movement of thought is not dependent on what K or anyone else has said.

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Sun, 15 Jan 2017 #36
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5517 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Well I guess it can differ from one person to another, isn't it so Tom ?

What happened to "we, you, are the world"? That each one of us, our consciousness, is part of the collective consciousness of mankind? There are different degrees of suffering but is that important to the understanding of suffering? Suffering is suffering and to understand suffering do you first have to understand all the degrees of suffering or do you just have to understand suffering?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 15 Jan 2017.

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Sun, 15 Jan 2017 #37
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Resistance is a fact for man, regardless that some may appear to resist more than others. What is behind this resistance which we all share to one degree or another? That might be a good question to explore.

Certainly Tom ... what could it be behind this resistance ?

How are we going to address this question now ?

Will we jump to quick answers ... so as to get rid quickly of the question ? or what ?

What is the cause of human resistance to suffering ?

??

Don't we all have some kind of blind trust/confidence that thought can solve suffering ?

But is it so ?

Can thought solve human suffering ? or does thought only bring more suffering ... more oil on the fire ?

... and isn't thought itself the very core, the very 'essence', of this resistance ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sun, 15 Jan 2017.

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Sun, 15 Jan 2017 #38
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Will we jump to quick answers ... so as to get rid quickly of the question ? or what ?

Jean Gatti wrote:
isn't thought itself the very core, the very 'essence', of this resistance ?

That was quick ;)

OK...not going to argue that thought is part of the resistance, but we can't just eliminate thought. Is it all thought that is the culprit here, or only a certain type of thought? There's fear or anger, and immediately thought jumps in....before we know it we've already condemned or justified it.

Let it Be

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Sun, 15 Jan 2017 #39
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Can thought solve human suffering ? or does thought only bring more suffering ... more oil on the fire ?

I would put it a little differently....can thought understand fear or anger....can thought get at the root of it....uproot it? Or is thought the wrong tool? As you said, we most of us have faith that rational thinking and analysis will solve our problems.....as if the thinker is separate from what he analyzes.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 15 Jan 2017.

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Sun, 15 Jan 2017 #40
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5517 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
There's fear or anger, and immediately thought jumps in....before we know it we've already condemned or justified it.

Not only that but fear and anger is thought. As I am sure you know.

Is seeing "what is" chasing thought, condemning thought, analyzing thought and endlessly debating thought? Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just watch thought without forming any conclusions?

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Sun, 15 Jan 2017 #41
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just watch thought without forming any conclusions?

It's not so simple when one thought condemns or reacts to another in a chain reaction. I'm angry with my wife or boss. One thought says 'I want to leave her'. Then another thought says, 'I should stay and work it out' or I should control my anger or 'she should control HER anger'. And this chain reaction goes on and on. When I'm upset with my wife or my boss, can I just watch the whole process without thought trying to find an answer? Just questioning why thought rushes in whenever the emotion is strong trying to provide some answer or resolution to the conflict. Can I just watch my anger and my thoughts without trying to solve the issue with my wife with more and more and more thinking? Thought hasn't resolved our/man's violence and suffering, yet we continue using it whenever there's a strong emotion or conflict.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 15 Jan 2017.

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Sun, 15 Jan 2017 #42
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
There's fear or anger, and immediately thought jumps in....before we know it we've already condemned or justified it.

Yes Tom, but thought has already 'jumped in' BEFORE the emotional reaction of anger or fear ... and this is very subtle to see (because it is mainly unconscious) ... thought itself (mostly unconsciously) is the cause of anger and fear ...

Can we remain present enough to totally AVOID the emotional reaction to take place ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 15 Jan 2017 #43
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Not only that but fear and anger is thought.

Not exactly so, fear and anger are emotions ... but indeed anger and fear are emotional consequences of thought (see post above) ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 16 Jan 2017 #44
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Can we remain present enough to totally AVOID the emotional reaction to take place ?

The potential for emotional reaction is already there as long as our mind is conditioned by belief, ideals, conclusions, ideas, etc. The emotional reactions and the conditioning of the mind are two sides of the same coin. As long as I have the idea that anger is wrong, I will react negatively to anger when it occurs. As long as I have the idea that my wife should have dinner ready when I come home from work, I will be angry if she doesn't. Or the idea that children should obey their parents, I will get angry if the child doesn't obey. The ideal/idea/thought (of obedience) and the anger are two sides of the coin.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 16 Jan 2017.

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Mon, 16 Jan 2017 #45
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5517 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Not exactly so, fear and anger are emotions ... but indeed anger and fear are emotional consequences of thought (see post above) ...

Jean don't you think you ought to know what you are talking about before you write something? Emotions are thought. Where does all this crap you are putting on this forum come from? Is this the manure Tolle is spreading?

Give me an example of an emotion that is not rooted in thought. This is not to say that thought cannot be free of emotion because it can. But when is emotion free of thought?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 16 Jan 2017.

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Mon, 16 Jan 2017 #46
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
As long as I have the idea that anger is wrong, I will react negatively to anger when it occurs. As long as I have the idea that my wife should have dinner ready when I come home from work, I will be angry if she doesn't.

So as long as there are expectations of any kind (ie 'should be's), there will be resistance to 'what is'.

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 16 Jan 2017 #47
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
So as long as there are expectations of any kind (ie 'should be's), there will be resistance to 'what is'.

And therefore one cannot 'remain present'(your post 49) when there's a conflict with one's wife or child....obviously. The conditioning of the mind by shoulds and should nots is a fact for man. Therefore he resists. How do we proceed?

Let it Be

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Mon, 16 Jan 2017 #48
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
What you are describing is a little like watching the same boring video clip on repeat.

It's you....and your life. If you find observing yourself boring, you're not really observing, but reacting, most likely. If it's 'on repeat' it's because you're not looking free of the past. It's the past which repeats.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 16 Jan 2017.

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Mon, 16 Jan 2017 #49
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5517 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Sounds stultifyingly boring and not my cup of tea at all.

Yes it would be stultifying if you set out to do it consciously. If it became a practice, a habit. Something you thought you were supposed to do. And that is, for many people, what their meditation seems to be. Setting aside a certain time everyday to chant or focus on a mantra or force the mind to concentrate on something.

jamie f wrote:
What about looking at trees? What about listening to the birds? What about feeling the breeze on your face?

Why do you think being aware of your conditioning, being aware of thought processes excludes what you have written above? When one looks at a bird or a tree is it like seeing it for the first time or is the thought process describing what you are seeing? The thought process remembering another time you have seen a tree with wide, spreading branches in the fall with it's red and gold leaves brilliant in the sunshine against a dark blue cloudless sky?

Can one be aware of the tree without memory or thought recording, comparing, what is being seen. You can't force yourself not to think but if you are subtly aware of thought while seeing the things you describe is that stultifying?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 16 Jan 2017.

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Mon, 16 Jan 2017 #50
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

So as long as there are expectations of any kind (ie 'should be's), there will be resistance to 'what is'.

And therefore one cannot 'remain present'(your post 49) when there's a conflict with one's wife or child....obviously. The conditioning of the mind by shoulds and should nots is a fact for man. Therefore he resists. How do we proceed?

When one clearly SEES the workings of conditioned human mind ... when one sees that all this leads to more and more suffering ... what happens ?

What happens when you see a poisonous snake Tom ?

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 16 Jan 2017 #51
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
When one clearly SEES the workings of conditioned human mind ... when one sees that all this leads to more and more suffering .

Forget about the poisonous snake. We've made him our god.
Why do you think man never sees that the snake...conditioned thought... is poisonous? Can you explain exactly why you say that conditioned thought only leads to more suffering? Can you explain in a way that will show me how to see it too?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 16 Jan 2017.

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Tue, 17 Jan 2017 #52
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Can you explain exactly why you say that conditioned thought only leads to more suffering?

Do you really need "explanations" Tom ?

Isn't this clear enough ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 17 Jan 2017 #53
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Is it because we think that thought won't only bring suffering, but it will also bring some resolution to our problem.

Thought is only a problem when it implies a resistance to 'what is' (ie a will to control) ... which is unfortunately generally the case ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 17 Jan 2017 #54
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1379 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
but that meditation ends when thought arrives and the depth, silence and beauty is lost.

Hi Jamie,

Looked at that way 'meditation' becomes a means to "silence and beauty"...I think that is the general understanding but for me K. is pointing at a much wider 'definition': that meditation is a means to self-knowledge and is not exclusive of 'noisy thought' or anything else that takes place in us...it has no goal...it doesn't choose what may be accepted or rejected. It isn't the seeking of a pleasant or pleasureful or even an intuitive state.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 17 Jan 2017.

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Tue, 17 Jan 2017 #55
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
but for me K. is pointing at a much wider 'definition': that meditation is a means to self-knowledge and is not exclusive of 'noisy thought' or anything else that takes place in us...it has no goal...it doesn't choose what may be accepted or rejected. It isn't the seeking of a pleasant or pleasureful state.

in other words a state of non-resistance to 'what is' ...

K himself gave us the ultimate key, his very 'secret':

"I don't mind what happens"

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Tue, 17 Jan 2017.

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Tue, 17 Jan 2017 #56
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5517 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
in other words a state of non-resistance to 'what is' ...

Jean, can't you say anything else but this same tired old mantra? If this statement ever had any meaning, and it probably did, you have sucked the life out of it by repeating it over and over again.

How dead does a brain have to be to just keep repeating the same things over and over again? You might have made a good propagandist or marketer with your mind numbing repetitious crap. In any case you win the prize for the biggest bore I have ever had the misfortune to come in contact with. Jean, shut up until you actually have something to add. I can't say it enough.

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Wed, 18 Jan 2017 #57
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
In any case you win the prize for the biggest bore I have ever had the misfortune to come in contact with.

The question is: why does one get irritated (or bored) by this ? Isn't irritation itself a form of resistance ?

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 18 Jan 2017 #58
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1357 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
in other words a state of non-resistance to 'what is' ...

K himself gave us the ultimate key, his very 'secret':

"I don't mind what happens"

Seeing that you're still playing with yourself, I'll just leave you alone !

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Wed, 18 Jan 2017 #59
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Can you explain exactly why you say that conditioned thought only leads to more suffering?
Do you really need "explanations" Tom ?

Isn't this clear enough ?

TOM: I should have put the word 'only' in bold. Intellectually it's quite clear to many of us, but thought continues to control our actions.....often unconsciously. Is it because we think that thought won't only bring suffering, but it will also bring some resolution to our problem?

I wanted to continue with this point if anyone wants to take it up again. We understand at least intellectually why thought leads to suffering, yet it continues to control our actions....emotions...often working at an unconscious level. Why don't we see that it will always lead to suffering when it works in the psychological realm? Because if we don't see that it's a total disaster in the making when it works 'psychologically', it will continue in its efforts to solve problems....to control our relationships...our daily living. And we can talk about not resisting until the cows come home, but it won't make one iota of difference.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 18 Jan 2017.

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Wed, 18 Jan 2017 #60
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5517 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
The question is: why does one get irritated (or bored) by this ? Isn't irritation itself a form of resistance ?

The answer is that your superficial answers to everything, your memorized drivel, is killing any meaningful discussion on this forum. I have even had people contact me from the Tolle forum to say that you are doing the same thing there using the name of Phil.

Jean you don't discuss you just keep issuing quotes and memorized phrases. You're not saying anything.

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