Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The essential


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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #61
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 502 posts in this forum Offline

re: #35

Voco . wrote:
Well, again, timeless beings, silence of being and so on can be the same petty idea. It stems from you, from your experience, but nothing like that exists factually, it is your impression.

I don’t agree with you that nothing “like that” exists factually. You yourself called it “what is left” after all knowledge, images, memory are wiped out --- that is still naming, that is still thought. Do you think that “what is left” is better than "timeless being, silence of being, awareness", and so on? The fact is that there is more to human existence than thought. It is extremely difficult to put it into words and yet it is easily observable in one way or another.

When one is quietly observing the totality of the living being that is oneself, it is not just the movements of thought that are observed. There is something between thoughts, between ideas, and so on. When thought is not moving, there is silent awareness which is not “known” or measurable. Whatever it is called, that something is of the utmost importance.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #62
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I don’t agree with you that nothing “like that” exists factually. You yourself called it “what is left” after all knowledge, images, memory are wiped out --- that is still naming, that is still thought. Do you think that “what is left” is better than "timeless being, silence of being, awareness", and so on?

I agree here with you, one word is no better than the other.

Huguette . wrote:
The fact is that there is more to human existence than thought.

Of course, but then again, is there something which you can tell exists without thinking about it first?

Huguette . wrote:
It is extremely difficult to put it into words and yet it is easily observable in one way or another.

Therefore why even try to put it into words, can you tell me the motive behind that? Do you want to change other people, or do you want to be unique, or do you want others to think of you as someone special? What is it? Why can't you live with it and not ring in a bell about it? Do you think the world will become different because of your words? Don't tell me all this nonsense about sharing with others and so on.

Huguette . wrote:
When one is quietly observing the totality of the living being that is oneself, it is not just the movements of thought that are observed. There is something between thoughts, between ideas, and so on. When thought is not moving, there is silent awareness which is not “known” or measurable. Whatever it is called, that something is of the utmost importance.

I don't care in what you believe is important or not. Your giving of importance to that has no significance at all for this life.

This post was last updated by Voco . Sun, 28 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #63
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 502 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:

The fact is that there is more to human existence than thought.

Voco . wrote:
Of course, but then again, is there something which you can tell exists without thinking about it first?

Of course, wordlessly, silently. Everything.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #64
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 502 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Therefore why even try to put it into words, can you tell me the motive behind that? Do you want to change other people, or do you want to be unique, or do you want others to think of you as someone special? What is it? Why can't you live with it and not ring in a bell about it? Do you think the world will become different because of your words? Don't tell me all this nonsense about sharing with others and so on.

I know you don't care what I think, but .... I think you --- me, we and they --- need to ask yourself these questions. Why do you care about MY motives?

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #65
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Of course, wordlessly, silently. Everything.

Thought is not just a word. Even when there is supposed silence there is thought about it. I don't know, why to fool yourself and others with all that... The fact is without thought you would not be able to tell anything about anything.

Huguette . wrote:
I know you don't care what I think, but .... I think you --- me, we and they --- need to ask yourself these questions. Why do you care about MY motives?

I don't care, I'm just asking, if you don't want to answer, it's your choice, but then why talk about that?

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #66
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
I don't care, I'm just asking, if you don't want to answer, it's your choice, but then why talk about that?

Because it's a forum?

mike

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #67
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Because it's a forum?

One thing is to talk about conditioning, one thing is to doubt, but to talk about what is or what is not love, compassion, meditation and substitute their meanings is totally useless, at least for me it is so. Basically it means this: "Your understanding of X is not right, it is wrong, listen to me, because I certainly know what is X and what it is not", in reality all these talks remains just at verbal level, the word cannot go beyond itself, at the very least, listener can associate the word with some experience, but that's it, it's just another form of the same. I thought that love is to love someone, and now I'm thinking that love is everything. What's the difference, if it's still a thought? More beautiful one though.

This post was last updated by Voco . Sun, 28 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #68
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
One thing is to talk about conditioning, one thing is to doubt, but to talk about what is or what is not love, compassion, meditation and substitute their meanings is totally useless, at least for me it is so. Basically it means this: "Your understanding of X is not right, it is wrong, listen to me, because I certainly know what is X and what it is not".

I agree. These words can be thrown around meaninglessly- they are beyond thought. Can they be touched nevertheless?

mike

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #69
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
I agree. These words can be thrown around meaninglessly- they are beyond thought. Can they be touched nevertheless?

I'm saying that no, we cannot communicate that through words, but the words are not the only means of relationship.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #70
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 502 posts in this forum Offline

#67

Voco . wrote:
Thought is not just a word. Even when there is supposed silence there is thought about it. I don't know, why to fool yourself and others with all that... The fact is without thought you would not be able to tell anything about anything.

#65

Voco . wrote:
Basically it means this: "Your understanding of X is not right, it is wrong, listen to me, because I certainly know what is X and what it is not".

That Thing Which You Fight You Become (The Book of Life)

Surely that thing which you fight you become. If I am angry and you meet me with anger what is the result? More anger. You have become that which I am. If I am evil and you fight me with evil means then you also become evil, however righteous you may feel. If I am brutal and you use brutal methods to overcome me, then you become brutal like me. And this we have done for thousands of years. Surely there is a different approach than to meet hate by hate. If I use violent methods to quell anger in myself then I am using wrong means for a right end, and thereby the right end ceases to be. In this there is no understanding; there is no transcending anger. Anger is to be studied tolerantly and understood; it is not to be overcome through violent means. Anger may be the result of many causes and without comprehending them there is no escape from anger.

We have created the enemy, the bandit, and becoming ourselves the enemy in no way brings about an end to enmity. We have to understand the cause of enmity and cease to feed it by our thought, feeling, and action. This is an arduous task demanding constant self-awareness and intelligent pliability, for what we are the society, the state is. The enemy and the friend are the outcome of our thought and action. We are responsible for creating enmity and so it is more important to be aware of our own thought and action than to be concerned with the foe and the friend, for right thinking puts an end to division.Love transcends the friend and the enemy.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #71
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Surely that thing which you fight you become. If I am angry and you meet me with anger what is the result? More anger. You have become that which I am. If I am evil and you fight me with evil means then you also become evil, however righteous you may feel. If I am brutal and you use brutal methods to overcome me, then you become brutal like me. And this we have done for thousands of years. Surely there is a different approach than to meet hate by hate. If I use violent methods to quell anger in myself then I am using wrong means for a right end, and thereby the right end ceases to be. In this there is no understanding; there is no transcending anger. Anger is to be studied tolerantly and understood; it is not to be overcome through violent means. Anger may be the result of many causes and without comprehending them there is no escape from anger.

What do you mean by anger? Anger arises when one is against something, right? Therefore can we speak of the anger as something wrong or right only? There might be situations when anger is necessary. And, if you are against anger, you want to overcome it, get rid of it, then you are angry, isn't it? I agree, that anger must be understood, but to live with an idea that "you must not be angry" is already to be angry.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #72
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
I agree, that anger must be understood, but to live with an idea that "you must not be angry" is already to be angry.

What is there to understand about anger? What will one do to gain such understanding?

"Anger must be understood" and "you must not be angry"...both are goal oriented ideas, the later is obviously so while former is subtle.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #73
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 502 posts in this forum Offline

To say, for example, that the result of meeting anger with anger is more anger is not saying that anger is right or wrong. The facts of anger are just being looked at.

My understanding of anger is not just that anger signfies that one is against something but that there is some form of fear underlying the anger. Can I simply observe not only the thing that makes me angry but my response to it? What makes me angry about it? Is it necessary to be angry about it? Why am I against something? Can I see the movement of anger as it flowers within, without justifying it?

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #74
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
My understanding of anger is not just that anger signfies that one is against something but that there is some form of fear underlying the anger. Can I simply observe not only the thing that makes me angry but my response to it? What makes me angry about it? Is it necessary to be angry about it? Why am I against something? Can I see the movement of anger as it flowers within, without justifying it?

What you are suggesting above, where does this process of observation/movement of thought reacting to thought end?

One is doing what is outlined above every time one is angry...is this even possible/practical?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #75
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 502 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
What you are suggesting above, where does this process of observation/movement of thought reacting to thought end?

One is doing what is outlined above every time one is angry...is this even possible/practical?

I'm not suggesting anything, Sudhir. I'm interested in all this. This interest is a flame that burns without "me" wanting it. I don't know what is possible or practical.

If anyone is also interested, we can talk things over. I don't want to convince or influence anyone. I don't care to justify my interest.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #76
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
What is there to understand about anger? What will one do to gain such understanding?

"Anger must be understood" and "you must not be angry"...both are goal oriented ideas, the later is obviously so while former is subtle.

At least one should see if it's necessary or not. That is, will it change anything?

Huguette . wrote:
To say, for example, that the result of meeting anger with anger is more anger is not saying that anger is right or wrong. The facts of anger are just being looked at.

Right.

Huguette . wrote:
My understanding of anger is not just that anger signfies that one is against something but that there is some form of fear underlying the anger. Can I simply observe not only the thing that makes me angry but my response to it? What makes me angry about it? Is it necessary to be angry about it? Why am I against something? Can I see the movement of anger as it flowers within, without justifying it?

Is fear necessarily underlies the anger? How can you observe a response of anger, if a response is an anger itself? Yes, we might see what causes anger, but will that stop it? We might talk and think about anger as much as we want, but that alone doesn't means that we will never be angry at anything in life.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #77
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:

Huguette . wrote:

My understanding of anger is not just that anger signfies that one is against something but that there is some form of fear underlying the anger. Can I simply observe not only the thing that makes me angry but my response to it? What makes me angry about it? Is it necessary to be angry about it? Why am I against something? Can I see the movement of anger as it flowers within, without justifying it?

What you are suggesting above, where does this process of observation/movement of thought reacting to thought end?

One is doing what is outlined above every time one is angry...is this even possible/practical?

Sudhir, do you mean you are doing that or anyone who is angry?

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #78
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

For example if someone humiliates you or beats you, or annoys you, or offends you, or crosses the boundaries and tells you how to live, what to do, what not to do, will it not cause an anger in you? Was you never angry? Are you not angry sometimes? Was K never angry? I myself can tell, that sometimes I am angry and aggressive and violent.

This post was last updated by Voco . Sun, 28 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #79
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I don't want to convince or influence anyone

same here and that is why (mostly) the questions are asked, Huguette. May be you will have another look at the questions and respond.

Huguette . wrote:
This interest is a flame that burns without "me" wanting it.

There is nothing wrong even if "me" gets interested in this...invariably at the beginning it is 'me' that gets interested in this journey.

Why do you say that "This interest is a flame that burns without "me" wanting it."? What has happened to 'me'?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #80
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I'm interested in all this. This interest is a flame that burns without "me" wanting it. I don't know what is possible or practical.

I think we're interested simply because we see the disasterous effects of anger outwardly. When one lashes out in anger at one's spouse or child it's a form of violence. If my employer lashes out in anger at me, I feel afraid...or I may lash out at him, and lose my job.

Let it Be

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #81
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
At least one should see if it's necessary or not. That is, will it change anything?

More goals are appearing here, Voco.

Ideas as goals have a tendency to never get attained/accomplished in psychological matters. The pattern of projecting a goal as idea and pursuing it again and again never stops...or can it? What do you/anyone say?

Voco . wrote:
Sudhir, do you mean you are doing that or anyone who is angry?

Question not clear, Voco.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #82
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
I myself can tell, that sometimes I am angry and aggressive and violent.

Now please tell what more is there to understand with respect to anger as you mentioned previously.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #83
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I think we're interested simply because we see the disasterous effects of anger outwardly.

This is only one half of the story, Tom. Seeing the disastrous effects, one wants either not to get angry anymore or, failing that, justifies the anger and tries to become insensitive to negative consequences. One's interest is then in second half.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #84
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
More goals are appearing here, Voco.

Ideas as goals have a tendency to never get attained/accomplished in psychological matters. The pattern of projecting a goal as idea and pursuing it again and again never stops...or can it? What do you/anyone say?

Right. Then, are we saying that we cannot do anything with anger? That is, should we do anything with it at all is the wrong question.

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Question not clear, Voco.

You have said that whenever one is angry he tries to understand anger, but is it so?

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Now please tell what more is there to understand with respect to anger as you mentioned previously.

I think we should not understand anger, violence, aggression as such, but our own actions. You see, sometimes you can act with a lot of energy, and somebody may come to you and say: you are angry, you are aggressive, you are violent and so on, all these are just a names.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #85
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
failing that, justifies the anger and tries to become insensitive to negative consequences. One's interest is then in second half.

Can you rephrase this Sudhir? It's not clear what you're getting at in that last sentence.

Let it Be

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #86
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Then, are we saying that we cannot do anything with anger?

No...the fact is that we always react to anger.

Voco . wrote:
That is, should we do anything with it at all is the wrong question.

Actually it is an answer to the question "should we do anything at all with anger?"...An answer that is going to give continuity to the question. :)

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #87
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
No...the fact is that we always react to anger.

Do we? Well I'm not talking now about reaction to someone's else anger. I'm talking about one's own anger.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #88
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Can you rephrase this Sudhir? It's not clear what you're getting at in that last sentence.

One can reduce pain/disturbances produced by anger either by getting rid of habit or reducing the frequency/intensity of anger or by justifying the anger or by becoming insensitive to the pain caused in another or in oneself. Interest is generated in whatever one is doing to reduce pain produced by anger.

Does any kind of interest actually help in the matter?

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #89
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Do we?

yes...and sooner than later!

Is there 'anger' unless one is reacting?

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #90
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
yes...and sooner than later!

Is there 'anger' unless one is reacting?

Anger is a reaction, a response, yes, but not necessarily a response to someone's anger, it might be a response to any situation.

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