Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Clive aren't you being presumptous?


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Tue, 27 Dec 2016 #91
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4598 posts in this forum Offline

Pavani, I stand by everything I have written about organized religion here and elsewhere. Now I really have to move on. Pack the car and start the long drive out to California and Ojai. I hope you are well and enjoy a good new year. Jack

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Tue, 27 Dec 2016 #92
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8351 posts in this forum Online

pavani rao wrote:
And so often you admonishing people at your will and whim dismissing their posts as if you have become an authority on what K pointed out . It looks you have made an image in your brain of what K pointed out and by all means you need to defend that image ...

Very well observed Pavani, excellent posting ... it is very clear that Jack is defending an idea he makes of K's teachings and what this forum 'should' be in his own view ... not only does he make images about K and the teachings and about his own 'role' in this forum as self-appointed Guardian of K's orthodoxy but about all things and people too, bringing all kinds of judgements and criticism on everything and everyone ... and for once someone else than me has some guts to say it very clearly !

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 27 Dec 2016 #93
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 517 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Jack

Well it's indeed a relief to see no angry words and reactions against what I had written in your post :)

and thanks for using ' gentle ' and ' friendly ' words :)

( polite expression and friendly attitude does matter a lot. isn't it? ) how polite , patient and considerate K used to be all through his discussions and talks with people, we all are aware .

I do have respect for your ' passion ' for K teaching Jack and very often I used to admire your writing style and I remember conveying that much to you in our previous interactions .

Well I do not want to spoil your holiday or journey mood by prolonging this discussion any more Jack and wish both you your wife safe trip and a very good new year ahead . But this much I would like to say whatever you had written about ' organized religion ' may well be very right in its place ... No disagreement on that . But making generalizations or taking even K's words as ultimate do not make much sense , isn't it ? And the real ' inquiry ' is in what way each one of us are affected, and if so how can we ' discern ' one thing from the other ... And as you had already mentioned there are not many people who are the true followers of Christianity and I can say the same about ' Hinduism '.

And as such man is hassled and haggled with much much more deeper problems and our modern day world and our complex societies throwing new problems dime a dozen every day ... And the real question may be as K used to say ' how can one deal with all that ?' And the answer also always used to come back on 'oneself ' only when one 'understands' oneself and 'changes' ... then only there can be solutions and answers ... Isn't 'that' the K texts exhort ? Looks like I'm not sticking to my point of not discussing and not prolonging ... but any how these thoughts you can keep for the road may be .... :)

Happy new year and safe trip once again Jack.

This post was last updated by pavani rao Tue, 27 Dec 2016.

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Tue, 27 Dec 2016 #94
Thumb_3137 Brian Smith United Kingdom 201 posts in this forum Offline

Having a little read I have to say that I don't understand Jack's complaint about the lack of evidence of Jesus's existence. What would satisfy him? This is a long time ago. There was only papyrus knocking about then. There are the gospels though. Wasn't the Mark gospel written in AD 80? Surely that must count for something. Less than 50 years after Christ's death. Also the Mark gospel doesn't go on about the supernatural shit either. It was all added in the later gospels after the paradise hadn't appeared. That shouldn't invalidate the words attributed to him should it?
That's what's been handed down to us and if some choose to see him as a teacher then does it matter if no one can produce his birth certifcate? He said good things. And if it wasn't him but some clever clogs interloper then that guy said good things himself. Do you only take notice of what people say if you verify the speaker's existence? The words are there, and to me they're pretty good.
If someone found a Krishnamurti book in a post nuclear holocaust world and people had created myths around it would you discount the whole thing? Maybe some of it might not be true so then would that mean that it all must have been made up?

This post was last updated by Brian Smith Tue, 27 Dec 2016.

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Tue, 27 Dec 2016 #95
Thumb_r3122 Ken B United States 17 posts in this forum Offline

I think the earliest letter of Paul was written about 20 years after the death of Jesus.

It's interesting that in Buddhism, the teachings of the Buddha were transmitted orally for generations before they were written down....close to 450 years after his death, yet nobody doubts that the Buddha existed.

"...please take some vitamins, put some guts into you and wake up." Krishnamurti

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Tue, 27 Dec 2016 #96
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2777 posts in this forum Offline

Ken B wrote:
I think the earliest letter of Paul was written about 20 years after the death of Jesus.

I know this is not related to the 'teachings', but it's something I've been curious about, as I have some friends who are devout Christians. Do you have a link to this letter, or an article about it?

Let it Be

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Wed, 28 Dec 2016 #97
Thumb_r3122 Ken B United States 17 posts in this forum Offline

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_to_...

"...please take some vitamins, put some guts into you and wake up." Krishnamurti

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Wed, 28 Dec 2016 #98
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2777 posts in this forum Offline

Thanks ken....never knew what epistle meant before. I found this quote quite odd, as it points to the fact that Jesus was teaching this kind of way 'out there' stuff. I'm not a Christian, so am not very knowledgeable about new testament teachings: "Paul goes on to explain that the dead will be resurrected prior to those still living, and both groups will greet the Lord in the air.[16]"

Let it Be

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Mon, 02 Jan 2017 #99
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4598 posts in this forum Offline

Brian Smith wrote:
Having a little read I have to say that I don't understand Jack's complaint about the lack of evidence of Jesus's existence

It's not a complaint that I stated but rather conclusions that those who study whether Jesus existed or not have come to through extensive research. The facts as they have stated are clear and unambiguous and speak for themselves.

Brian Smith wrote:
This is a long time ago. There was only papyrus knocking about then.

Brian Smith wrote:
There was only papyrus knocking about then.

I don't see what the point is that you are trying to make here but you're mistaken. There was also Vellum & Parchment. These things last a very, very long time. Also there were reams of material that were written back 2000 years ago by all manner of writers; poets, philosophers, historians, official records kept by the Romans that have survived to this day and absolutely none of them mention anything resembling a story about a guy who was supposed to be a "savior". Somebody named Jesus Christ. This is one of the major reasons so many biblical scholars don't think there was a "Jesus Christ".

Brian Smith wrote:
And if it wasn't him but some clever clogs interloper then that guy said good things himself. Do you only take notice of what people say if you verify the speaker's existence? The words are there, and to me they're pretty good.

Brian why do you need a religious authority figure to believe in or listen to? Or as K has asked us all: "Why do you look for a light outside of yourself? Be your own light. Find out for yourself".

Brian Smith wrote:
If someone found a Krishnamurti book in a post nuclear holocaust world and people had created myths around it would you discount the whole thing?

I think the real question is would you just accept what you found because it sounds good to you or would you find out for yourself? Accepting what others say is not finding out for yourself. And without finding out for yourself you will never understand conditioning and all the rest. Do you understand that? K repeated this over and over again. Why do you and so many others ignore this?

Brian Smith wrote:
Maybe some of it might not be true so then would that mean that it all must have been made up?

You mean like the stuff in the Christian bible, the old testament and all of the other so-called "religious" books? That's why you have to find out for yourself and not accept what others say.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 02 Jan 2017.

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Mon, 02 Jan 2017 #100
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4598 posts in this forum Offline

Ken B wrote:
It's interesting that in Buddhism, the teachings of the Buddha were transmitted orally for generations before they were written down....close to 450 years after his death, yet nobody doubts that the Buddha existed.

Well, you're wrong there Ken. There are a great many people who doubt the existence of the Buddha for whatever reasons. Research it. The Buddha was saying something quite different from Christianity. Buddhism doesn't seem to mention "god" or saviors or steps to becoming "saved" as Christianity does. People who follow the Buddha's teachings, many of them, seem to have deified him, made a god of him just like they probably will of K.

I'm no expert but from what I've read of what the Buddha was saying is you have to do it yourself whereas the Christians seem to be saying all you have to do is "accept Jesus into your heart", "Jesus as your personal savior" and JC will do all of the heavy lifting while you sit on your ass and bask in the "glory of god". What complete rot.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 02 Jan 2017.

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Mon, 02 Jan 2017 #101
Thumb_3137 Brian Smith United Kingdom 201 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Brian why do you need a religious authority figure to believe in or listen to? Or as K has asked us all: "Why do you look for a light outside of yourself? Be your own light. Find out for yourself".

I don't need a religious authority to believe in. That's why I don't believe in one. But that doesn't mean that I shouldn't want to listen to one. Why shouldn't I?

Jack Pine wrote:
I think the real question is would you just accept what you found because it sounds good to you or would you find out for yourself? Accepting what others say is not finding out for yourself. And without finding out for yourself you will never understand conditioning and all the rest. Do you understand that? K repeated this over and over again. Why do you and so many others ignore this?

Jack, I'll have to take your word for that.

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #102
Thumb_trees jamie f United Kingdom 72 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I'm no expert but from what I've read of what the Buddha was saying is you have to do it yourself whereas the Christians seem to be saying all you have to do is "accept Jesus into your heart", "Jesus as your personal savior" and JC will do all of the heavy lifting while you sit on your ass and bask in the "glory of god".

Well you're no theologian that's for sure. :-) There's a little more to it than that. And you're still not getting the point - the point being that if you want to prove that Jesus lived, you don't look in ancient parchment, you look in your heart and if you find Him there then that is the only proof you will ever need.

'It's there, as if it were behind a curtain.'

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #103
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4598 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
if you want to prove that Jesus lived, you don't look in ancient parchment, you look in your heart and if you find Him there then that is the only proof you will ever need.

Yes, thank you I do appreciate your sense of humor. But you know many people really believe this nonsense and it's not funny because they are wasting their lives in illusion and ignorance. This prison of religious belief is also helping to destroy the world because so many are waiting for "Jesus" or some other fictitious person to come back and "save" them instead of changing themselves and the way they live.

Fortunately for you and me and so many others there is K and possibly others who have come to shed light on the darkest of religious belief. Was it enough and was it in time? Who knows.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 05 Jan 2017.

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #104
Thumb_3135 Jo D United Kingdom 38 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
emotional reactions tell more about who we are (as 'ego') than all our rational justifications and social conformisms ...

I have up until recently been paying more attention to just the noticing of a reaction and stopping there, than to what exactly the reaction is, what it's made up of. And then when I have a look, there is often a secondary reaction of wanting to run away from the looking, because it just feels so uncomfortable.

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #105
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8351 posts in this forum Online

Jo D wrote:
And then when I have a look, there is often a secondary reaction of wanting to run away from the looking, because it just feels so uncomfortable.

Well certainly so Jo, this is why most people are looking for all kinds of 'escapes' like addictions, entertainment, rituals, habits, phobias etc ... a whole strategy of 'pain avoidance' ... which is clearly 'neurotic' behaviour ... we prefer to 'suppress/repress/mask' the pain than face it ...

That's why K said "Why can't we face the actual ?" (see the other discussion)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 06 Jan 2017 #106
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3712 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
in your heart and if you find Him there then that is the only proof you will ever need.

The heart, pumps blood, it's a muscle. What you are referring to, is imagination.

Stuff happens

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Fri, 06 Jan 2017 #107
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3712 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Yes, thank you I do appreciate your sense of humor.

Oh, Jo was just kidding? Oops, sorry Jo. ;)

Stuff happens

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Fri, 06 Jan 2017 #108
Thumb_r3122 Ken B United States 17 posts in this forum Offline

CELESTIAL BEING ??

From Krishnamurti: 100 Years: Evelyne Blau

A Personal Account by Dr. Asha Lee, November, 1969, Rishi Valley

"The school had many gardens so I was delighted to do the flowers in his apartment when Krishnaji arrived. Early in the morning at four, or late in the afternoon after the sun had gone down I would walk through the gardens and cut the flowers so they would be fresh. If I cut them at night, I would put them in buckets of water to keep until the morning. My object was to go to his apartment before Krishnaji would wake up and delight him with fresh flowers. I would tiptoe up the steps with these buckets of flowers, collect the vases of old flowers from the rooms of the apartment and bring them to a doorway of the west facing veranda. There was enough early morning light so I wouldn’t have to tum on a light. I would sit in the doorway and arrange the flowers. I would set them all around in different parts of the rooms, and then return to our cottage, which was next door.

EB: Did Krishnamurti know that you were doing this?

AL: I had also gone later to leave letter paper and pencils there and had taken juice up to the apartment. Well, what happened after two or three days was that when I walked in they were all having breakfast and the Principal, Dr. Balasundaram said, “Come in and join us for breakfast.” I did, and he told Krishnaji, “This is Asha, and she is the one who is doing the flowers and brings the juice in the mornings.” So he realized that it was me doing the flowers. I don’t know whether the incident I am going to tell you about was before or after that breakfast. One of those mornings when I was arranging the flowers I heard, as if from the bedroom (which was at the back of the big room where I was arranging the flowers) I heard sounds as if someone was getting up, so I became very quiet. Realizing that that was Krishnaji’s bedroom, and maybe he was getting up and wouldn’t know I was there, I didn’t want to startle or disturb him, so I became very quiet and stopped what I was doing. Then I heard the wooden slippers that he wore in India; the Kharow which has a little knob that goes between the big toe and the rest of the toes. When you walk with those wooden slippers, you can hear the wood clapping on the floor. I heard the clap of his steps going towards the bathroom. I said to myself, “Yes, now he’ll go back to bed.” But then he walked on and went through the next room, which was like a reception room where he had meetings and discussions. He went through that room and then came across the veranda in front of the living room on the eastern side of the apartment where I sat with the flowers all around me. I shrank from the lighted area into the shadowed part of the doorway so that I wouldn’t startle him. I sat quietly as he passed on his way to the dining room. What I saw was amazing because it wasn’t the figure of Krishnaji who passed by. It was an unusually tall luminescent figure that passed. He looked like the figure of the Buddha, with the same kind of stature. This figure went towards the kitchen and then came back again in a few moments. This time, as he passed the living room door, he stopped and turned and smiled, as if saying, “I know you’re there.” I just sat there absolutely still. I couldn’t understand this at all. There was no fear, it was extraordinary. It was something very beautiful.

EB: It was Krishnamurti?

AL: Well, it was Krishnamurti, because that was his bedroom. He had come from there, he walked through his bathroom, across the veranda to the dining room, kitchen, and then back again. There was no one else in that apartment.

EB: Could you describe in what way he appeared to be different?

AL: Krishnaji is a very slender, delicate, small-statured person. This figure was at least twice his height and bigger. It was as if there was a light within the body. The face was very peaceful and compassionate and there seemed to be something over the head. Because I have seen paintings from Ajanta and Ellora and other places it reminded me of the Buddha with that head and figure. I sat there very still for some time, then I picked up my things very quickly and quietly went down the stairs. I was shaking all the way. I told my husband, Mark, what I had seen and I never told anyone else about it because it was something so sacred that I didn’t want to belittle it by talking about it. The only other person I did tell, until now, was Krishnaji before he died. I went to see him. I requested to see him privately, as I did every year. It was a very poignant question in my mind. I said, “Krishnaji, I want to ask you about something that I saw. I’m not a superstitious kind of person, I don’t usually see visions, even if I see something or if I hear something in the dark I go and check it out; I’m related to fact and reality.” I explained to him how I was in his apartment in those early years, soon after I had gotten married and gone to Rishi Valley, and how I was sitting over there and what I had seen. He sat with his hands folded and his head bowed. After I had finished he looked up and said, “You saw something. Why do you question it?” I said, “I’m not questioning it because I did see it, but I’m just trying to understand it. I thought maybe talking with you would explain it.” He said, “You saw it, there is no other explanation.” We sat very quietly while he held my hand and then I came away. That occurrence in the first year that I was at Rishi Valley established in me a relationship with Krishnaji. There was something beyond the ordinary that was present that morning. When I attended his talks I felt there was the presence of something extraordinary and I am sure many other people felt it as well."

"...please take some vitamins, put some guts into you and wake up." Krishnamurti

This post was last updated by Ken B Fri, 06 Jan 2017.

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Fri, 06 Jan 2017 #109
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2777 posts in this forum Offline

It's possible that this image of the Buddha-like being was created in her brain, no? Like the image in a dream which seems to be quite real.

Let it Be

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Fri, 06 Jan 2017 #110
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4598 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
But what about Krishnamurti? What about all that 'among the masters' stuff that he never quite shook off?

Really? How do you know whether he shook it off or not?

jamie f wrote:
How do you separate man from myth? Does it even matter? And if it doesn't matter for K, then why would it matter for Jesus?

Some people on here have said, ignorantly, that Christianity is saying the same thing as K and vice-versa. That couldn't be further from the truth. Christianity is about Jesus and what he can do for you if you "let him into your heart". What K pointed out is not about K but about YOU understanding yourself and realizing that you are not separate from the rest of humanity. K is not your savior and he was not hear to lead you anywhere. Not here to be your authority or to bring you comfort. K is not your little religious Teddy Bear to cuddle up to like Jesus is for so many people. Do you understand?

Christianity tries to elevate the individual by instilling a "soul" in it and by offering "eternal bliss" to the person who is nothing more than a collection of memories.

Christianity says you are made in the image of "God" and if you accept "god" and "jesus" you'll live forever. K points out, as I wrote above, that you are "nothing". That psychologically you are your consciousness which dies when the body dies.

As long as you hang onto, be dependent upon, Jesus or K or anyone else you are a dead human being who's life is the past, who's life is an illusion.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 06 Jan 2017.

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Fri, 06 Jan 2017 #111
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4598 posts in this forum Offline

Christianity is based on "becoming" which is time and not on understanding who you are. Christianity is based on becoming saved, on becoming "pure" according to Christian values. A religion that has always been deeply corrupted and has murdered more people probably than any other religion on earth.

For you to bring your "Christian values" to this site and compare what that dead religion has said with what K pointed out is not only an abomination but shows that that person who does this has absolutely no idea and no interest in what K pointed out. K is not another Jesus for you to hold onto and play with like a little girl plays with a Barbie Doll.

Read today's Kinfonet quote and the previous three or four quotes about religion.

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Fri, 06 Jan 2017 #112
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4598 posts in this forum Offline

Ken B wrote:
A Personal Account by Dr. Asha Lee, November, 1969, Rishi Valley

I have met Asha Lee several times. I don't know her. She seems like a nice and intelligent person. She is also deeply Indian with all the thousands of years of conditioning that goes along with that particular culture and she "sees" things within the context of that conditioning.

Don't always believe everything you read.

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Fri, 06 Jan 2017 #113
Thumb_3137 Brian Smith United Kingdom 201 posts in this forum Offline

I'll agree that Christianity and all the other disorganised religions aren't literally true. Anyone sensibile knows that. To me it's always been obvious.
However these religions exist because we wanted them to. They don't exist independantly from humanity. It's not some unwanted parcel that's been handed to us. Religions, superstitions answer something in our psyche. Just to pretend otherwise for ideological reasons is a bit naive. Irrational faith and hope are hard wired into the brain and all the reasoning won't change that.
You can't say that you don't hope for things to happen. We all do, but it doesn't make it any more likely to occur, yet we still do it. Imagine you're waiting for the crops to grow. Please, please make the crops grow - life or death this is. We wanted to think we could influence that and that's why we invented God. Just to get rid of him intellectually won't really get him to make his excuses and leave the party. And I'm not just talking about organised religion but any of the unproved, irrational beliefs that people hold.
I think if, just like that, you can sweep all this supernatural stuff away then you are indeed lucky. It's certainly better than a labotomy.
Don't follow leaders and watch your parking meters. The interdependence of people also isn't something you can discount with logic either. We're group creatures and we behave as such. There's always an Alpha in the picture. People will follow other people though we all like to think we don't. Who knows, maybe not following leaders and understanding yourself might be just another faith idea. I mean do you really understand yourselves? Are you really learning about yourselves? Are you really observing yourselves? It's certainly not easy to do, not with your eyes closed anyway.

This post was last updated by Brian Smith Fri, 06 Jan 2017.

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Fri, 06 Jan 2017 #114
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1791 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
But what about Krishnamurti? What about all that 'among the masters' stuff that he never quite shook off? Do we ignore it? Sideline it as K did?

I suggest it was a life lesson that taught K all that was required to completely understand conditioning. Which enabled him to put the lesson down and walk away from it, taking from it only the understanding.

It was not sidelined - it was fully understood, and therefore of no further importance.

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Sat, 07 Jan 2017 #115
Thumb_trees jamie f United Kingdom 72 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
K is not your savior and he was not hear to lead you anywhere. Not here to be your authority or to bring you comfort. K is not your little religious Teddy Bear to cuddle up to like Jesus is for so many people. Do you understand?

Jack Pine wrote:
For you to bring your "Christian values" to this site and compare what that dead religion has said with what K pointed out is not only an abomination but shows that that person who does this has absolutely no idea and no interest in what K pointed out. K is not another Jesus for you to hold onto and play with like a little girl plays with a Barbie Doll.

I assume this is for my benefit. Thank you for the information. Now, for your information may i make it clear that i am not a Christian and have no "Christian values". However, in a way i think it would be rather nice if there was no historical basis for the existence of one person called 'Jesus' as that would make it a collaborative work from several sources, almost like the participants of this forum getting together and coming up with something rather special instead of the hubris and bickering that it is notorious for.

'It's there, as if it were behind a curtain.'

This post was last updated by jamie f Sat, 07 Jan 2017.

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Sat, 07 Jan 2017 #116
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 920 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
However, in a way i think it would be rather nice if there was no historical basis for the existence of one person called 'Jesus' as that would make it a collaborative work from several sources, almost like the participants of this forum getting together and coming up with something rather special instead of the hubris and bickering that it is notorious for.

Jamie

I'll agree with you, the existence of any specific person, as we can see in the world as well as on this forum can become something rather special on which the hubris and bickering goes on.

So it's not the famous person lived or not, but how we ordinary human beings are doing with the information given.

I for example was raised as a christian and although I see the whole structure of the church as completly insane, there are values in christianity which are no different from what K. is talking about, but are not executed by this same church as there are values where K. is speaking about which are not visible on this forum.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 07 Jan 2017 #117
Thumb_trees jamie f United Kingdom 72 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
So it's not the famous person lived or not, but how we ordinary human beings are doing with the information given.

Wim, that's how i see it too.

Wim Opdam wrote:
I for example was raised as a christian and although I see the whole structure of the church as completly insane, there are values in christianity which are no different from what K. is talking about, but are not executed by this same church as there are values where K. is speaking about which are not visible on this forum.

Indeed. Very well put.

'It's there, as if it were behind a curtain.'

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