Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The essential


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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #1
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 490 posts in this forum Offline

Past, future AND present do not exist. Object, movement, velocity, mass, measurement, memory, etc., do not exist. They are ALL concepts, useful concepts.

“The present” is no less a concept than are “past” or “future”. “Exist” is a concept. Every word we utter is a concept. Only when I point to something with my finger is there no concept, and I cannot point to “the present”. By the time I have pointed to the present, the present has become the past.

I see nothing wrong with concepts. Concept and measurement are not only essential, they are ….. delightful in the right place!

Word, concept and measurement have their proper place, but they do not belong in every moment.

Before I talk, after I talk, even while I talk, can I leave the world of concept and measurement aside, can I silently observe the movements of my mind and discover what “I am” --- what there is --- beyond the word, the concept, the measurement, the conclusion, the idea? Can I --- by observing my own mind’s movements or activities --- discover what is awareness and what is thought, will, effort, fear, desire, etc. --- starting from “I don’t know”, “I don’t understand”?

Whatever else one can say about understanding, to me it is clear that without a silence that is beyond the word --- if there is such a thing --- one can only remain mired in the dimension, in the world, in the “reality”, of concept and measurement, analysis, opinion, fear, effort, and so on.

Isn’t there such a thing as silence, silent observation, choiceless awareness, silent witnessing ---- however one may call it --- which is NOT the movement of the intellect? I for one think there is.

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #2
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Don't we live in the present?

max

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #3
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Concept might be based on observation, feeling, thinking, imagination and so on, but whatever it is, it is our interpretation.

Huguette . wrote:
Can I --- by observing my own mind’s movements or activities --- discover what is awareness and what is thought, will, effort, fear, desire, etc. --- starting from “I don’t know”, “I don’t understand”?

If you already know from what to start, then isn't it is a pattern in itself?

Huguette . wrote:
Isn’t there such a thing as silence, silent observation, choiceless awareness, silent witnessing ---- however one may call it --- which is NOT the movement of the intellect? I for one think there is.

It is all concepts... However noble and beautiful they sound, it is a product of man's experience. Even "intellect" is another concept. There is nothing like silence, silent observation, awareness, silent witnessing and so on, it is our creation. You can experiment with it, is all that actually exists without thinking?

Even a concept is a concept...

This post was last updated by Voco . Tue, 23 Feb 2016.

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #4
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I cannot point to “the present”.

But I can BE the presence ... without needing any concept for that ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #5
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
But I can BE the presence ... without needing any concept for that ...

Can you? Or that is another thought?

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #6
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Can you? Or that is another thought?

Yes we can ! :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #7
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Yes we can ! :-)

And that is a thought which drives this idea "I am in presence".

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #8
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

The present as a concept? This is foolishness. We live in the present and not in the past or the future --both of which are concepts.

All of existence, the physical universe, exists, and it exists only in the present.

There is nothing that exists, nothing that takes place, other than in the present.

Time, the past, the future are concepts, but the present is reality.

max

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #9
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
The present as a concept? This is foolishness.

Then tell what is it, and what you will tell will be not different from what you think.

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #10
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
The present as a concept? This is foolishness.

Right max, thought is so foolish that it can't even differentiate reality from mind-created illusions ... certainly mind is the greatest of all illusionists :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #11
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Then tell what is it

The word is not the thing Voco ... BE it ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #12
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Then tell what is it . . .

We live it (the present). Talking about the present is just something that we do.

max

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #13
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Right max, thought is so foolish that it can't even differentiate reality from mind-created illusions ... certainly mind is the greatest of all illusionists :-)

Might I ask you, what is thought, what is mind, what is reality, what is illusion? We often talk things which we don't even understand. What do you mean by reality and mind-created illusions? What can you tell about something without giving it a thought? Tell me.

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #14
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
The word is not the thing Voco ... BE it ...

Then why talk of it? You are talking about something and using words to point to the thing, aren't you? Of course, the word itself is not what you are pointing to, but then what you are talking about?

max greene wrote:
We live it (the present). Talking about the present is just something that we do.

And what is the present, you still haven't answered my question.

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #15
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
What can you tell about something without giving it a thought? Tell me.

Would you expect others to tell you about your reality Voco ? You have to BE it ... why ask others ? ... walk the talk ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #16
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Would you expect others to tell you about your reality Voco ? You have to BE it ... why ask others ? ... walk the talk ...

I'm asking because you are telling things which are purely subjective which you suggest already pre-exists somewhere... I come to you and you are starting to tell me about silent mind, about meditation, about love, about compassion, about choiceless awareness, you are giving me all these unnecessary concepts, I don't need them, none of them.

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #17
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
you still haven't answered my question.

It appears that for you the question will not be answered.

max

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #18
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
It appears that for you the question will not be answered.

Why not?

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #19
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
I don't need them, none of them.

So why ask for it ?

??

Do you need entertainment Voco ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #20
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
So why ask for it ?

??

Do you need entertainment Voco ?

Isn't this forum supposed to be a place for inquiry? Or it is just about quoting K and be K alike? I'm asking you what are you talking about, I don't need all your explanations in a sense that I will not try to apply them to myself or use in any way. So far, people often find it very hard to explain what they are talking about, they don't want to admit that they don't know, that they cannot apprehend life, that all their knowledge about life is just their own attempt to understand it and it is not in any way reflects "reality" as it is.

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #21
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Isn't this forum supposed to be a place for inquiry?

Yes, however you reject anything brought to you as being useless and meaningless concepts ... so I wonder what kind of dialogue or inquiry you are 'expecting' ?

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #22
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
they don't want to admit that they don't know

Why are you making a problem of that ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #23
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Yes, however you reject anything brought to you as being useless and meaningless concepts ... so I wonder what kind of dialogue or inquiry you are 'expecting' ?

??

I'm saying they are unnecessary, I haven't said they are useless and meaningless, certainly for people who need reliance, they might be useful. But, I want to find out together with you, is everything what we know, all that field of knowledge, is it so essential for life?

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #24
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
But, I want to find out together with you, is everything what we know, all that field of knowledge, is it so essential for life?

But you already know the answer, no ? You said that you don't need all that stuff ...

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #25
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Why are you making a problem of that ?

I don't. I'm admitting that I don't know what is life, and therefore I don't know who I am. I can invent thousand of words about myself and the world, but everything will be false. One I can tell for sure that my words are not even of a size of a dust, how can they be so big, if I am so small?

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #26
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Let's say, "fear" is a concept. It is a word, a symbol for a feeling that we are not vitally in touch with. To be completely with fear, I think you must throw the word aside and observe without the word. Just an example of how the concept really gets in the way, for the idea of fear is not "fear".

mike

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #27
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
But you already know the answer, no ? You said that you don't need all that stuff ...

??

No, Jean, I don't know... I know that I don't know, that's the only thing I know. Socrates have told that already, isn't it? Well, I hope I'm not repeating him.

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #28
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Let's say, "fear" is a concept. It is a word, a symbol for a feeling that we are not vitally in touch with. To be completely with fear, I think you must throw the word aside and observe without the word. Just an example of how the concept really gets in the way, for the idea of fear is not "fear".

Yes, the word itself is a concept, but the feeling is something entirely different than description.

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #29
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 490 posts in this forum Offline

#2:

max greene wrote:
Don't we live in the present?

As I see it, “we” don’t live “in” anything. There is being, there is awareness, which are not measurable. What IS “the present”? Where IS “the present”? By the time I have called the living moment “the present”, that moment is the non-existent past. The present is measure, idea, concept, just as much as the past and future are. NO concept can lead to understanding --- of sorrow, fear, relationship, desire, compulsion, conflict, discontent, and so on.

To reduce eternity or the physical universe to a formula of “memory + awareness”, is merely thought (“thinking” as you call it), and to hypothesize that “the present is all there is”, sheds no light on the essential burning questions which arise in our being.

And still, the concept of time --- including the present --- is useful where appropriate. There is an essential place for concept in our life.

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #30
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 490 posts in this forum Offline

re: #3

Voco,

If you’re saying that concept --- idea, interpretation, hypothesis, conclusion, belief, etc. --- is all there is, I cannot argue against it.

I have already said that, for me, there is certainly concept --- which actually dominates human affairs --- but that concept is not all there is to life. There IS also such a thing as silence, silent observation, choiceless awareness, silent witnessing ---- however one may call it --- which is NOT the movement of the intellect.

If there is no such thing for you, do you think there can be any point in us talking things over?

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