Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The brain has nothing to do with the mind?


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Sun, 13 Mar 2016 #1
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

I've been reading this dialogue between DB and JK :

DB: What is the nature of the mind? Is the mind located inside the body, or is it in the brain?

JK: No, it is nothing to do with the body or the brain.


I don't follow this at all. What is meant by the mind, and why it has nothing to do with the body and the brain? Is there any mind without the brain? That is, isn't the mind is a function of the brain?

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Sun, 13 Mar 2016 #2
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, there is a lot of confusion over this. What is the mind? Probably one could say that "mind" is the whole organism.

But why use the term at all? The brain is the center of memory and control, the source of thinking and the self.

max

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Sun, 13 Mar 2016 #3
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
What is the mind? Probably one could say that "mind" is the whole organism.

Well to my view the mind is the abstract concept as consciousness. We cannot say that the mind or consciousness exists as a substance. What is there is awareness of the whole organism. The brain is capable of memorizing, recalling, thinking, but there is no mind or consciousness, these are concepts born out of incorrect interpretations.

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Sun, 13 Mar 2016 #4
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Voco . wrote:
We cannot say that the mind or consciousness exists as a substance. What is there is awareness of the whole organism.

Semi-correct. Mind is not a substance, true. It is a name given to an activity and that activity may rightly be called the activity associated with awareness. As a concept, mind is elusive, precisely because in the bio-organism there is no Chinese wall between soma and sentience. They are two aspects of the same movement, life. 'Mind,' if it may be called that, reaches down from conscious contemplation to such basic areas as enervation. To get an insight into what may be involved, 'A Leg To Stand On' by the late Oliver Sacks, is a marvelous read.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Sun, 13 Mar 2016 #5
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Pavil Davidov wrote:
It is a name given to an activity and that activity may rightly be called the activity associated with awareness.

Yes, so perhaps the first concept of the mind occurred because it was understood as a substance which is inside the brain, but then it was thought if it inside, then how it got there, must be from outside.

This post was last updated by Voco . Sun, 13 Mar 2016.

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Sun, 13 Mar 2016 #6
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

"Mind" must be either physical or something else. Is that "something else" psychological, or what is it?

max

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Sun, 13 Mar 2016 #7
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Voco . wrote:
Yes, so perhaps the first concept of the mind occurred because it was understood as a substance which is inside the brain, but then it was thought if it inside, then how it got there, must be from outside.

Well, some scientists once thought that the brain secretes thought like the spleen secretes bile. Terrible!

The brain evolved from the nervous system, as it became centralised. It is the factor of co-ordination. But it has diversified and created its own, augmentary functions, which have become very central to the functioning of the whole.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Sun, 13 Mar 2016 #8
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
JK: No, it is nothing to do with the body or the brain.

I don't follow this at all. What is meant by the mind, and why it has nothing to do with the body and the brain? Is there any mind without the brain? That is, isn't the mind is a function of the brain?

Excellent quote, thanks. K very rarely spoke of this.

Clearly the mind is not a function of the brain. But this cannot be understood as long as you identify with your body and believe you are a physical organism.

Mind is the formless space in which all forms/bodies manifest.

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sun, 13 Mar 2016.

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Sun, 13 Mar 2016 #9
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
"Mind" must be either physical or something else. Is that "something else" psychological, or what is it?

Well, Charles Richet called it ectoplasm while Carl Popper had it down as toothpaste. Seriously!

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Sun, 13 Mar 2016 #10
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
Clearly the mind is not a function of the brain. But this cannot be understood as long as you identify with your body and believe you are a physical organism.

repetition

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Sun, 13 Mar 2016 #11
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Mind- capital 'M'- is everything, isn't it? Ourselves, the cosmos, meditation- the whole. This "consciousness" cannot be touched while the individual consciousness- thought- is working, as it does, all day, every day. Perhaps?

I think the ordinary sense of the word "mind" is just the human consciousness: thought, feeling, body, senses, etc. Cogitation, imagination...

mike

This post was last updated by m christani Sun, 13 Mar 2016.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #12
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Mind- capital 'M'- is everything, isn't it? Ourselves, the cosmos, meditation- the whole.

How is that a fact and not silly imagination? If there would be anything like Mind, you would immediately have access to all people's minds.

This post was last updated by Voco . Mon, 14 Mar 2016.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #13
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
If there would be anything like Mind, you would immediately have access to all people's minds.

How is this a fact and not silly imagination? Your 'mind' is in you, your neurons, nerves- a physical thing. How can I access that?

mike

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #14
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
If there would be anything like Mind, you would immediately have access to all people's minds.

How is this a fact and not silly imagination? Your 'mind' is in you, your neurons, nerves- a physical thing. How can I access that?

mike

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #15
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
How is this a fact and not silly imagination? Your 'mind' is in you, your neurons, nerves- a physical thing. How can I access that?

You wrote yourself:

m christani wrote:
Mind- capital 'M'- is everything, isn't it? Ourselves, the cosmos, meditation- the whole.

So that implies that you and the whole cosmos is one, right?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #16
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
So that implies that you and the whole cosmos is one, right?

I think K made it clear that as long as 'you'- your separate consciousness- is active, you cannot be in contact with that Mind, 'the otherness', whatever one would call it.

mike

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #17
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
If there would be anything like Mind, you would immediately have access to all people's minds.

How many 'minds' do you think there are ?

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #18
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
How many 'minds' do you think there are ?

Are there as many 'minds' as there are brains? Is there a difference between the mind which is of the body- the usual meaning- and 'Mind'?

mike

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #19
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Is there a difference between the mind which is of the body- the usual meaning- and 'Mind'?

Why do you think that 'mind' is of the body ? Nothing proves that ?

DB: What is the nature of the mind? Is the mind located inside the body, or is it in the brain?

JK: No, it is nothing to do with the body or the brain.

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Mon, 14 Mar 2016.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #20
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Why do you think that 'mind' is of the body ? Nothing proves that ?

DB: What is the nature of the mind? Is the mind located inside the body, or is it in the brain?

JK: No, it is nothing to do with the body or the brain.

Yes, that's the 'Mind', the universal mind. The particular, the ordinary mind, is what we call the whole set-up of feelings, nerves, thoughts, body, brain. There are two ways to consider it- the universal and the particular. I would say the universal cannot be until the particular-consciousness (thought etc)- ends.

mike

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #21
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

K: Let's begin again: there is the ending of the `me' as time, and so there is no hope; all that is finished, ended. In the ending of it, there is that sense of nothingness. And nothingness is this whole universe. DB: Yes, the universal mind, the universal matter.

K: The whole universe.

DB: What led you to say that?

K: Ah. I know. To put it very simply: division has come to an end. Right? The division created by time, created by thought, created by this education, and so on - all that. Because it has ended, the other is obvious.

DB: You mean that without the division then the other is there - to be perceived?

K: Not to be perceived, but it is there.

-The Ending of Time, ch.2

mike

This post was last updated by m christani Mon, 14 Mar 2016.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #22
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Yes, that's the 'Mind', the universal mind. The particular, the ordinary mind, is what we call the whole set-up of feelings, nerves, thoughts, body, brain.

Not sure K ever made this distinction between the universal mind and the particular mind ... in the quote post 19 he speaks of 'mind', without saying 'universal' ...

Bohm spoke of 'universal mind' but not sure he understood what K means ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Mon, 14 Mar 2016.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #23
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Jean, #19 sounds familiar but can you give any more context, more surrounding that quote? It's hard to get anything from it.

mike

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #24
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
I think K made it clear that as long as 'you'- your separate consciousness- is active, you cannot be in contact with that Mind, 'the otherness', whatever one would call it.

It sounds beautiful, but that's it. If one says that consciousness, the Mind is one, then why there is separateness at all? What constitutes this separateness? If you say it is the self, and then you tell that the self is an illusion, then the very separateness is an illusion and so in the end you still are saying that consciousness is actually one, but it has this illusory division within itself, but if that division is illusory why then the entire concept of one consciousness is not illusory?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #25
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Jean, #19 sounds familiar but can you give any more context, more surrounding that quote? It's hard to get anything from it.

Sure Mike, here's the complete talk, it was offered by Voco in the initial post of this discussion ... that's probably why it sounds 'familiar' to you :-)

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teach...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #26
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
How is this a fact and not silly imagination? Your 'mind' is in you, your neurons, nerves- a physical thing. How can I access that?

To start with, there are many people ( one is in my area ) , if you visit them with any question, they will tell you what you been thinking about.

ps. There is also a specialised course ( no jokes) to learn how to do that and is available against a fee.

This post was last updated by Ravi Seth Mon, 14 Mar 2016.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #27
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
How many 'minds' do you think there are ?

As many as there are people.

Jean Gatti wrote:
Why do you think that 'mind' is of the body ? Nothing proves that ?

At least we can say that the mind cannot function when the brain is damaged. Then there is a PET scans of the brain for example, which may detect the activity of the brain while there is thinking. Then certain thoughts may cause certain feelings in the body. And lastly we may move our body by thinking. And then there is a feeling that it is you who thinks, not that the thought is coming from outside somewhere.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #28
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Ravi Seth wrote:
To start with, there are many people ( one is in my area ) , if you visit them with any question, they will tell you what you been thinking about.

Really? Well it's rather easy. If you ask me "How are you?" I can tell you that you have been thinking about how I am.

This post was last updated by Voco . Mon, 14 Mar 2016.

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #29
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

How many 'minds' do you think there are ?

As many as there are people.

Yes, this is what I expected ... hence your misunderstanding of K's statement in the initial post ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 14 Mar 2016 #30
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
At least we can say that the mind cannot function when the brain is damaged.

When the tv-set is damaged you can't see the image on the screen any more ... it does not prove that the image displayed comes from the tv-set ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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