Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The brain has nothing to do with the mind?


Displaying posts 31 - 60 of 157 in total
Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #31
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Then there is a PET scans of the brain for example, which may detect the activity of the brain while there is thinking.

Yes, when the tv-set is 'ON' you can also measure its functioning, it does not mean that the images come from inside the tv-set ... images come from an outer source ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #32
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Yes, this is what I expected ... hence your misunderstanding of K's statement in the initial post ...

Why misunderstanding? Do you accept what K says as truth without any proof whatsoever?

Jean Gatti wrote:
When the tv-set is damaged you can't see the image on the screen any more ... it does not prove that the image displayed comes from the tv-set ...

I'm not saying that what is perceived originates in the brain either. You have misunderstood me.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #33
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Why misunderstanding?

Well that's what you said in your initial post, no ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #34
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Do you accept what K says as truth without any proof whatsoever?

No.

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #35
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

How many 'minds' do you think there are ?

As many as there are people.

Let's come back to your answer.

Why do you believe there is one mind for each person ? Do you have any proof for this ? Did you ever go in another person's mind to check ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #36
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Well that's what you said in your initial post, no ?

I'm questioning.

Jean Gatti wrote:
Yes, when the tv-set is 'ON' you can also measure its functioning, it does not mean that the images come from inside the tv-set ... images come from an outer source ...

What is perceived is outside the brain, but perception is of the brain. That does not means however that perception is also outside.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #37
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Why do you believe there is one mind for each person ? Do you have any proof for this ? Did you ever go in another person's mind to check ?

I have answered in post #27. And I don't believe, it is rather a fact. For me there is no mind at all, first of all, either you call mind or Mind, it's a concept. I'm simply using the same language to find out whether what you are saying is a fact or total quackery.

This post was last updated by Voco . Mon, 14 Mar 2016.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #38
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
For me there is no mind at all, first of all, either you call mind or Mind, it's a concept.

ok what is it then that perceives thought ? or maybe you are saying that thought is also a concept ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #39
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Did you ever go in another person's mind to check ?

This question is inadequate. I don't have to go in another person's mind, I'm supposed to have my own. How do I know that there is differences between the "minds" ? Well, exactly because people are not the same. If there would be no difference, we would be all the same with identical thoughts.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #40
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
ok what is it then that perceives thought ? or maybe you are saying that thought is also a concept ?

It is an awareness of the brain, this is rather obvious.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #41
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
It is an awareness of the brain, this is rather obvious.

Ok, so back to my previous question about mind, how many 'awarenesses' do you think there are ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #42
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
I don't have to go in another person's mind, I'm supposed to have my own.

Yes, but the truth is that you did never experience another mind than 'yours' ... so how can you know that other minds exist ? It is at best an assumption ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #43
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Ok, so back to my previous question about mind, how many 'awarenesses' do you think there are ?

As many as there are people, I'm replying to you again. And actually that sounds more reasonable than saying "awareness is one, universal". In any way, whether you think awareness is one or not doesn't really makes any difference, it doesn't makes you "enlightened" or somehow superior than others.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #44
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
If there would be no difference, we would be all the same with identical thoughts.

Well the screen of the cinema theatre is always the same, just the movies projected on it change ... and finally what you see is always the same screen, just 'coloured' with different lights in motion (ie. the movie) ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #45
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Yes, but the truth is that you did never experience another mind than 'yours' ... so how can you know that other minds exist ? It is at best an assumption ...

Well, that would be too childish assumption. First of you all, you are able to think too, aren't you? Your statement is absurd, because I may tell to you "Well, how do you know that other people around you exist, have you ever been in their bodies?".

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #46
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Well the screen of the cinema theatre is always the same, just the movies projected on it change ... and finally what you see is always the same screen, just 'coloured' with different lights in motion (ie. the movie) ...

And what do you mean by all that?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #47
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

Ok, so back to my previous question about mind, how many 'awarenesses' do you think there are ?

As many as there are people, I'm replying to you again.

Ok but now at least you admit that awareness is not a concept, but a reality ...

And actually that sounds more reasonable than saying "awareness is one, universal".

Who says it is reasonable ? ... thought of course ... WHY is it reasonable ? When your very experience demonstrates that you have never experienced another awareness than 'yours' ?

In any way, whether you think awareness is one or not doesn't really makes any difference, it doesn't makes you "enlightened" or somehow superior than others.

For feeling 'superior' there must be an 'other' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #48
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

Well the screen of the cinema theatre is always the same, just the movies projected on it change ... and finally what you see is always the same screen, just 'coloured' with different lights in motion (ie. the movie) ...

And what do you mean by all that?

It means that reality is unique and without form but can manifest as many different forms ... the screen has no form but there are many different movies ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #49
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Your statement is absurd, because I may tell to you "Well, how do you know that other people around you exist, have you ever been in their bodies?".

No because people (as bodies) you can see and 'measure', it is an observable fact ... while mind you cannot observe (well you can observe brain activity, which does not prove there is a mind there ie. awareness)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #50
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Who says it is reasonable ? ... thought of course ... WHY is it reasonable ? When your very experience demonstrates that you have never experienced another awareness than 'yours' ?

Not thought, but intuition. Thought however has to be in one with the intuition. Now you give to me at least one or few arguments why consciousness is one and it is more than just a capacity of a living organism?

Jean Gatti wrote:
No because people (as bodies) you can see and 'measure', it is an observable fact ... while mind you cannot observe (well you can observe brain activity, which does not prove there is a mind there ie. awareness)

How can you talk about something which is not observable fact, then it is simply a product of imagination. And if the "mind" can't be proved that it's "in there", how it can be proved it is "out there"?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #51
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
And if the "mind" can't be proved that it's "in there", how it can be proved it is "out there"?

No Voco, I said the mind/awareness cannot be measured (because it is not something 'material') ... it does not mean that it cannot be experienced as inner reality ... would you negate your own awareness ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #52
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Not thought, but intuition.

No, what you call 'intuition' results from your erroneous identity as the body ... this is the fundamental 'mis-take' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #53
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
I said the mind/awareness cannot be measured (because it is not something 'material')

I disagree. Awareness can be measured in many ways.One example is that scientists flash cards and measure recognition time from neuronal firings. They can also measure the degree of awareness by the spread and intensity of those firings.

The fact is that you only know you have something you call awareness by your reactions to stimuli. It is an effect and effects can be measured. If you tell me awareness is something more than that I say you are making it up in the curious attempt to give yourself comfort. There is no evidence for awareness outside of the field of reaction, period.

You say it is non-material but the same could be said for gravity. It is however also measured by its effects. But you can't measure it with a micrometer or a barometer or a set of kitchen scales (well, you can, in a way, with the latter). To measure mind in any broad sense you would have to have the appropriate tool, which so far does not exist. This does not preclude it could be brought into existence anymore than the absence of telescopes would imply the stars and planets are non-material or beyond measure.

Science progresses and things come into clearer focus. But some are not content with that. They are impatient to jump to any conclusion that gives them comfort. If they can't find a material link they presume God.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #54
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Pavil Davidov wrote:
I disagree. Awareness can be measured in many ways.One example is that scientists flash cards and measure recognition time from neuronal firings. They can also measure the degree of awareness by the spread and intensity of those firings.

You could also measure the response time of a computer which does not prove the computer is aware ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #55
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
No Voco, I said the mind/awareness cannot be measured (because it is not something 'material') ... it does not mean that it cannot be experienced as inner reality ... would you negate your own awareness ?

First you have to prove that awareness is not material by itself. How you are going to do this?

Jean Gatti wrote:
You could also measure the response time of a computer which does not prove the computer is aware ...

Why somebody even try to prove that computer is aware the same way as man is?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #56
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
First you have to prove that awareness is not material by itself. How you are going to do this?

How do you prove that the oasis you see in the desert is a mirage ?

You just go there and you find nothing ... then for sure it was a mirage ...

Same for awareness, no one ever found any material evidence for awareness. Nonetheless, awareness is an obvious fact which needs no demonstration.

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #57
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Same for awareness, no one ever found any material evidence for awareness.

How about the brain, for example? There is no any proof that awareness is more than a sensation of a living being.

Jean Gatti wrote:
How do you prove that the oasis you see in the desert is a mirage ?

You just go there and you find nothing ... then for sure it was a mirage ...

But awareness is not an oasis in a desert, Jean. You don't have to go anywhere to make sure you are aware, because you are awareness. Or you will say again that it is erroneous identification?

This post was last updated by Voco . Mon, 14 Mar 2016.

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #58
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
But awareness is not an oasis in a desert, Jean. You don't have to go anywhere to make sure you are aware, because you are awareness.

Exactly, awareness needs no proof at all, we/you/me ARE awareness ... the very SAME awareness ...

Or you will say again that it is erroneous identification?

No, the erroneous identification is when you say that you are a physical entity, a body ... as awareness is NOT physical there can be no identification with awareness ...

Identification is a thought process, but you don't need thought to BE awareness ... because awareness is primary to thought ... in other words awareness does not need thought to BE ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Tue, 15 Mar 2016.

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #59
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Jean,

It is true that there is no entity who is aware, but when we speak of "you," isn't this "you" the physical body? The human being is a physical body together with awareness. The mechanically-functioning body component is an entity. The awareness component is life itself.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Tue, 15 Mar 2016.

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Tue, 15 Mar 2016 #60
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
It is true that there is no entity who is aware, but when we speak of "you," isn't this "you" the physical body?

Max, when I say 'you' in this forum, I am not speaking to your physical body ... I am addressing a 'set of ideas and thoughts' expressed under the name 'max' ... I don't even know what your physical body looks like Max :-)

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