Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

Meditation


Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 193 in total
Thu, 12 Jan 2017 #1
Thumb_stringio jamie f United Kingdom 47 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED


Meditation is one of the greatest arts in life-perhaps the greatest, and one cannot possibly learn it from anybody. That is the beauty of it. It has no technique and therefore no authority.

Surprisingly, given the importance Krishnamurti attaches to it, there is very little dialogue about meditation on this message board. It feels to me as though the less I read of his books, the more I am drawn to meditate and so I thought I would open it up to anyone who feels they have something to say on the subject.

'It's there, as if it were behind a curtain.'

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 12 Jan 2017 #2
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

jamie f wrote:
given the importance Krishnamurti attaches to it,

Well, it seems clear that Krishnamurti uses that word, differently than most anyone else does. And so, can there be intelligent discussion of a/the word?

Stuff happens

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 12 Jan 2017 #3
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 548 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Jamie, Randall and all,

I think it's important to understand what Krishnamurti means by the word "meditation". Here is a short video (just under 12 minutes) where he goes into what he means when he uses this word. You can find the video here.

Any thoughts on this?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 12 Jan 2017 #4
Thumb_stringio jamie f United Kingdom 47 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sean Hen wrote:
I think it's important to understand what Krishnamurti means by the word "meditation". Here is a short video (just under 12 minutes) where he goes into what he means when he uses this word. You can find the video here.

Any thoughts on this?

It's very interesting. After the usual lengthy preamble, he makes it clear that he is not an authority and then authoritatively tells us about it. I think that what I take to be 'meditation' is a relaxation technique that I have invented for myself and not really what K refers to as meditation. The irony is that if I now change what I am doing, I will have made K into an authority on meditation as I will be just following his description of the word.

'It's there, as if it were behind a curtain.'

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Thu, 12 Jan 2017 #5
Thumb_stringio jamie f United Kingdom 47 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

randall merryman wrote:
Well, it seems clear that Krishnamurti uses that word, differently than most anyone else does.

Yes indeed. I am aware of different types of meditation - there is focusing the mind on something - like a word or a phrase - and there is emptying the mind, but have recently become more aware that K seems to be talking about something entirely different.

'It's there, as if it were behind a curtain.'

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 12 Jan 2017 #6
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1020 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Hi Jamie, Randall and all,

I think it's important to understand what Krishnamurti means by the word "meditation". Here is a short video (just under 12 minutes) where he goes into what he means when he uses this word. You can find the video here.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks for the link Sean, one can see that 'questioning' everything and doubting the answers given leads naturally to 'meditation'.

jamie f wrote:
The irony is that if I now change what I am doing, I will have made K into an authority on meditation as I will be just following his description of the word.

Is this 'irony' or just understanding that what he's talking about !

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 12 Jan 2017 #7
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
The irony is that if I now change what I am doing, I will have made K into an authority on meditation as I will be just following his description of the word.

Only in your own twisted, confused mind. The "irony" is that you aren't, and apparently never have been, doing "meditation" but some mind numbing game someone told you was meditation.

When someone says you are on the wrong road and points to the right direction that doesn't make them an authority but rather keeps you from continuing to move in the wrong direction.

If you don't like K why are you here spouting off your inanities? Maybe you should find another hobby. Or stick to a "Quiet Space" where flaky theories and comments often find a home.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 13 Jan 2017.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Fri, 13 Jan 2017 #8
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1846 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
The irony is that if I now change what I am doing, I will have made K into an authority on meditation as I will be just following his description of the word.

Or Jamie - perhaps you could take an evolutionary leap and actually find out for yourself what meditation is.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Fri, 13 Jan 2017 #9
Thumb_stringio jamie f United Kingdom 47 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Or Jamie - perhaps you could take an evolutionary leap and actually find out for yourself what meditation is.

I already have. But I wondered if anybody had anything to offer on the subject. You know, people always tell you to find things out for yourself - right up to the point when you see things differently from them and then for some reason it suddenly becomes a problem.

'It's there, as if it were behind a curtain.'

This post was last updated by jamie f (account deleted) Fri, 13 Jan 2017.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 3 readers
Back to Top
Fri, 13 Jan 2017 #10
Thumb_stringio jamie f United Kingdom 47 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack, i'm not going to swap insults with you.

'It's there, as if it were behind a curtain.'

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 13 Jan 2017 #11
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1846 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
I already have. But I wondered if anybody had anything to offer on the subject. You know, people always tell you to find things out for yourself - right up to the point when you see things differently from them and then for some reason it suddenly becomes a problem.

Only if you let it. :) But really Jamie - well answered - without reaction.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 13 Jan 2017 #12
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Jack, i'm not going to swap insults with you.

Clearly meditation also implies the absence of any emotional reaction ...

:-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 13 Jan 2017 #13
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 548 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Yes indeed. I am aware of different types of meditation - there is focusing the mind on something - like a word or a phrase - and there is emptying the mind, but have recently become more aware that K seems to be talking about something entirely different.

Hi Jamie. I don't know if the emptying of the mind comes into what Krishnamurti means by meditation. One thing that strikes me is the quality of freshness and newness that comes across when Krishnamurti spoke. It seems he was discovering what he was talking about for the first time. When I read or listen to Krishnamurti I get this sense of newness, of discovery. It's not like he's repeating something that he's said a hundred times and it's old and stale. Maybe that's something we could all do a bit more in this forum - explore and discover together. Is that possible?

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Fri, 13 Jan 2017.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Fri, 13 Jan 2017 #14
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Clearly meditation also implies the absence of any emotional reaction ...

How so? If that was so, then no one would look into this whole subject, as most of us are reacting when we suffer. We want to find out why we suffer, right? So we look into it...look into ourselves... which is meditation. Perhaps meditation means looking into the emotional reactions or whatever we are experiencing free of conclusions or beliefs.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Fri, 13 Jan 2017 #15
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Perhaps meditation means looking into the emotional reactions or whatever we are experiencing free of conclusions or beliefs.

Yes, and looking into the emotional reaction means the ending of the emotional reaction ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 13 Jan 2017 #16
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
looking into the emotional reaction means the ending of the emotional reaction ...

You're too quick to try to do away with 'what is'...suffering is there...that's why we are meditating...going into it. Today's QOTD: "Suffering, from which we are ever trying to escape, can lead us to the comprehension of the "I" process, to the profound knowledge of oneself, but all escapes into illusion must cease." More on meditation: "Suffering can bring about the comprehension of oneself, if you do not try to avoid it or to escape from it."

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 13 Jan 2017.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Fri, 13 Jan 2017 #17
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Jack, i'm not going to swap insults with you.

Of course not. You seem to prefer trying to insult people who are already dead and who you don't understand and feel frustrated with.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 13 Jan 2017 #18
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Clearly meditation also implies the absence of any emotional reaction ...

Always the fast easy memorized answer. Always pretending to be the authority who knows but always answering by rote. Jean have you ever had an original understanding of anything?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 13 Jan 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 13 Jan 2017 #19
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
When I read or listen to Krishnamurti I get this sense of newness, of discovery. It's not like he's repeating something that he's said a hundred times and it's old and stale.

Very good point. I saw the same thing when I attended the talks or "gatherings" as they were called then.

K never answered by rote, from memory, but would rediscover the point in question. And unfortunately this is probably why we won't be able to discuss and discover together. There are some very sincere and sharp people on this forum but the dialogue is almost always interrupted by someone parroting what they have conceptualized, have made into an abstraction or theory, ideal. You know who I mean. The guy who always pops up with the same tired repeated response to any and all situations.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 13 Jan 2017 #20
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
"Suffering can bring about the comprehension of oneself, if you do not try to avoid it or to escape from it."

Yes clearly so Tom, suffering can lead to an understanding of oneself when it is not escaped from ... that's why suffering has its place ... and probably its very purpose too ... else why would there be suffering at all ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 13 Jan 2017 #21
Thumb_3137 Brian Smith United Kingdom 204 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
suffering can lead to an understanding of oneself when it is not escaped from ... that's why suffering has its place ... and probably its very purpose too ... else why would there be suffering at all ?

That's interesting Jean, so suffering exists soley as a means of helping us to understand ourselves. There's a reason for suffering to exist?
Basically like a Medieval Christian, you're saying the world exists as some divine obstacle course.

This post was last updated by Brian Smith Fri, 13 Jan 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 13 Jan 2017 #22
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Offline

Brian Smith wrote:
Basically like a Medieval Christian, you're saying the world exists as some divine obstacle course.

Right...God creates all this suffering to help us to be free of suffering.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 14 Jan 2017 #23
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
else why would there be suffering at all ?

A 'wrong turn'?

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 14 Jan 2017 #24
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
A 'wrong turn'?

And what would be the exact nature of this "wrong turn" Tom ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 14 Jan 2017 #25
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Yes clearly so Tom, suffering can lead to an understanding of oneself when it is not escaped from ... that's why suffering has its place ... and probably its very purpose too ... else why would there be suffering at all ?

First understand what it is you are talking about instead of making an abstraction of it. Reacting to words and forming an instant opinion about something blocks understanding. There is an old saying (you do like old sayings don't you Jean?) in the US: "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than it is to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Suffering is not the way to God
Suffering perverts and distorts the mind. Suffering is not the way of truth, to reality, to God, or whatever name you like to give it. We have tried to ennoble suffering, saying it is inevitable, it is necessary, it brings understanding, and all the rest of it. But the truth is that the more intensely you suffer, the more eager you are to escape, to create an illusion, to find a way out. So it seems to me that a sane, healthy mind must understand suffering, and be utterly free from it. And is it possible?
The Collected Works vol XII, p 176

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 14 Jan 2017 #26
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
K: Suffering perverts and distorts the mind.

Suffering distorts the mind only when it is resisted, when it is escaped from ...

... But the truth is that the more intensely you suffer, the more eager you are to escape, to create an illusion, to find a way out.

... ie when there is a resistance to 'what is' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sat, 14 Jan 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 14 Jan 2017 #27
Thumb_3137 Brian Smith United Kingdom 204 posts in this forum Offline

Now I get what you're doing Jean, your purpose here is to make us suffer.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 14 Jan 2017 #28
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Brian Smith wrote:
Now I get what you're doing Jean, your purpose here is to make us suffer.

What irritates you about others is an opportunity to learn something about yourself Brian :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 14 Jan 2017 #29
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 548 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Suffering distorts the mind only when it is resisted, when it is escaped from ...

Hi Jean. What you say might well be true. However, what comes across when you make statements like these is that "you know". Maybe this is a language problem. If you'd written your statement as a question then it perhaps wouldn't have read like "you know but we don't know." When we're talking about K's teachings, none of know. None of us are experts and have any authority here. That's the way I see it.

I think it's worth bearing in mind what Krishnamurti said about communication:

"TO COMMUNICATE with one another, even if we know each other very well, is extremely difficult. I may use words that may have to you a significance different from mine. Understanding comes when we, you and I, meet on the same level at the same time. That happens only when there is real affection between people, between husband and wife, between intimate fiends. That is real communion. Instantaneous understanding comes when we meet on the same level at the same time.
It is very difficult to commune with one another easily, effectively and with definitive action. I am using words which are simple, which are not technical, because I do not think that any technical type of expression is going to help us solve our difficult problems; so I am not going to use any technical terms, either of psychology or of science. I have not read any books on psychology or any religious books, fortunately. I would like to convey, by the very simple words which we use in our daily life, a deeper significance; but that is very difficult if you do not know how to listen."

J. Krishnamurti The First and Last Freedom Chapter 1 Introduction.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 14 Jan 2017 #30
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

Suffering distorts the mind only when it is resisted, when it is escaped from ...

Hi Jean. What you say might well be true. However, what comes across when you make statements like these is that "you know".

But Sean, this statement is not something 'unknowable' ... this is something you can experience by yourself ... and know it too ...

Why cultivate non-knowledge ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sat, 14 Jan 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 193 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)