Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #1
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Hello every body

The following post by Patricia taken from another forum from the thread ' Reply to Patricia ' sounded like an immaculate one in the spirit and essence of Quintessential K , visa - v my understanding of the K teaching so far ... In the sense of figuring out about the real and true content of the deep rooted sensitivity , compassion, austerity , and sacred quality of the man K and the teaching that emanated from him .

Well it had been my experience that unless one feels deeply and strongly for the man K and have this strong sense of connectivity with the teaching .. It's not possible to arrive at the state of mind which she portrayed in her response in the below post .
( I hope Patricia will not have any objection in my high jacking her post and presenting in this forum . Well I don't want to go into the hassles of joining the new forum and hence I have to do like this )

The post:

Mike - can it be so even if K did not say it?

Can it be seen - in action here today - that the ground for inquiry that K laid down has not been understood?

And technically - what is that ground? Is it just the words? Is it more than that?

Does it include what one eats? Can there be the sensitivity to inquire deeply into what K pointed out if one feels nothing for the fellow sentient beings slaughtered so one can eat what one desires?

One may make a doctrine of 'love' and 'compassion'. Is one in actuality living lovingly and compassionately?

Does it include livelihood? Is one profiting in any way from the misery of others - from the destruction of the planet?

Does it include an austerity in the way one lives - and in the way one thinks?

Does it include understanding that the word is not the thing? That the words K used are no more than communication? They are not doctrine.

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #2
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1913 posts in this forum Offline

Thank you Pavani for sharing this.

K taught by example, which is why he shared not only his words, but the manner in which he lived.

It could also be asked: (it occurred to me later)

Does it include taking great care to maintain the body healthily with regular exercise and pure nourishment, and to keep the brain clear by avoiding all pollutants such as alcohol, chemicals and drugs.

(What you have quoted was written on the other forum when a statement "that the ground for inquiry which K laid down during his lifetime had not been understood" was challenged.)

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Wed, 24 Feb 2016.

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #3
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

pavani rao wrote:
Well it had been my experience that unless one feels deeply and strongly for the man K and have this strong sense of connectivity with the teaching .. It's not possible to arrive at the state of mind which she portrayed in her response in the below post .

What state of the mind? What is the mind? Is there mind first of all?

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #4
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
What state of the mind? What is the mind? Is there mind first of all?

You may not be having any mind but the lady does.

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #5
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Ravi Seth wrote:
You may not be having any mind but the lady does.

Because of people like you who consistently trying to grind all this knowledge to people's heads.

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #6
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
K taught by example, which is why he shared not only his words, but the manner in which he lived.

Did he? Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what you mean by "taught by example". But if you mean he said do what I do, follow me essentially, then I vehemently disagree.

K did not hold himself up as an example. It is crucial that each person realizes that he must discover for himself. Yes, K took "living" apart like one would take apart a old pocket watch and by doing so showed us how things work. It's for us to see our lives for ourselves; how conditioning works, how thought works and so on. To exam our lives in detail. I don't think that you would disagree with this Patricia.

I'm just trying to understand what you mean by example. If K is thought of as an example then that is the beginning of the religion of Krishnamurti which would be an abomination. The final insult. Something I think some of the K Foundations may be setting the stage for now.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 24 Feb 2016.

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #7
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Thank you Pavani rao for your perceptive and insightful post and for bringing this subject to this forum.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 24 Feb 2016.

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #8
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

It is very interesting to see that some individuals here claim to know K better than he himself did. They are basically projecting what they think and posit it as truth. They are painting an image of K. They think that K is in need of their defense, in their interpretation of him. It is exactly these people who build up a wall and are most destructive. I find it unacceptable.

This post was last updated by Voco . Wed, 24 Feb 2016.

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #9
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
I find it unacceptable.

The thing that should be unacceptable to you is your profound and repeated lack of understanding of what others on this forum are actually saying.

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #10
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1329 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
It is very interesting to see that some individuals here claim to know K better than he himself did.

To see this would imply you have understood K. Or is this just a question?

They are basically projecting what they think and posit it as truth. They are painting an image of K. They think that K is in need of their defense, in their interpretation of him.

Aren't you also projecting here something of others??

It is exactly these people who build up a wall and are most destructive.

if they do so, I agree, but it's to them to see this, otherwise they become your folowers.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #11
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1352 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
If K is thought of as an example then that is the beginning of the religion of Krishnamurti which would be an abomination.

Yes K was/is a 'signpost'. What he ate ,drank, how he dressed, had in part to do with a very unusual upbringing for a Brahmin boy and his own personal tastes...what he 'pointed at' is the only thing of importance, I think all the rest is secondary.

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #12
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
The thing that should be unacceptable to you is your profound and repeated lack of understanding of what others on this forum are actually saying.

Not so long ago you have promised not to reply to my posts, you forgot that? But as you have replied to mine, I will reply to yours. First of all, why do you think you can tell people what they should and shouldn't do, what they can and what they can't do? What is your problem? How did you determined my lack of understanding? Because I do not think like you? You really sound very ignorant.

Wim Opdam wrote:
To see this would imply you have understood K. Or is this just a question?

No, how can I know K? How can one know another? I'm questioning. But such people like Jack Pine come and they don't even question, they just grinding violently what they say to your head. Jack has already shown his childishness on this forum, first he can talk about love and then he goes on and insult people. What kind of hypocrite is that?

Wim Opdam wrote:
Aren't you also projecting here something of others??

Am I projecting? I'm saying what is seen.

Wim Opdam wrote:
if they do so, I agree, but it's to them to see this, otherwise they become your folowers.

Does that mean that such people like Jack should be allowed to do what they do?

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #13
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Does that mean that such people like Jack should be allowed to do what they do?

Well once again Voco why would you think this forum is different from the rest of the world ? ... Jack is just as most people, ready to use intimidation and violence to impose his own ideas and opinions and beliefs ... and that's it ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #14
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Well once again Voco why would you think this forum is different from the rest of the world ? ... Jack is just as most people, ready to use intimidation and violence to impose his own ideas and opinions and beliefs ... and that's it ...

Yes, though I would say that it is defense and through this defense comes imposing. It is one who lives in isolation and fear is constantly defending. And that fear is not even real, it comes from thought.

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #15
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Yes, though I would say that it is defense and through this defense comes imposing.

Yes of course, self is made of all kinds of such 'defenses', wanting to be right, wanting to be respected and respectable etc ... finally it is a lack of self confidence ... a need for other's approval and recognition ... once again an unability to walk alone ... to be a light to oneself ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #16
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Well once again Voco why would you think this forum is different from the rest of the world ?

Jean you just have an opinion on everything don't you? You see someone kicking someone else and you rush in to kick that person too. What is it like Jean to know everything? To never be wrong? What a swell guy you are Jean.

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #17
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
First of all, why do you think you can tell people what they should and shouldn't do, what they can and what they can't do? What is your problem?

Voco, ask yourself these questions. They apply to you as much as they do anyone else on this forum.

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #18
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1329 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Am I projecting? I'm saying what is seen.

How clear is your sight?? I don't know!
Mine is sometimes clear but mostly clouded!

Voco . wrote:
Does that mean that such people like Jack should be allowed to do what they do?

I would like the attitude from a lot of people be different, the world would be a better place.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #19
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Jack is just as most people, ready to use intimidation and violence to impose his own ideas and opinions and beliefs ... and that's it ...

But Jean don't you see that this is exactly what you do too? And Jean, why do you think that you are the most ignored and marginalized poster on this forum? Do you think it has something to do with your obsessive need to appear to be an authority on every subject that comes up on this forum?

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #20
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
How did you determined my lack of understanding?

Because often your frequent explosive rants don't fit the subject matter you are objecting to.

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #21
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Voco, ask yourself these questions. They apply to you as much as they do anyone else on this forum.

No, I have asked you and now I'm talking with you, but you are escaping. Anyway, you are a ranter, a coward, because it is only a coward who shows his mightiness as you do, you are a slave of your own imagination. This is the last time I reply to you as it is not possible to talk with you anyway, you are just thinking you are right and the rest of the world is wrong, pretty common fallacy.

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #22
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1913 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Yes K was/is a 'signpost'. What he ate ,drank, how he dressed, had in part to do with a very unusual upbringing for a Brahmin boy and his own personal tastes...what he 'pointed at' is the only thing of importance, I think all the rest is secondary.

Jack and Dan -

Perhaps K did not feel that he needed to express what is blindly obvious, in words.

But perhaps his final statement says it all and bears repeating here:

K: "Nobody, unless the body has been prepared, very carefully, protected and so on-nobody can understand what went through this body. Nobody. Don't anybody pretend. Nobody. I repeat this: nobody amongst us or the public, know what went on. I know they don't. And now after seventy years it has come to an end. Not that that intelligence and energy - it' s somewhat here, every day, and especially at night. And after seventy years the body can't stand it - can't stand any more. It can't. The Indians have a lot of damned superstitions about this - that you will and the body goes - and all that kind of nonsense. You won't find another body like this, or that supreme intelligence operating in a body for many hundred years. You won't see it again. When he goes, it goes. There is no consciousness left behind of that consciousness, of that state. They'll all pretend or try to imagine they can get into touch with that. Perhaps they will somewhat if they live the teachings. But nobody has done it. Nobody. And so that's that."

How far away from the essential teaching of Krishnamurti it has all moved now. It can be ignored, but it does not change the truth and the relevance of that teaching.

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Thu, 25 Feb 2016.

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #23
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1352 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia, I have read this statement many times over the years, it's very moving, enigmatic and sad. I'm not sure why you've posted it again...is it in relation to Jack's not wanting a 'religion' formed around K?

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #24
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1913 posts in this forum Offline

No Dan -

K speaks of preparing the body....... preparing the body is an action - not a concept.

And - challenging the statement that K taught by example does not make any sense.

Everyone, whether aware of it or not, teaches by example. And it is a pretty sure bet that K was aware of it!

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Wed, 24 Feb 2016.

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Thu, 25 Feb 2016 #25
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1352 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
- challenging the statement that K taught by example does not make any sense.

I remember an instance where some were trying to 'pin him down' regarding the 'necessity' of not eating meat...he dismissed it, as I remember, as not being that important. I thought, because some would seize on that as being 'essential'...

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 25 Feb 2016.

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Thu, 25 Feb 2016 #26
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia I know you are not stupid and I think you are seriously interested in K but to say, to think, that K in anyway was trying to lead anyone by example is tragically mistaken. I remember hearing him say so many times that if you follow him, if you rely on him "then god help you".

After all, examinations are for that purpose: to give you a position, to make you somebody. Titles, position and knowledge encourage you to be something. Have you not noticed that your parents and teachers tell you that you must amount to something in life, that you must be successful like your uncle or your grandfather? Or you try to imitate the example of some hero, to be like the Masters, the saints; so you are never free. Whether you follow the example of a Master, a saint, a teacher, a relative, or stick to a particular tradition, it all implies a demand on your part to be something; and it is only when you really understand this fact that there is freedom. This Matter of Culture, Chapter 2

What is the true function of an educator?

What is the true function of an educator? What is education? Why are we educated? Are we educated at all? Because you pass a few examinations, have a job, competing, struggling, brutalizing ambition, is that education? What is an educator? Is he one who prepares the student for a job, merely for a job, for technical achievement in order to earn a livelihood? That is all we know at present. There are vast schools, universities where you prepare the youth, boy or girl, to have a job, to have technical knowledge so that he or she can have a livelihood. Is that alone the function of a true educator? There must be something more than that, because it is too mechanical. So you say that the educator must be an example. You agree with that? You will have to follow the truth of the matter, to go into it. When you go into it you will see the truth of it, namely, no example is necessary.
J. Krishnamurti The Collected Works Volume VIII

Tradition implies authority, conformity, imitation, following.

... psychologically, inwardly, are we aware of our responses? Are we aware when we are not telling the truth, when we are indulging in double talk, when we are saying one thing and doing something else, when we are quoting others? You follow, this whole phenomenon of being secondhand, which is to be traditional, which is to conform - conform to an example. That gentleman yesterday said, "There is a perfect example". And why do we need an example? Is that not conformity, in that is there not imitation, fear, and authority and following? All that is traditional. We have had thousands of examples - right? And we want to be that. And in that there is the acceptance, non-verbally, essentially, of authority. Tradition implies authority, conformity, imitation, following.
Saanen 4th Public Dialogue 3rd August 1974

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 25 Feb 2016.

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Thu, 25 Feb 2016 #27
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1913 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I'm just trying to understand what you mean by example. If K is thought of as an example then that is the beginning of the religion of Krishnamurti which would be an abomination. The final insult. Something I think some of the K Foundations may be setting the stage for now.

Jack - it is very simple. K was the fact of what he pointed out. He was the actuality of living what he pointed out about the ending of psychological time.

A religion is indoctrination and following.

K avoided all those pitfalls, as nothing he said was theory - all he said arose from the actuality of the brain's insights.

Therefore he HAS no followers - rather just a bunch of people struggling and grappling with trying to live and interpret his WORDS (something he endlessly warned against) rather than realising that there is only one brain...which tells you what?

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Thu, 25 Feb 2016 #28
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1913 posts in this forum Offline

If K wasn't a true example of everything he spoke, then why would anyone bother to listen to what he said.

The word example in this context means: "actuality".

It becomes clear when listening if what is said arises from an actuality or from a theory.

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Thu, 25 Feb 2016 #29
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia, can you explain why you are saying what you are in the above post #27? What does it have to do with anything I have written? It's not clear to me. I'm saying emphatically that K most certainly did not lead by example. For one thing he didn't lead. K pointed out certain facts about life, living and it's solely up to us to either understand what he was pointing out or not.

Also, I want to say that that quote you have pulled out from K about no one got it. I think you have misunderstood what K was actually saying. You're not the only one.

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Thu, 25 Feb 2016 #30
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
The word example in this context means: "actuality".

No Patricia. Being an example does not mean "actuality". It means to be something that someone follows, imitates, copies, aspires to be.

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