Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

The essential


Displaying posts 121 - 150 of 156 in total
Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #121
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Voco, I'm curious-have you ever tried discussing, patiently going into something, deeper and deeper? You are in such a hurry to conclude a discussion, they never get off the ground. You just attack, attack, you never listen, and when you do, you respond with a superficial answer.

mike

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #122
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
post #114, but in general, many of them. Is it only to me seems so? Perhaps. But I really find it very superficial, distorting, and bogus.

That is alright with me, Voco. Your name be there in my posts in response to your post, but you are at liberty to ignore them. I am used to talking to myself. :)

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #123
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Voco, I'm curious-have you ever tried discussing, patiently going into something, deeper and deeper? You are in such a hurry to conclude a discussion, they never get off the ground. You just attack, attack, you never listen, and when you do, you respond with a superficial answer.

I'm not in a hurry. Just all your discussion has been discussed billions of times, you are saying nothing new. Isn't there enough talks, words? When you will act, and stop talking? When you will start living and stop this intellectual masturbating and whining that no one listens you, that no one understands you, that no one is going "deeper" with you. We can go very deep if you want, but I'm saying that it's has no value at all.

By the way, I haven't seen any meaningful post by you on this forum.

This post was last updated by Voco . Mon, 29 Feb 2016.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #124
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Sorry- I'll go and be Enlightened. Ass.

mike

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #125
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Sorry- I'll go and be Enlightened. Ass.

... I thought you already are, because you are telling me how I should behave!

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #126
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Very few, if at all, ever understand the significance of pursuing "being free from violence" as the major obstacle in achieving their goal.

Pursuing the ideal state of non violence (or any ideal state) is an obstacle to understanding the fact of what we are...angry..violent. Is this what you're saying, Sudhir? Anyone?

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #127
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Pursuing the ideal state of non violence (or any ideal state) is an obstacle to understanding the fact of what we are...angry..violent. Is this what you're saying, Sudhir?

The self/me wants to be free from violence and will make efforts to achieve the projected goal. If the goal is achieved, then what will self/me do?

The self does not actually want a solution to the problem of violence as then it would lose its hold/control on the state of affairs. Just to keep itself active/alive, it will continue to find violence and continue to make efforts to get rid of it...the ending of this cycle is not ever in the interest of the continuity of self/me, Tom...so, it never happens!

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #128
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

re: #71 and #76

Voco,

As I see it, what we usually call "anger" arises wherever the self-image is threatened. That is, “I” might think that … I’m being disrespected, belittled, ignored, or that others are not behaving in accordance with my personal principles or ideals, i.e. not behaving as I think they should. Or I might think that I’m perceived as weak, out of control, stupid, and so on. There are many scenarios and narratives that cause “me” to be hurt in this way, and I’m not indifferent to this hurt, I’m frightened of being perceived as weak, crazy, or stupid, etc. That to me is the source of what we call “anger” --- divided thought.

It’s true that understanding that doesn’t mean that I will never be angry ever again. But it does mean that, understanding the process that puts anger together, I no longer justify or explain my anger away, I do not expand or deepen it by reciting my old, customary narratives and explanations. So when anger arises, what is important to me is not correcting OTHERS, finding fault in others, turning my gaze and focus on what OTHERS are doing. Just to see and understand the source of MY anger, the process which puts anger together in this way is enough. It is a new direction, and the very seeing or attention ACTS, even as "my" anger and fear are being observed.

Of course, there might be times when “anger” is necessary, but I do not really call that “anger” where it is not the same mental process --- division --- at the source of it.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #129
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
re: #71 and #76

Voco,

As I see it, what we usually call "anger" arises wherever the self-image is threatened. That is, “I” might think that … I’m being disrespected, belittled, ignored, or that others are not behaving in accordance with my personal principles or ideals, i.e. not behaving as I think they should. Or I might think that I’m perceived as weak, out of control, stupid, and so on. There are many scenarios and narratives that cause “me” to be hurt in this way, and I’m not indifferent to this hurt, I’m frightened of being perceived as weak, crazy, or stupid, etc. That to me is the source of what we call “anger” --- divided thought.

It’s true that understanding that doesn’t mean that I will never be angry ever again. But it does mean that, understanding the process that puts anger together, I no longer justify or explain my anger away, I do not expand or deepen it by reciting my old, customary narratives and explanations. So when anger arises, what is important to me is not correcting OTHERS, finding fault in others, turning my gaze and focus on what OTHERS are doing. Just to see and understand the source of MY anger, the process which puts anger together in this way is enough. It is a new direction, and the very seeing or attention ACTS, even as "my" anger and fear are being observed.

Of course, there might be times when “anger” is necessary, but I do not really call that “anger” where it is not the same mental process --- division --- at the source of it.

Thank you for reply, Huguette. I generally agree with what you write here. I see anger as force, as energy, however it can be both destructive and helpful, it depends on circumstances. I'm not condemning anger nor praising it.

Huguette . wrote:
As I see it, what we usually call "anger" arises wherever the self-image is threatened. That is, “I” might think that … I’m being disrespected, belittled, ignored, or that others are not behaving in accordance with my personal principles or ideals, i.e. not behaving as I think they should. Or I might think that I’m perceived as weak, out of control, stupid, and so on.

But do you agree, that there can be other side of this, that there is might not be any "I", that it is not that I think this happens, but it is indeed happens. If someone is continuously is making fun of you, humiliates you or ignores, is it necessarily that you think so?

This post was last updated by Voco . Mon, 29 Feb 2016.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #130
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
The self does not actually want a solution to the problem of violence as then it would lose its hold/control on the state of affairs.

True enough. The self in its actions is violent, as far as I can see. This violent 'me' cannot put an end to itself, can it?

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
the ending of this cycle is not ever in the interest of the continuity of self/me, Tom...so, it never happens!

What a depressing state of affairs for mankind! Anyone else have any input here as to what can be done, if anything, here?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 29 Feb 2016.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #131
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

re: #129

Voco . wrote:
But do you agree, that there can be other side of this, that there is might not be any "I", that it is not that I think this happens, but it is indeed happens. If someone is continuously is making fun of you, humiliates you or ignores, is it necessarily that you think so?

Logically speaking, I don’t see how it can be anything else but self-image --- i.e. “me” --- which is hurt by ridicule or humiliation. As I see it, it is “my” interpretation --- based on the past, on conditioning --- and no other factor, which causes me to “feel” humiliated: --- “I should be treated respectfully” vs. “I’m being disrespected, humiliated, I’m intelligent, wiser than others, and I don’t deserve this treatment, I must do something about it and I don’t know what to do”. This fear of the self-image seeming impotent, clueless, stupid, and so on, gives birth to anger. That’s how I see it. I can’t express it any better for now and I could be mistaken.

There are people who are NOT hurt and angered by such circumstances, for example Jesus and Mohammed according to the stories. And please, I’m not saying Jesus was the son of God or Mohammed was the last prophet of God or that all the stories are accurate --- they’re just illustrations of another way that human beings can respond to humiliation and disrespect. There are teachers, parents, colleagues, who puff up their chest the moment they feel they are insulted and who retaliate. There are parents who beat their children, husbands who beat their wives (and vice-versa) the moment they feel disrespected. You know the kind of thing: “She (or he) knows how to push my buttons, so it’s HER (or his) fault if I beat her”.

I’m tired now, so I’ll leave it at that for now. I don't know when I will have a chance to rest so perhaps I'll consider this again later.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #132
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Logically speaking, I don’t see how it can be anything else but self-image --- i.e. “me” --- which is hurt by ridicule or humiliation. As I see it, it is “my” interpretation --- based on the past, on conditioning --- and no other factor, which causes me to “feel” humiliated: --

Why does it have to be self image? I may feel threatened physically...as when bullying goes on in public school. "If they're ridiculing me, and hate me, perhaps they want to hurt me physically", I might be thinking/feeling. In fact physical intimidation is quite common among boys in school and out. I've seen this kind of thing my whole life, and it seems the intention of this kind of ridicule is to dominate and frighten the victim/s. A loved one of mine was totally frightened by this kind of thing when she was in high school. A classmate threatened to beat her up, in fact. That was another girl. The boys in school were also incredibly violent....physically so. This frightened her so much that she was afraid to ride on the school bus and had to be driven to school by a family friend. So it's not just self image which is threatened, but our physical safety and well being.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 01 Mar 2016.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #133
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
There are people who are NOT hurt and angered by such circumstances, for example Jesus and Mohammed according to the stories.

Are you saying that Mohammed did not use violence to get what he wanted ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #134
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Logically speaking, I don’t see how it can be anything else but self-image --- i.e. “me” --- which is hurt by ridicule or humiliation.

Anger just cannot be so one-sided, it's a tremendous energy, as I've said it is not some pettiness. What you are saying here is more an analysis of anger. It is valid, but it is only one side of the many.

Huguette . wrote:
As I see it, it is “my” interpretation --- based on the past, on conditioning --- and no other factor, which causes me to “feel” humiliated: --- “I should be treated respectfully” vs. “I’m being disrespected, humiliated, I’m intelligent, wiser than others, and I don’t deserve this treatment, I must do something about it and I don’t know what to do”. This fear of the self-image seeming impotent, clueless, stupid, and so on, gives birth to anger. That’s how I see it. I can’t express it any better for now and I could be mistaken.

The question is where do you put this "I should be treated respectfully", is it just an idea, or it's a sane response. It can be both you see. I can be hurt and become angry because I'm thinking that I am great philosopher and somebody comes and tells me that I'm talking rubbish. Or, I might be angry because I want to finish something, end something, to destroy the wall, such anger is there to release one from shackles.

Huguette . wrote:
There are people who are NOT hurt and angered by such circumstances, for example Jesus and Mohammed according to the stories.

Well, I'm not the reader of religious literature, but there is some stories which tells opposite, for example:

And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you make it a den of robbers.”

As for Muhammad he was a general and warrior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_expeditio...

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #135
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Why does it have to be self image? I may feel threatened physically...as when bullying goes on in public school. "If they're ridiculing me, and hate me, perhaps they want to hurt me physically", I might be thinking/feeling. In fact physical intimidation is quite common among boys in school and out. I've seen this kind of thing my whole life, and it seems the intention of this kind of ridicule is to dominate and frighten the victim/s. A loved one of mine was totally frightened by this kind of thing when she was in high school. A classmate threatened to beat her up, in fact. That was another girl. The boys in school were also incredibly violent....physically so. This frightened her so much that she was afraid to ride on the school bus and had to be driven to school by a family friend. So it's not just self image which is threatened, but our physical safety and well being.

Yes, that is also true.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #136
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

re: #132

Tom,

I feel that you have switched the subject from apples (anger in the face of humiliation or ridicule) to oranges (fear in the face of danger).

Of course there is such a thing as physical danger. It would be foolish to pretend that there is no such thing or that there is no danger where there is, or to refuse to acknowledge it. To me, one’s response in the face of physical danger or threat --- to oneself or another --- is not the “anger” of SELF which feels attacked --- it does not involve the same process of mental division at the source of the response. To face or acknowledge the presence of danger is intelligence --- this may also be called fear but it is not the same fear as the fear of divided thought. To me, being governed by self where there is danger increases the danger.

I was talking about the anger of self (divided thought) --- being afraid and angered by the idea of being humiliated or disrespected is not the fear or anger in a situation of physical threat or danger. Where there is physical danger, SELF (divided thought) cannot put the appropriate action together, it can’t provide safety, it can’t resolve the situation intelligently.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #137
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
There are people who are NOT hurt and angered by such circumstances, for example Jesus and Mohammed according to the stories.

Jean Gatti wrote:

133

Are you saying that Mohammed did not use violence to get what he wanted ?

There are many stories, in the contemporaneous Hadith, of Mohammed not responding with anger to personal insult and humiliation, but I don't want to veer off away from the essential into other issues. Forget Jesus and Mohammed. I couldn't think of another example but I for one have witnessed mature, intelligent people who stay calm in the face of adversity ... though I still can't specifically recall them now.

We get distracted so easily. I think that this is one of the things which hinders our investigation of the essential.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Tue, 01 Mar 2016.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #138
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
There are many stories, in the contemporaneous Hadith, of Mohammed not responding with anger to personal insult and humiliation

Sorry to contradict you Huguette but most Hadiths have been written more than 100 years after Mohammed's death, so certainly not 'comtemporaneous' ... moreover most Hadith are part of the 'legend', they are not reliable at all ...

While the 'fact' is that Mohammed was a warlord who conquered vast territories using violence, murder and rape ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #139
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
We get distracted so easily

Yes, better stick to facts ... and not 'legends' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #140
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

Jean,

Is it really more important to you to discredit Mohammed than to understand the source of anger, fear, desire, compulsion, and so on, which poison our lives?

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #141
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Is it really more important to you to discredit Mohammed than to understand the source of anger, fear, desire, compulsion, and so on, which poison our lives?

It is important to me to stick to facts ... Mohammed is considered as an example to 'imitate' by more than one billion people on this planet ... don't you see the danger of this ? The danger of ALL ideologies ? Did you read K ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Tue, 01 Mar 2016.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #142
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

The fact is that we live in conflict and misery. There are no "facts" about Mohammed or anything or anyone else that people fight about. Who did what is part of time and naming. It can NEVER bring self-understanding. It can NEVER resolve any conflict.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #143
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
The fact is that we live in conflict and misery.

Most of the conflicts come from ideologies and beliefs ... K101

Why resist 'what is' ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #144
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

Doesn't referring to "K101" imply that you have already mastered, learned K101, that you now know something, that you have it "under your belt" or possess it so to speak? Isn't that creating a divide, a conflict, between "you" and "me"? I don't see it as one friend looking at something together with another. But then again, maybe I come across that way too. Is there any way for us to talk to each other that does not create this chasm?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #145
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Doesn't referring to "K101" imply that you have already mastered, learned K101, that you now know something, that you have it "under your belt" or possess it so to speak?

Yes...it often appears that way to me, as well. Rather than exploring together, it's one trying to lead/teach the 'other'.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 01 Mar 2016.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #146
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Tom,

I feel that you have switched the subject from apples (anger in the face of humiliation or ridicule) to oranges (fear in the face of danger).

I may be mistaken, but I was seeing the source of anger at being ridiculed as being a deep fear of being physically hurt or abandoned. I'll need to look further into this. I've been aware of there things since my early school days. Some kids were/are just so incredibly cruel to those they perceive as different...or weaker...vulnerable.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #147
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I may be mistaken, but I was seeing the source of anger at being ridiculed as being a deep fear of being physically hurt or abandoned.

Hasn't it been said that there is only one basic "emotion," the feeling of fear?

max

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #148
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Is there any way for us to talk to each other that does not create this chasm?

The chasm is the self, the thinker. It is not that there is a chasm between selves, or thinkers, who are trying to communicate. When the self is absent, there is no entity to be "separate."

max

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #149
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Isn't that creating a divide, a conflict, between "you" and "me"?

No Huguette, just a small humoristic challenge, hoping it is not 'irritating' you :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Mar 2016 #150
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
The chasm is the self, the thinker.

Exactly so Max ... if a division is created then for sure the self shows up ...

"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves."

Carl Jung

Why resist 'what is' ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 121 - 150 of 156 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)