Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Enlightenment...

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Sat, 24 Sep 2016 #1
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOUilsuZj1E

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Fri, 30 Sep 2016.

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Sun, 25 Sep 2016 #2
Thumb_dev Dev Singh United States 43 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias,

While many here I am sure appreciate the works of Van Morrison, Bob Dylan, Marley etc., these type of links are out of place here - except on rare occasion. Would you mind sharing them via private message if you feel specific individuals want to listen to this.

Many years ago we used to have a forum called "The Lounge" for this kind of post - but that had to be closed.

Thanks,

Dev

Kinfonet Admin

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Mon, 26 Sep 2016 #3
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Actually, Dev, Van Morrison was greatly influenced by Krishnamurti's teaching and we do not only have to use words to initiate and/ or generate the right atmosphere for a general discussion, do we?

Sometimes a song or a quote from another author points to or says something better than just one's own words and it is surely up to me how I want to connect and/or communicate with others here. If you want to you can always make a rule saying "don't post any songs or relevant quotes from authors who are not Jiddu Krishnamurti". Unless or until you do that, comrade, I will continue to do so.

Cheers, Katy

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Mon, 26 Sep 2016.

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Mon, 26 Sep 2016 #4
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

When K was still alive and still giving talks, or gatherings as they were called then, we were asked not to bring food or drink or any kind of music either recorded or live to the Oak Grove. It was not only to show respect for the Grove and discussions but to set the appropiate e energy or atmosphere for the talks. This was done to keep the talks from being turned into a circus. The talks were not an entertainment but a serious discussion of life. Dev is right. Are we here to be entertained or to seriously discuss life and the problems that block us from really being alive?

I have occasionally posted music on here but I won't do it again in order to help foster a serious discussion environment.

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Mon, 26 Sep 2016 #5
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Jack,

The difference - or problem rather- though, as I see this, is that we are not in the same room and e-conversations are (obviously) different.

It was my hope that this most pertinent song from Van Morrison might serve as a good conversation starter...(one time he was on stage he thanked Krishnamurti for what he'd learned from him ).

Another good reason for including relevant songs or quotes from different authors sometimes is that these help us to see K's teachings in context..."the word is not (always) the thing"!

Sharing a song can also help to 'harmonise' and be evocative, too, in a useful way with respect to e-converstions. There is an understandable 'need', in fact, that this writer sees to be free to complement the serious - helping to unlock people from the serious - or rather too serious element of the word alone here at times....especially since we are are not in the same room/atmosphere. (You are, of course, free to disagree with this observation of mine - and just have !).

For me, a general discussion is whatever people want to bring to it- everyone has different things to bring and too many rules can for sure be 'conversation - killers'. However, if Dev wants to introduce a new rule based on this that is up to him.

Life is a struggle of opposites between the serious and the frivolous (Virginia)

I don't only post songs, do I? in fact I am far too serious here (mostly) and the last thread I initiated of a discussion between K and Iris Murdoch only received one reply!

Thanks though, Jack, for telling us what K said about this.

Regards, Katy

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Mon, 26 Sep 2016.

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Mon, 26 Sep 2016 #6
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

...Subsequent questions:

What is the relationship between joy and entertainment?

What is our interest in reading K with respect to ending sorrow if we are not free to share (our) joy ?

What is the relationship between freedom and spontaneity ?

Are discussions not also a form of 'entertainment' - is there not entertainment residing, too, in 'the word' albeit 'serious'?

Did the words of the song 'enlightenment' in the opening post evoke anything for anyone else reading here...and, if so, what ?

What would you say/see to be the link between transformation (of consciousness), self-negation and 'enlightenment'? Are these one and the same in your view. Or do you feel resistant to talking about that which is more than likely an 'unknown' to you/me/us - fearing that discussing 'enlightenment' will be nothing more than 'talking out of our hats' ?

Are questions actually helpful ? This writer could list probably a hundred questions with respect to this word - possibility or actuality for some folks of 'enlightenment'-but is this of any help for the reader, really ? Also, if it is a truism that the answer is in the question, why do we converse, enquire together at all here?

What is your understanding of 'being a light to' yourself?

...and so on !

If music be the food of love play on Shakespeare :)

I hope y'all are having a good day... your peace is my peace comrades, Katy

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Mon, 26 Sep 2016.

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Mon, 26 Sep 2016 #7
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

This room is so stuffy I can hardly breathe ! (Bob Dylan) ...so I think I'll take a hike - not write here further. Hardly anyone else does, anyway.

Dev has been very quick to criticise me without actually understanding the 'why of it'. Why go to a place where one is not welcome ? There are lots of other places to write to concerning K's teachings.

All the best, comrades. Katy

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Mon, 26 Sep 2016 #8
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

What is the relationship between joy and entertainment? None? Joy as K used it on occasion was not the prduct of thought. But once again we are dealing with words and their meanings. Can we say joy is something that is not thought dependent and happiness is related to thought?

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Mon, 26 Sep 2016 #9
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
Why go to a place where one is not welcome ? There are lots of other places to write to concerning K's teachings.

Hi Katy,

Sorry to learn you have a feeling of not being welcome on this place,
which to me is definitely not the case.

Something different is not being listen to, is there also a feeling of not being heard ? To me it seems that K. must have had that same feeling all of is live and still continued, why ?

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Mon, 26 Sep 2016.

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Tue, 27 Sep 2016 #10
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

Katy, first of all I hope you remain on the forum. You brought new energy here which we badly needed.

katy I liked the music you posted but you can see that posting off topic or superflous topics and music could lead to a real zoo. A hodge podge of links from people which are completely off the wall. Not everyone has your discriminating taste.

Don`t run Katy. Stick with it you have a lot to say and add to this forum.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 27 Sep 2016.

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Tue, 27 Sep 2016 #11
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 882 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
What is the relationship between joy and entertainment?

Hi Katy and all. I think it would be a shame if you stopped writing here Katy as I always find your contributions interesting and like reading them. Here's something K said about music and joy:

Question: I am a lover of music, and I derive joy from it. Is that emotion?

Krishnamurti: If music becomes an addiction, it is an impediment. You hear music and you have joy. Then you name that joy and want a repetition of it. Then that joy is emotion and is brought into the field of thought. It therefore ceases to be joy but only memory. Therefore, it is an impediment. When music is an escape from daily routine, it is not a joy but a night-mare. There is joy when there is constant freshness and not when you take joy into memory and bring it into the field of thought.

The Observer is the Observed

Madras, India. Group Discussion 18th April, 1948

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Tue, 27 Sep 2016 #12
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Jack, Sean and Wim,

Thank you for your kind words, quotes from K- for letting me see the other side so to speak, too.

One Sunday, several years ago, I got on my bike and went along to what was advertised as a Krishnamurti video and discussion group...I remember being quite shy but was just as enthusiastic as I was shy. Much to my disappointment, however, the group facilitator suggested that we all watch the tennis together instead because Wimbledon was on. They were very nice people but I remarked to myself that if I had wanted to watch the tennis I could have done so at home !I didn't have a computer then and nor were videos of K's talks available to us on the internet.

How lovely it would be to be with y'all around a campfire with my geetar - jamming together would surely be a healthy complement - antidote, even, to the intensity of this atmosphere where we sometimes overdose on words ! I never had any formal lessons but did teach myself at the age of 17 the major and a number of minor chords from a book so can strum along; I only had a classical guitar which was extra difficult to play folk songs on because of the wide neck. Learning any instrument requires discipline as I'm sure y'all already know/see- is not an addiction talking. As I've aged though, my relationship with music - both listening and playing - has changed; I like the peace and quite very much but sometimes this silence can feel like thunder !as Leonard Cohen sang.

Anyway, only talking /writing can also be or become an addiction in my view - too much of anything can be an addiction, can't it, comrades ? This said, a very good friend of mine said that writing is medicine.

Cheers, Katy

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Tue, 27 Sep 2016.

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Tue, 27 Sep 2016 #13
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

...And yes, Jack, I agree with your observation about 'joy'- entertainment suggests something prescribed or 'motivated' by the me or 'my' thought/intention, orchestrated and not actually 'spontaneous' in/of nature perhaps ?- I am not sure...spent the afternoon walking by the riverside the other day - then sitting on a bench watching the reflections of the sunlight in play on the water was just lovely and was free from the word (obviously).

Right now, I'm typing this in a friend's flower-filled small garden but can also hear the buzzing of some builders' power tools which is annoying, really.

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Tue, 27 Sep 2016.

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Tue, 27 Sep 2016 #14
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
This said, a very good friend of mine said that writing is medicine.

Hi Katy,

Yes indeed, everything has the potential to become something it's not meant to be.

In my life cycling was a medicine, it never became a profession,
not because of lack of talent. In my first ever official race I beated a guy who was never beated before in a time race.
He Became later in his career a Tour de France winner.
But at 22 I had my second eye operation and thought with my lack of depth perception a career was out of order.

Cycling became a hobby and still is,
but was also a medicine in times when life was very hard to me.

Writing became much later a medicine in my life and still is.

In Dutch I wrote a poem that loses in English its rhyme and rhythm but comes down to this:

I'm a Poet, by expressing my feelings, my feelings changing and I'm more open.
In Dutch 'Poet' is the opposite of 'closed'. ( Dichter - Opener )

So keep on writing !

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 27 Sep 2016.

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Wed, 28 Sep 2016 #15
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Wim,

Thanks for your interesting post (no.14).

Gosh, you must have been a very fast cyclist ! Sorry to hear that your vision got in the way of this. And, yes, I know/see how cycling can be medicinal,too... for me, long-distance running and other 'tougher' sports used to be just great but since being ill (as well as aging !) I have only been able to enjoy gentler sports - instead of running these days I walk instead and hope to be fit enough to run again soon. (Some people do so right into old age).

With respect to emptying the mind of thought, physical activity does, for sure, do this - is very 'grounding' and also lends itself to greater 'equanimity' or feelings of 'at oneness' with Nature, too, doesn't it? A runner's high - or a cyclist's high - yay !:)

That's interesting Wim, isn't it, that in Dutch the word for 'poet' is the same as 'open' - and, for sure, reading and/or writing poems which sometimes become song lyrics when put to music are appreciated by this writer. This can also make things less 'linear' in terms of communicating 'what is' - or what some refer to as the 'eternal present'.

Please feel free to write as 'poetically'/openly as you feel to, comrades, in response to any discussions I start. It would make better sense for us each to decide for ourselves about whether music and/or references from other authors are welcome - to take responsibility for - 'moderate' - the conversations we start on an individual basis. We are all different and so have different things to bring to discussions and ways of writing, too - thankfully !

Cheers, Katy

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Wed, 28 Sep 2016.

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Wed, 28 Sep 2016 #16
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
That's interesting Wim, isn't it, that in Dutch the word for 'poet' is the same as 'open'

Strange because from what I know 'dicht' in Dutch means 'closed' ... and 'dichter' means 'closer, nearer' and also 'poet' ...

??

http://en.bab.la/dictionary/dutch-english/dicht

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Wed, 28 Sep 2016.

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Wed, 28 Sep 2016 #17
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Oh well, Jean, I don't know any Dutch...do you know the phrase: "double- Dutch" ?- :)

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Wed, 28 Sep 2016.

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Wed, 28 Sep 2016 #18
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Strange because from what I know 'dicht' in Dutch means 'closed' ... and 'dichter' means 'closer, nearer' and also 'poet' ...

Jean, knowing you also know Dutch, so for good understanding I'll put the poem first in Dutch and then translated.
Do with it what makes you happy.

Ik ben dichter
door te pogen
mijn gevoelens
te verwoorden
verworden
mijn gevoelens
en ben ik
opener.

I'm a Poet
by attempting
to verbalize
my feelings
my feelings
degenerate
and am I
more open.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Wed, 28 Sep 2016.

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Wed, 28 Sep 2016 #19
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

So here I am, in the middle way, having had twenty years-
Twenty years largely wasted, the years of l'entre deux guerres-
Trying to use words, and every attempt
Is a wholy new start, and a different kind of failure
Because one has only learnt to get the better of words
For the thing one no longer has to say, or the way in which
One is no longer disposed to say it. And so each venture
Is a new beginning, a raid on the inarticulate,
With shabby equipment always deteriorating
In the general mess of imprecision of feeling,
Undisciplined squads of emotion. And what there is to conquer
By strength and submission, has already been discovered
Once or twice, or several times, by men whom one cannot hope
To emulate - but there is no competition -
There is only the fight to recover what has been lost
And found and lost again and again: and now, under conditions
That seem unpropitious. But perhaps neither gain nor loss.
For us, there is only the trying. The rest is not our business
."
T.S. Eliot, Four Quartets

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Wed, 28 Sep 2016 #20
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

Back to the initial topic 'Enlightenment...'

although we are unable to know what 'Enlightenment'is, because it is not knowing, we can say that it is a gift, like life is a gift, but we treat it more like a right to have.

Such as the desire to have children as long as we don't have them and afterwards transferring them to others to raise because we do not have time for that.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Wed, 28 Sep 2016 #21
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, for sure, Wim. Thanks.There is so much 'out there' for people to read about what 'enlightenment' is or might be, isn't there ? I just found the following (for example):

By Barbara O'Brien:

Most people have heard that the Buddha was enlightened, and that Buddhists seek enlightenment. But what does that mean, exactly? What is enlightenment, and how do you know when you've "got" it?
To begin, it's important to understand that "enlightenment" is an English word that can mean several things. For example, in the West, the Age of Enlightenment was a philosophical movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that promoted science and reason over myth and superstition. In western culture, then, the word "enlightenment" is often associated with intellect and knowledge. But Buddhist enlightenment is something else.
Enlightenment and Satori
To add to the confusion, the word "enlightenment" has been used to translate several Asian words that don't mean precisely the same thing. For example, several decades ago English speakers were introduced to Buddhism through the writing of D.T. Suzuki (1870-1966), a Japanese scholar who had lived for a time as a Rinzai Zen monk.
Suzuki used "enlightenment" to translate the Japanese word satori, derived from the verb satoru, "to know." This translation was not without justification.
But in usage, satori usually refers to an experience of insight into the true nature of reality. It has been compared to the experience of opening a door, but to open a door is still a separation from what's inside the door. Partly through Suzuki's influence, the idea of spiritual enlightenment as a sudden, blissful, transformative experience became embedded in western culture. However,that's a misleading idea.
Enlightenment and Bodhi (Theravada)
Bodhi is a Sanskrit and Pali word that means "awakening," and it also is often translated as "enlightenment."
In Theravada Buddhism, bodhi is associated with the perfection of insight into the Four Noble Truths, which brings about the cessation of dukkha (suffering; stress; dissatisfaction). The person who has perfected this insight and abandoned all defilements is an arhat, one who is liberated from the cycle of samsara. While alive he enters a sort of conditional nirvana, and at death he enjoys the peace of complete nirvana.
In the Atthinukhopariyaayo Sutta of the Pali Tipitaka (Samyutta Nikaya 35.152), the Buddha said,
"Then, monks, this is the criterion whereby a monk, apart from faith, apart from persuasion, apart from inclination, apart from rational speculation, apart from delight in views and theories, could affirm the attainment of enlightenment: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been accomplished, what was to be done is done, there is no further living in this world.'"
Enlightenment and Bodhi (Mahayana)
In Mahayana Buddhism, bodhi is associated with the perfection of wisdom, or sunyata. This is the teaching that all phenomena are empty of self-essence.
Why is this important? Most of us perceive the things and beings around us as distinctive and permanent. But this view is a projection. Instead, the phenomenal world is an ever-changing nexus of causes and conditions (see also Dependent Origination). Things and beings, empty of self-essence, are neither real nor not real (see also "The Two Truths"). Thoroughly perceiving sunyata dissolves the fetters of self-clinging that cause our unhappiness.
In Mahayana Buddhism, the ideal of practice is the bodhisattva, the enlightened being who remains in the phenomenal world to bring all beings to enlightenment. The bodhisattva ideal is more than altruism; it reflects the reality that none of us are separate. "Individual enlightenment" is an oxymoron.
Although D.T. Suzuki and some of the first Zen teachers in the West explained enlightenment as an experience, most Zen teachers and Zen texts will tell you that enlightenment is not an experience. Not even satori is enlightenment itself.
Enlightenment and Buddha Nature
According to Zen legend, when the Buddha realized enlightenment he said, "Isn't it remarkable! All beings are already enlightened!" This "already enlightened" state is Buddha Nature. In Mahayana Buddhism, Buddha Nature is the inherent Buddhahood of all beings. Because all beings are already Buddha, the task is not to attain enlightenment but to reveal it.
The Chinese master Huineng (638-713), the Sixth Patriarch of Ch'an (Zen), compared Buddhahood to a moon obscured by clouds. The clouds represent ignorance and defilements. When these are dropped away the moon, already present, is revealed.
Nothing Special
What happened to the sudden, blissful, transformative experience? Such an experience is not, by itself, enlightenment. Such an experience may -- or may not -- accompany a deep insight. But a blissful spiritual experience not grounded in practice of the Eightfold Path will not likely be transformative.
Further, this practice is for a lifetime. It is not something you can cross off your "to do" list when the goal is reached. Zen teacher Barry Magid said of Master Hakuin,
"Post-satori practice for Hakuin meant finally ceasing to be preoccupied with his own personal condition and attainment and to devote himself and his practice to helping and teaching others. Finally, at long last, he realized that true enlightenment is a matter of endless practice and compassionate functioning, not something that occurs once and for all in one great moment on the cushion." [From Nothing Is Hidden (Wisdom, 2013).]
In some traditions you might hear that an enlightened being gains omniscience and supernatural powers. Other traditions teach that while the "enlightened being" may have remarkable attributes, this being neither is nor is not the conditional being who eats and shaves and wears socks.
Shunryu Suzuki (1904-1971) said of enlightenment,
"It is kind of mystery that for people who have no experience of enlightenment, enlightenment is something wonderful. But if they attain it, it is nothing. But yet it is not nothing. Do you understand? For a mother with children, having children is nothing special. That is zazen. So, if you continue this practice, more and more you will acquire something - nothing special, but nevertheless something. You may say "universal nature" or "Buddha nature" or "enlightenment." You may call is by many names, but for the person who has it, it is nothing, and it is something."
But how do you know when you "have" it? Enlightenment is not a quality that can be possessed. And individuals are notoriously bad judges of their own degree of awakening. The only way to test one's insight is to present it to a dharma teacher. And don't be dismayed if what you think you've "gotten" falls apart under the teacher's scrutiny. When the insight is genuine, it won't fall apart.

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Thu, 29 Sep 2016.

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Wed, 28 Sep 2016 #22
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

...And, further, what did Krishnamurti say about 'enlightenment' ? There's quite a lot, really, to read for oneself and I won't attempt to select, paraphrase or interpret anything...it is better to read K directly with respect to this topic, isn't it?

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Thu, 29 Sep 2016.

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Wed, 28 Sep 2016 #23
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
" (quote) ... Most of us perceive the things and beings around us as distinctive and permanent. But this view is a projection."

Yes, and this is the result of an erroneous separate and fixed identity created by thought ... it is indeed a mind-created projection ... a division, a duality ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 28 Sep 2016 #24
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
(quoting Suzuki) ... "The only way to test one's insight is to present it to a dharma teacher."

A truly enlightened person won't have the need to test it with an outer authority ... the very need to 'confirm' enlightenment proves that there is no enlightenment ... that's a trap ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Wed, 28 Sep 2016.

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Thu, 29 Sep 2016 #25
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
it is about listening to someone who knows ...

You mean some kind of 'authority' ?

??

Didn't K say "be a light to yourself" ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 29 Sep 2016 #26
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
A truly enlightened person won't have the need to test it with an outer authority ... the very need to 'confirm' enlightenment proves that there is no enlightenment ... that's a trap ...

It would appear though, Jean, that there are elements which indicate that one is enlightened (in the Buddhist sense or 'self-realisation' in Hinduism) or otherwise not such.
Can there be an individual or personal interpretation of what being 'enlightened' actually means ?

Jean Gatti wrote:
Didn't K say "be a light to yourself" ?

As did the Buddha before K.

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Thu, 29 Sep 2016.

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Thu, 29 Sep 2016 #27
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
It would appear though, Jean, that there are elements which indicate that one is enlightened (in the Buddhist sense) or otherwise not such.

Didn't Buddha say that all beings are already enlightened ?

According to Zen legend, when the Buddha realized enlightenment he said, "Isn't it remarkable! All beings are already enlightened!" This "already enlightened" state is Buddha Nature.

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 29 Sep 2016 #28
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
The problem there is that our interlocutor may themselves have a misunderstanding of their own degree of awakening, so one may be given a false impression. So it is not about a 'test' - which is silly - it is about listening to someone who knows what they are talking about and accepting what they have to say.

True enough...not so wise, perhaps, to lend 'spiritual authority' to another in life, is it, Jamie? However, if there are specific elements/attributes in/of 'enlightenment' belonging essentially to Buddhism and/or Hinduism which calls this 'self-realisation' in the main it would appear that within that framework/construct, 'vision'/view a person is either 'enlightened' or is not.

(Disclaimer: This writer, Katy, is not a theologian!)

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Thu, 29 Sep 2016.

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Thu, 29 Sep 2016 #29
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Didn't Buddha say that all beings are already enlightened ?

This is what you've just interpreted/gathered from Barbara O'Reilly's writing about 'enlightenment' which I copied above (#22), isn't it, Jean? However, if you read it again you will see that it is/was not quite as simple as you are suggesting.

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Thu, 29 Sep 2016.

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Thu, 29 Sep 2016 #30
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
I didn't use the word 'authority'. That was Jean's interpretation of what was said. I used the word 'listen' and if you're going to listen, then it makes sense to listen to someone who knows what they are talking about. Like K.

Okay Jamie...and, yes, you're quite right. I don't see any point either in conversing/inquiring together here, there and everywhere if we do not listen to each other. Only listening to K - free from context - is unhelpful for this writer/reader, too.

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Thu, 29 Sep 2016.

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