Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What is 'Inner division'?


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Wed, 28 Dec 2016 #61
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
this is what you think you are ... go deeper Tom

There's someone to do this? It seems to me that this is the positive approach to truth that K warned of.

QOTD: Any positive approach to the unknown will make the unknown knowable and therefore that is not the Truth

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 28 Dec 2016.

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Wed, 28 Dec 2016 #62
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
There's someone to do this? It seems to me that this is the positive approach to truth that K warned of.

When there is attention, is there someone 'doing' this ? Do you need thought to be attentive ? ... or rather is there attention only when there is no thought ? Isn't thought itself a factor for inattention ?

So paying attention is going deeper than thought ... and there is no one doing this, no doer and no thinker ... just seeing ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Wed, 28 Dec 2016.

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Wed, 28 Dec 2016 #63
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
When there is attention

Attention to what? You were speaking of the 'heart'...and 'presence'. How might one be attentive to that?

Let it Be

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Wed, 28 Dec 2016 #64
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Attention to what? You were speaking of the 'heart'...and 'presence'. How might one be attentive to that?

Yes exactly Tom, pay attention to silence, to stillness, to presence ... if you can feel your physical heart, pay attention to that, feel the beating in your chest, even in your hands or other parts of your body ... you will see that you cannot at the same time think and feel your heart beat ... as soon as you think you lose your heart (so to say) ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 28 Dec 2016 #65
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
Yes, the essential idea/concept being the separate 'me' ...

The essence of this Jean, is the reliance on the authority of thinking.

Stuff happens

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Wed, 28 Dec 2016 #66
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
, pay attention to silence, to stillness, to presence

I thought you said I AM that presence. Is there two of me or one of me? If I AM stillness, who must pay attention to stillness?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 28 Dec 2016.

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Thu, 29 Dec 2016 #67
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
If I AM stillness, who must pay attention to stillness?

Asking more questions is useless Tom ... just BE still ... and see what happens ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 29 Dec 2016 #68
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
The essence of this Jean, is the reliance on the authority of thinking.

WHO is it who gives authority to thought ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 29 Dec 2016 #69
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Asking more questions is useless Tom ... just BE still ... and see what happens ...

I'm only questioning what seems to be dogma, Jean. I think it's more important to look at(investigate together) what actually IS ....the fact....the noise, if that is the fact....than seek out the ideal....of stillness, 'heart', presence, or whatever. Noise can't BE stillnes if noise is what is. But in 'letting it be' what it is....not trying to make it into something else....it may tell us its story.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 29 Dec 2016.

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Thu, 29 Dec 2016 #70
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 882 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I'm only questioning what seems to be dogma, Jean. I think it's more important to look at(investigate together) what actually IS

It seems to be very difficult to look and investigate together Tom. This is what Krishnamurti had to say about communicating and "communing".

"TO COMMUNICATE with one another, even if we know each other very well, is extremely difficult. I may use words that may have to you a significance different from mine. Understanding comes when we, you and I, meet on the same level at the same time. That happens only when there is real affection between people, between husband and wife, between intimate fiends. That is real communion. Instantaneous understanding comes when we meet on the same level at the same time.

It is very difficult to commune with one another easily, effectively and with definitive action. I am using words which are simple, which are not technical, because I do not think that any technical type of expression is going to help us solve our difficult problems; so I am not going to use any technical terms, either of psychology or of science. I have not read any books on psychology or any religious books, fortunately. I would like to convey, by the very simple words which we use in our daily life, a deeper significance; but that is very difficult if you do not know how to listen."

J. Krishnamurti The First and Last Freedom Chapter 1 Introduction.

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Thu, 29 Dec 2016 #71
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

K. on observing what actually is...the fact(the noise)... as opposed to seeking an ideal....of stillness, presence, 'heart', whatever:

Posted on John's forum: (...) There is a religious revolution which takes place in the individual when there is no becoming of any kind, that is, when I inwardly see the fact of what I am without any form of distortion: the fact that I am envious, acquisitive, Utterly lacking in humility. If I am aware of the fact of what I am and do not approach it with an opinion, with a judgment, with an evaluation - because opinion, judgment and evaluation are based on the intention of transforming the fact, which is the desire to become something - then that fact itself brings about a transformation in which there is no becoming at all.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 29 Dec 2016.

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Thu, 29 Dec 2016 #72
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

Of course it is . All the rest is but an escape. The mind can live according to an idea of freedom. A concept, an illusion can calm the mind. But it is a little prison, an illusion, a dead small pond away from the flow of the river.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Thu, 29 Dec 2016.

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Thu, 29 Dec 2016 #73
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

(From the same quote from John's forum)

Do you see how the mind deceives itself? Can you bring the Unknown, that which cannot be experienced, into the conditioned, into the realm of the known? Obviously not. So don't try it. Don't try to find God, truth, for it has no meaning. All you can do is to observe the operation of your own mind, which is the area of conflict, misery, suffering, ambition, fulfilment, frustration. That you can understand, and its narrow borders can be broken down.

So, a man who is aware of all this is not concerned with Reality, with the Immeasurable, the Unknowable; he is concerned with the ending of envy, with the ending of sorrow, with the ending of this whole process of becoming. That you can do - you can do it every day by being alert to your envy, watchful of the way you talk, the way you show respect which is no respect, the way you acquire, accumulate. Through self-knowledge the mind can liberate itself from its limitations, its conditioning, and this liberating of itself from conditioning is meditation.

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Thu, 29 Dec 2016 #74
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
WHO is it who gives authority to thought ?

Asking more questions is useless.....;)

The human biological entity, of course.

Stuff happens

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Fri, 30 Dec 2016 #75
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
The human biological entity, of course.

Isn't authority created out of fear ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 30 Dec 2016 #76
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
randall merryman wrote:

The human biological entity, of course.
Isn't authority created out of fear ?

Thought/memory/experience itself it the authority...fear is part of it yes. Also all the pleasures I'm attached to. They control my actions, therefore we might call that control a form of authority? I'm a slave to those attachments...and in some cases I enslave others to ensure my continued fulfillment. Isn't it all created by thought?

randall merryman wrote:
Jean Gatti wrote:

WHO is it who gives authority to thought ?

The who is just another thought, right?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 30 Dec 2016.

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Sat, 31 Dec 2016 #77
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
Isn't authority created out of fear ?

Is it? The predominant creation/expression of fear, is anger/violence. Reliance upon the authority of knowledge/thinking, comes out of confusion/ignorance/laziness, doesn't it?

Stuff happens

This post was last updated by randall merryman (account deleted) Sat, 31 Dec 2016.

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Sat, 31 Dec 2016 #78
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
I'm a slave to those attachments...and

...and, all forms of knowledge/thinking, inside and out.(it's all inside, actually. But we experience some of it as if it were outside)

Stuff happens

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Sat, 31 Dec 2016 #79
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
The who is just another thought, right?

Questions of this nature(not yours, but also yours) are the reliance upon the authority of knowledge/thinking. It is a great leap forward to be able to ask right questions (questions that do not spring from the authority of thinking/knowledge).

Stuff happens

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Sat, 31 Dec 2016 #80
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

I'm a slave to those attachments...and
...and, all forms of knowledge/thinking, inside and out.(it's all inside, actually. But we experience some of it as if it were outside)

What is this 'outside' knowledge you're referring to randall? Are you referring to my thoughts, images, opinions about 'you', which keep 'you' outside....separate from 'me'? It appears that my thoughts and images about you are actually coming from you...from outside of me. They are a characteristic of you...or so it feels....ie., my image of my wife or friend or enemy seems to be something real in them....a characteristic of them.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 31 Dec 2016.

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