Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Are we starting from the wrong end?


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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #1
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

There's been an awful lot of ideas, suppositions, theories, about what life's like without the self, without thought, time, knowledge, etc, etc... Are we starting from the wrong end?

It is enjoyable and perhaps in some ways important to consider these things, but why are there so few discussions on the 'facts of life'? Why not look at where we are and not always what, basically, 'should be'? The facts are pain in various ways, ambition, desire, fear, thought- the self-and so on- why don't we ever go into these, which are common to all of us, while theories aren't?

If you look at something real, it unfolds.

mike

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #2
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

BTW, I'm not sure if everyone's aware of this site:

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/index.php

It's a good resource.

mike

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #3
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

All of our problems are psychological -- the "pain in various ways," the desires, the fears, all of the long string of personal sorrows and vexations -- every one of them are psychological. The physical body feels, it senses and it hurts, but it does not have "problems."

The psychological is a construction by the brain through the brain's process of thinking. It is a fantasy world of idea and concept with an imaginary self at the center. Problems come to an end when there is full awareness of this.

max

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #4
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Problems come to an end when there is full awareness of this.

Really? And do you think there are never conflicts, disagreement between the people?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #5
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
It is enjoyable and perhaps in some ways important to consider these things, but why are there so few discussions on the 'facts of life'?

Because man seeks an escape from all these things, the sooner, the better, he wants freedom, from suffering, from pain, from wars, from conflicts, from all the struggles. He does not want to look at all that for himself, not by listening someone or reading some book, but completely by himself. Man is seeking for a refuge, and what K says can be perfectly a refuge. Why is man is seeking for refuge? Because there is fear. And until that fear is not faced, understood, man will simply live in one or another idea, the idea itself doesn't matter as long as it gives a sense of consolation.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #6
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
And do you think there are never conflicts, disagreement between the people?

There may be disagreements, but there will be no conflict.

max

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #7
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
There may be disagreements, but there will be no conflict.

May be and may be not. Looking at the world one can say that all the conflicts between people starts by disagreements. And of course disagreement is not outside, it's inside, it's a disagreement between ideas, world-views.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #8
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
Problems come to an end when there is full awareness

How is it going for you?

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #9
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
All of our problems are psychological

This is pretty much a given, Max.

mike

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #10
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
what K says can be perfectly a refuge.

Perhaps for you. Perhaps for others, a teacher.

Voco . wrote:
Why is man is seeking for refuge? Because there is fear. And until that fear is not faced, understood, man will simply live in one or another idea,

Tell me then- how do I face fear? Have you done it?

Or, perhaps fear could be something to be considered, discussed, and not just brushed off as if it hasn't been a problem for man since the beginning of his existence?

mike

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #11
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
Beautiful statement, but easier said than done ...

There can be disagreement, but with awareness the disagreement will not slide into conflict. Awareness is understanding, and understanding is choiceless action. When there is no choice, there is no conflict, no matter what the circumstances may be. What is there to fight against, when there is no choice?

Welcome to the forums, Juan.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Mon, 14 Mar 2016.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #12
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Tell me then- how do I face fear? Have you done it?

By not escaping from it. If you stay with the fear and give all your attention to it, you will learn what it is.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #13
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
There can be disagreement, but with awareness the disagreement will not slide into conflict. Awareness is understanding, and understanding is choiceless action. When there is no choice, there is no conflict, no matter what the circumstances may be. What is there to fight against, when there is no choice?

You forget about the other people Max, not everyone is like you. You cannot come to people who strongly disagrees with you and say "With awareness the disagreement will not slide into conflict". You might be not a in conflict yourself, but the other people will be in a conflict with you. Your holistic viewing has it's weak sides and this is one of them, is that you expect everyone to be the same.

And then, disagreements are not just disagreements like on these forums, there might be disagreements in all spheres of life.

This post was last updated by Voco . Mon, 14 Mar 2016.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #14
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Voco . wrote:
not everyone is like you

You just said that to Brian, on 'Hmm.'

If it's true for both of them and if by extension it's true for everyone, then they are all alike in that.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #15
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Voco . wrote:
If you stay with the fear and give all your attention to it, you will learn what it is.

Right. It's fear, isn't it! I'm pretty sure about that.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #16
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
First of all hello to you all as i'm new here

Meaning, "I'm back again with a new name."

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #17
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
And still for others merely a friend with whom to talk from time to time for a while ...

Do you practice spiritualism?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #18
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
how awareness and disagreement can both coexist at the same time?

Well, here's an example . . .

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
I like your deep awareness about something of which you're completely wrong

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #19
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
I'm very sorry Voco, but i don't know what you mean by spiritualism :-?

He means spiritual tramps.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #20
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
. . . ask yourself deeply how awareness and disagreement can both coexist at the same time?

You are right. They cannot. Here's an example of what I was getting at:

Someone says to you, "Smoking is a healthy habit." You are aware that it is not. You can say, "No, it isn't" and so it might be said that you are disagreeing with him. But in fact you are not disagreeing or arguing with him. You are simply stating a fact, out of your awareness of the truth.

Disagreement and conflict begin when thinking replaces awareness.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Tue, 15 Mar 2016.

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #21
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
Thanks for your patience anyway and continue enjoying your mind games!

They are preferable to yours.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #22
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
So, maybe the question should be 'how i face myself?' .

Here also Dvaita.( duality )

I becomes an entity that is looking at self( another), therefore an impossibilty to be what i am.

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #23
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
I'm very sorry Voco, but i don't know what you mean by spiritualism :-?

K is no longer alive, to whom you can talk from time to time? To his spirit?

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
I think language is important, and most probably you're trying to express another thing ... But strictly following your words i would like to ask: can fear be learn?

You can't learn fear until you know yourself. Fear is not some separate part, or zone within you, but it is you. But what actually do we mean by fear?

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #24
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
In fact you're not talking to any person but to yourself ... but such kind of dialogs can bring you a really deep insight into your own wisdom if you're able to listen carefully.

Translation: If you pick out the things that please you, you can be dazzled by your own thought processes.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #25
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
Fortunately for us there's always some interpreter of the truth to help us to understand, poor ignorant people as we are incapable of understanding it by ourselves.

I make no claim to interpret truth. I just point to idiocy.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #26
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
Then tell me, if i'm fear what need then to learn about it? ...

Learn the way you are living, acting, the way you are thinking.

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
Interesting question ...
Could we start by saying that fear is deeply rooted in our urge for physical survival since we were animals?

Yes, that fear is the most basic one and it still with us and I don't think there anything bad about it at all, but there is other kind of fear too, which is purely psychological, our own invention, it is of thought and expectation, or it might be also psychological fear which is influenced by the physical fear.

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #27
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
Have you ever talked inwardly with someone who's not in front of you, Voco?

No.

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
In fact you're not talking to any person but to yourself ...

That's a dialogue with an imaginary person then. The same way someone is talking to God.

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #28
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
What is meditation and why human being felt the need to meditate?

Are you equating meditation with talking to imaginary voices inside your head?

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #29
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
why human being felt the need to meditate?

Do you feel that need? I don't. But . . . whatever jilts your kilt.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

This post was last updated by Pavil Davidov (account deleted) Tue, 15 Mar 2016.

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #30
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Juan Eyegaray wrote:
Thanks a lot Krishnapavil!

Save your irony for the irony board.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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