Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Why can't we face the actual ?


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Sun, 01 Jan 2017 #1
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

"Why do we not realise that our pursuit of drunkenness, God or an ideal is only the pursuit of our escape from facing the actual, and therefore reduces us to a state of dullness and insensitivity?"

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day | Jan 01, 2017

Is it very clear to all of us that our addictions are merely an escape ?

Can we answer this question from K ? Why don't we realise that ? Why do we go on with addictions (which include drugs, alcohol, entertainment, search for pleasure and security, beliefs, imitation, social conformism etc) ?

WHY ?

Why can't we face the 'actual' ?

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 01 Jan 2017 #2
Thumb_stringio David T United Kingdom 124 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Happy New year Jean,
Is not the asking of questions another escape from the actual. There are no questions or answers in the actual. Though pleasure is an escape from the boredom of ones self,so one can see the attraction of it.
Hope you are well and looking forward to the new year.

I am a figment of my and your imagination

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Sun, 01 Jan 2017 #3
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

David T wrote:
There are no questions or answers in the actual.

Does it mean you don't suffer from any addiction or any escape David ?

Anyway Happy New Year to you too ... without addictions of course :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sun, 01 Jan 2017.

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Sun, 01 Jan 2017 #4
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4781 posts in this forum Offline

When one does point out the hollowness of organized religion with it's mythical people and the dogma as I have done lately on this forum there is a storm of resentment and denial. So many people who are interested in K want to keep their beliefs while professing to be interested in understanding conditioning. They want what K is offering only to add it to the comfortable beliefs they already are harboring. Organized religion, which is the pursuit of god, is junk-food for the mind. And like junk food it may make you feel good for a while but you eventually become fat and sickly and addicted.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 01 Jan 2017.

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Sun, 01 Jan 2017 #5
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Organized religion is one form of escape and addiction among many others ... the question is why do we need those escapes at all ? Why can't we face the 'actual' ? What is the 'blocking factor' ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 01 Jan 2017 #6
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Why can't we face the 'actual' ?

Now of course there imediately arises another question:

What is this 'actual' K is speaking of ? What does K mean by this ?

And a correlated question would be:

Does it mean that the 'normal' way people live in is NOT 'actual' ?

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 01 Jan 2017 #7
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2911 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
What is this 'actual' K is speaking of ?

What is happening right now...our action or thinking or emotion....whatever actually IS, as opposed to some ideal....be it anger, fear, loneliness, craving, confusion, suffering, desire.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 02 Jan 2017.

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Mon, 02 Jan 2017 #8
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
What is happening right now...our action or thinking or emotion....whatever actually IS, as opposed to some ideal....be it anger, fear, loneliness, craving, confusion, suffering, desire.

ok Tom, let us take one of those 'actuals': loneliness ...

WHY can't we face loneliness ?

What is the problem with staying alone ?

Why is loneliness a problem at all ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 02 Jan 2017 #9
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2911 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
What is the problem with staying alone ?

I don't know this one. I used to enjoy being alone, but for some folks it's almost like death...fear of total isolation. Facing fear can be a little like facing death too. Possibly one could start with something like anger. Instead of just lashing out at ones wife or child, observe what the anger is all about? I don't know...perhaps if there's enough interest, one might do it. But one gets stuck because he's been told his whole life that anger is wrong...it's BAD. How in hell are you going to observe something that you are unconsciously condemning...or trying to get rid of?

Let it Be

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Mon, 02 Jan 2017 #10
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 1152 posts in this forum Online

Tom Paine wrote:
How in hell are you going to observe something that you are unconsciously condemning...or trying to get rid of?

It may be important to be aware that the word 'anger' is not the sensation that has been named 'anger'. But the word carries its own baggage...it has a negative connotation and we have been taught to 'replace' it with its opposite: non-anger, or 'calm'. So can the sensation be observed without the condemnatory word?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 02 Jan 2017.

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Mon, 02 Jan 2017 #11
Thumb_3137 Brian Smith United Kingdom 204 posts in this forum Offline

Of course there are many who turn away from these diversions - drink, drugs, entertainment, cheap sex (the best kind), religion etc - in order to face the actual, yet often I think they're only facing an idea of the actual they've created and have become entangled with the founding father of all diversions - the diversion that they've got rid of diversions.
"Oh no, there's no observer here mate, just a bit of choiceless awareness going on, honest." All the while they're dodging their own thoughts and placing the observer one row back.
In my view that standpoint in this hall of mirrors is even more dangerous than the cheap obvious diversions, because in holding the delusion you're facing the actual you'll achieve an unchallengable feeling of superiority and righteousness - a feeling of having the truth in your back pocket. I'm surprised that no one asks how we can face the actual when observer-wise there's no one at home. Certainly an explanation's needed for me.

This post was last updated by Brian Smith Mon, 02 Jan 2017.

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Mon, 02 Jan 2017 #12
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Possibly one could start with something like anger.

I just wonder Tom if anger itself is not ultimately the fear to be left alone ? When you disagree with someone and get angry aren't you fearing that disagreement could lead you to be rejected, abandoned and isolated ?

So isn't the fear of aloneness the root cause for most emotional reactions ?

When you believe in religions, ideologies, nationalism etc ... aren't you looking for the approval and recognition of a group that can protect you ? avoiding the fear to be left alone ?

And here we touch something else: isn't the 'actual' the fact of 'aloneness' ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Mon, 02 Jan 2017.

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Mon, 02 Jan 2017 #13
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2911 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
When you disagree with someone and get angry aren't you fearing that disagreement could lead you to be rejected, abandoned and isolated ?

I get angry if they disagree with my religion, too. Or take away my pleasure. I have reservations for a nice dinner at an Italian restaurant with my wife. My son gets sick and my wife wants to stay home. I get angry.

Let it Be

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Mon, 02 Jan 2017 #14
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I get angry if they disagree with my religion, too.

Can we look at this ? Why would one get angry because someone disagrees on your religion ? Why not just let others have their own opinions and beliefs ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 02 Jan 2017 #15
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2911 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Why would one get angry because someone disagrees on your religion ?

Because my beliefs give me security. If they say 'Your God is false', I am naturally threatened by that.

Let it Be

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Mon, 02 Jan 2017 #16
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2911 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Why would one get angry because someone disagrees on your religion ?

Because my beliefs give me security. If they say 'Your God is false', I am naturally threatened by that.

Let it Be

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Mon, 02 Jan 2017 #17
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
If they say 'Your God is false', I am naturally threatened by that.

Why would you feel threatened by someone's opinions ? Someone has a different opinion or belief, so what ? Why does this 'touch' you at all ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 02 Jan 2017 #18
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2911 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Why would you feel threatened by someone's opinions ?

I don't, personally....but wars have been fought over these religious differences...obviously. How do you answer your own question?

Let it Be

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Mon, 02 Jan 2017 #19
Thumb_3137 Brian Smith United Kingdom 204 posts in this forum Offline

Jean, you don't seem to realise that other people might not live in some conceptual cocoon. They might have real human emotions and reactions.

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #20
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Brian Smith wrote:
They might have real human emotions and reactions.

Oh yes they have ... and see where it leads ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Tue, 03 Jan 2017.

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #21
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

Why would you feel threatened by someone's opinions ?

I don't, personally....but wars have been fought over these religious differences...obviously. How do you answer your own question?

Isn't it because you identify yourself with your beliefs and opinions ?

... then if someone challenges your opinions you take it personally ...

... and you feel rejected (and left alone) because someone contradicts your beliefs ...

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #22
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 274 posts in this forum Offline

G M sir , why resist, and see , you are left with what is , take away what as a question you are left with IS

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #23
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 274 posts in this forum Offline

There is no answer for why ?

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #24
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 274 posts in this forum Offline

There is only Is

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #25
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Brian Smith wrote:
other people might not live in some conceptual cocoon.

This is exactly what religion is about : a "conceptual cocoon" ... a 'safe haven' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #26
Thumb_3137 Brian Smith United Kingdom 204 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Oh yes they have ... and see where it leads ...

Jean, you wrote that in answer my post above where I said that people have real emotions and reactions. You're not saying that there's some alternative to this are you?

Jean Gatti wrote:
This is exactly what religion is about : a "conceptual cocoon" ... a 'safe haven' ...

I didn't specify religion. It can be any ideology or a set of values and opinions that someone holds to keep themselves safe in isolation, defending themselves from real relationship with others.

This post was last updated by Brian Smith Tue, 03 Jan 2017.

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #27
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2911 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
then if someone challenges your opinions you take it personally ...

... and you feel rejected (and left alone) because someone contradicts your beliefs ...

I don't know about that alone part Jean. If I tell my Christian or Jewish friend that his beliefs are stupid, it's like telling him that HE'S stupid. It feels like a rejection of him. A friend once told me something similar about K. I was shocked for a short while. Not that I felt that he had rejected me(perhaps that was there as well), but that he didn't even take the time to go into what K was saying. He just rejected it out right....probably because K rejected organized religion, and my friend was a Christian. I felt a wall between us....a conceptual one....created by him. If we're friends why can't he look into something I feel is so important?

Let it Be

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #28
Thumb_3137 Brian Smith United Kingdom 204 posts in this forum Offline

It doesn't have to be religion. If you recommend a book or a film to someone and they come back later and say that it was rubbish won't you feel that it's a judgement on you. What we call straight talking is really what we do when we don't care about the feelings of the person we're talking to.
I daresay some people on here will say that they're above being offended like this as they're don't form these attachments and they have no ego. You only have to look at the disputes that carry on here to know that's not true.

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #29
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Brian Smith wrote:
You're not saying that there's some alternative to this are you?

Of course there is an alternative to emotional reactions ... hopefully so ...

What does this imply ? Where do emotional reactions come from ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #30
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
If I tell my Christian or Jewish friend that his beliefs are stupid, it's like telling him that HE'S stupid. It feels like a rejection of him.

Exactly Tom, because we identify (erroneously) to our opinions and beliefs ...

Now why is being 'rejected' a problem ?

Isn't it because we fear aloneness ? therefore we want to be 'accepted' and 'recognized' by others ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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