Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The essential


Displaying posts 91 - 120 of 156 in total
Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #91
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Anger is a reaction, a response, yes, but not necessarily a response to someone's anger, it might be a response to any situation.

Response is response not 'anger', isn't it?

Doesn't 'anger' arise with a reaction to response?

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #92
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Response is response not 'anger', isn't it?

No, anger is a response to what is.

Doesn't 'anger' arise with a reaction to response?

Reaction is a response.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #93
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
No, anger is a response to what is.

I will make it clearer.

A particular type of response to 'what is' is labeled as 'anger' from memory. Without the label, it is just a response like any other response, isn't it?

Voco . wrote:
Reaction is a response.

There is a difference.

Reaction to a stimulus is controlled by past experience/knowledge while response uses them. What do you say?

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This post was last updated by Sudhir Sharma Sun, 28 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #94
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
A particular type of response to 'what is' is labeled as 'anger' from memory. Without the label, it is just a response like any other response, isn't it?

But anger is not just a word, Sudhir.

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Without the label, it is just a response like any other response, isn't it?

What do you mean? Do you mean there is no difference between response of anger and response of joy, or pain, for example?

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
There is a difference.

Reaction to a stimulus is controlled by past experience/knowledge while response uses them. What do you say?

I don't understand you here. If you burned yourself, there is a response of pain, what past experience or knowledge is involved in that?

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #95
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
What do you mean? Do you mean there is no difference between response of anger and response of joy, or pain, for example?

Can you know the difference without recognition/labeling?

Voco . wrote:
If you burned yourself, there is a response of pain, what past experience or knowledge is involved in that?

Voco, all labeling is done by knowledge/experience. The actual sensation that is being felt has no label. This is what I am saying.

Physical sensations have a different life span and history once they are labeled.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #96
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Can you know the difference without recognition/labeling?

Of course, by feeling.

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Voco, all labeling is done by knowledge/experience. The actual sensation that is being felt has no label. This is what I am saying.

That is so, but previously you have said something different, that reaction to stimulus is controlled by past experiences, knowledge. And sometimes it is not clear what we are really talking about... Maybe we should not hurry with responses so much :)

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #97
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Interest is generated in whatever one is doing to reduce pain produced by anger.

Does any kind of interest actually help in the matter?

We don't know, do we? Lots of serious minded folks are very intent on getting to the root of human disorder and suffering, but apparently most are not succeeding. If they in fact are, the daily newspaper is not reflecting their success, but rather their failure...the failure of anyone to effect any fundamental change in society...the world. But we feel we must do something, right? Can we accept this violent world as well as our own violence/anger as the norm and just do nothing? Just carry on keeping a stiff upper lip, as the English used to say....'keep calm and carry on'?

Let it Be

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #98
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
We don't know, do we? Lots of serious minded folks are very intent on getting to the root of human disorder and suffering, but apparently most are not succeeding. If they in fact are, the daily newspaper is not reflecting their success, but rather their failure...the failure of anyone to effect any fundamental change in society...the world. But we feel we must do something, right? Can we accept this violent world as well as our own violence/anger as the norm and just do nothing? Just carry on keeping a stiff upper lip, as the English used to say....'keep calm and carry on'?

I agree, but it is only very, very few who are serious and intent. I mean, many feel they can change the world through politics, or environmentalism, or science, or the religions. If any are truly changing I wouldn't expect it in the newspaper, when the majority go in for pretty petty things.

I think some people are interested, and their discoveries do not count for nothing, though it may not show in the world. The change begins within, not outside, and that is not the view of the vast majority.

mike

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #99
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
I think some people are interested, and their discoveries do not count for nothing, though it may not show in the world. The change begins within, not outside, and that is not the view of the vast majority.

That's so, but then why there is K schools around the world? That is, my question is, how can one bring about change within from outside?

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #100
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Can we accept this violent world as well as our own violence/anger as the norm and just do nothing?

Hello Tom,

About violence in the world we can do nothing ... about our own violence maybe we can look at it and find its roots ? After all aren't we 'responsible' for our emotions ?

Who else would be ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #101
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
About violence in the world we can do nothing ... about our own violence maybe we can look at it and find its roots ? After all aren't we 'responsible' for our emotions ?

Who else would be ?

And do you expect violence to evaporate by finding it's roots?

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #102
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
And do you expect violence to evaporate by finding it's roots?

Its roots and its manifestations.

mike

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #103
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Its roots and its manifestations.

And what? Say you know the roots and it's manifestations. Will you never be violent in your life? You can't know this, do you? If you say you will be, you are already violent to yourself now, because of the adherence to that idea that you will be not violent. In any way, what is violence, how do you define it?

This post was last updated by Voco . Mon, 29 Feb 2016.

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #104
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
And do you expect violence to evaporate by finding it's roots?

First of all we have to understand the nature of violence.

Why are we violent ?

Isn't violence a resistance to 'what is' ? isn't violence a reaction to a perceived 'threat' ?

What is it that is being threatened ? ... even in this forum we see people insulting others, what is it that they defend and protect ?

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #105
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Isn't violence a resistance to 'what is' ? isn't violence a reaction to a perceived 'threat' ?

It is, but can you always stay with "what is" ? Yes, is a reaction to a perceived threat, but can you just ignore that threat and stay with "what is" ?

Jean Gatti wrote:
What is it that is being threatened ? ... even in this forum we see people insulting others, what is it that they defend and protect ?

I don't think it's a correct question. First we should ask "Why someone perceives something as threat" and "Why someone perceives something as defense". For example, I was kicked out from Clive's forum, because he said I offend people there including himself, even though I had no such intentions at all, it is simply those people became offended.

This post was last updated by Voco . Mon, 29 Feb 2016.

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #106
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
And what? Say you know the roots and it's manifestations. Will you never be violent in your life? You can't know this, do you? If you say you will be, you are already violent to yourself now, because of the adherence to that idea that you will be not violent. In any way, what is violence, how do you define it?

Voco, what planet are you from? You don't discuss, you just badger. You don't listen, you don't try to find out what someone is saying.

Anyway, I never said I know the roots and its manifestations. I never said I will never be violent in my life. Then you dictate what will happen if one adheres to your own ideas about all this.

In any way, how do I define violence? I would say it includes anger, envy, hate, jealousy, conformity, acceptance of authority, am I missing anything? Do tell me.

mike

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #107
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
For example, I was kicked out from Clive's forum, because he said I offend people there including himself, even though I had no such intentions at all, it is simply those people became offended.

Some of your comments indicate a lack of compassion Voco, or at least a lack of respect ... maybe you don't realize this ?

We are not just machines or punching balls ... people have their own sensitivity ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Mon, 29 Feb 2016.

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #108
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Voco, what planet are you from? You don't discuss, you just badger. You don't listen, you don't try to find out what someone is saying.

Should I meet your expectations of what is discussion? You are saying I'm not listening, how do you know? How do you know I'm not trying to find out? Because I disagree with you?

m christani wrote:
Anyway, I never said I know the roots and its manifestations. I never said I will never be violent in my life. Then you dictate what will happen if one adheres to your own ideas about all this.

Take war for example. It is a complex problem, isn't it? When one is killing another, what one should do? Kill another? That's violence. Don't do anything and be killed by another? That is violence too, only to yourself, isn't it?

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #109
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Yes, is a reaction to a perceived threat, but can you just ignore that threat and stay with "what is" ?

Well Voco, there are two opportunities to stay with 'what is':

1) something happens and you don't resist to it, no emotional reaction and no problem

2) you have missed the first opportunity and have reacted emotionally because of a perceived threat (anger, jealousy, fear, disappointment etc) ... hence this emotional reaction becomes 'what is' ... do not resist or repress it ... don't try to 'fix' it by some physical (re)action (retribution, revenge, violence, insults etc) ... and see what happens ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #110
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Take war for example. It is a complex problem, isn't it? When one is killing another, what one should do? Kill another? That's violence. Don't do anything and be killed by another? That is violence too, only to yourself, isn't it?

K said, for example, that if he was forced to go to war and fight, he would not, and would probably be imprisoned or shot. It was not a problem to him.

mike

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #111
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Some of your comments indicate a lack of compassion Voco, or at least a lack of respect ... maybe you don't realize this ?

We are not just machines or punching balls ... people have their own sensitivity ...

I do realize. I'm simply not pretending to be compassionate or respect others if I don't.

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #112
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
K said, for example, that if he was forced to go to war and fight, he would not, and would probably be imprisoned or shot. It was not a problem to him.

I would do the same, but then you are violent to yourself and violence will not evaporate anywhere.

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #113
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
I would do the same, but then you are violent to yourself and violence will not evaporate anywhere.

Are you saying everything is violence and will always and everywhere be violence and there is no end to it possible? That there is no action that is not violence?

mike

This post was last updated by m christani Mon, 29 Feb 2016.

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #114
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Can we accept this violent world as well as our own violence/anger as the norm and just do nothing?

The verbal acceptance or rejection/condemnation of the world as it is is not going to make any difference to the present state of affairs, Tom. If one is violent within oneself, then it would only add to sum total of violence. Moreover, a violent person going out in the world to reduce violence will obviously fail.

So, it comes back to understanding the factors of one's being violent in oneself and that may affect the overall situation in one's life at least.

Tom Paine wrote:
Lots of serious minded folks are very intent on getting to the root of human disorder and suffering, but apparently most are not succeeding.

Yes, they/we are not succeeding because basically they/we don't want to be free of violence. Their/our interest is in being free of pain and consequences of disturbing retaliation that the violence brings in life. Most (or all?) would continue to be violent only if they could be free of pain or retaliation.

Those who, somehow, get honestly interested in being free of violence lack direct understanding of self or self knowledge that could do the job.

Very few, if at all, ever understand the significance of pursuing "being free from violence" as the major obstacle in achieving their goal.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #115
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Are you saying everything is violence and will always and everywhere be violence and there is no end to it possible? That there is no action that is not violence?

What is violence? Violence is a tremendous energy, isn't it? It's not some pettiness as you might think. Now, who is to say what is right and what is wrong? Obviously no one, we must ourselves find that out through relationship, if there is no relationship, violence is bound to happen.

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #116
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
That's so, but then why there is K schools around the world? That is, my question is, how can one bring about change within from outside?

Do you object to the existence of such school? How intense is your objection, Voco?

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #117
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir, excuse me, but you are talking nonsense.

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #118
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
about our own violence maybe we can look at it and find its roots ?

Why would you want to do so in relation to violence, Jean?

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #119
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Sudhir, excuse me, but you are talking nonsense.

Which post?

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #120
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Do you object to the existence of such school? How intense is your objection, Voco?

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/worldwide-informat...

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Which post?

post #114, but in general, many of them. Is it only to me seems so? Perhaps. But I really find it very superficial, distorting, and bogus.

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