Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #91
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 749 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Again, I have to wonder if this question of whether driving a car involves "thought" has any relevance whatsoever

Hello Mike. The question being debated here was, as I understand it, whether some thought is "practical" and necessary to everyday living, while other thought is "psychological". For example, thinking about the image you have built of a bird while you are looking at it. We had a difference of opinions on this. The thought required to drive a car was given as an example of practical thought and as such was relevant to the question being debated.

m christani wrote:
If it is however some ridiculous occupation of a mind concerned with trivial issues, empty foolish speculation

Mike, I think the people who come here are serious in their enquiries. I don't think it's helpful to label fellow posters as indulging in "empty foolish speculation". This creates division and suggests that you know while others do not. Nobody here has a monopoly on the truth.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #92
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 749 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
This seems very important: that thought must become aware of how it creates, as well as perpetuates the self and this can only happen in meditation, where thought is allowed to awaken to itself.

Can you say what you mean by meditation here Dan? I know you've experimented with this so I'd be interested to hear more.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #93
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Mike, I think the people who come here are serious in their enquiries. I don't think it's helpful to label fellow posters as indulging in "empty foolish speculation". This creates division and suggests that you know while others do not. Nobody here has a monopoly on the truth.

:-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #94
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I think the people who come here are serious in their enquiries. I don't think it's helpful to label fellow posters as indulging in "empty foolish speculation". This creates division and suggests that you know while others do not. Nobody here has a monopoly on the truth.

I was harsh. Some people want to meditate on whether driving involves thought, while others want to perceive psychological thought, the self in action, actually. But there is such a thing as pointless speculation, isn't there? I was just taking the point of driving a car as an example. We don't have all the time in the world, any of us. It seems that certain trains of thought just don't lead anywhere...

mike

This post was last updated by m christani Sun, 21 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #95
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1339 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Dan McDermott wrote:

This seems very important: that thought must become aware of how it creates, as well as perpetuates the self and this can only happen in meditation, where thought is allowed to awaken to itself.

Can you say what you mean by meditation here Dan? I know you've experimented with this so I'd be interested to hear more.

Hi Sean,

K. has said "where the 'self' is, the 'other' is not". I hear that and I want that 'other, because I want anything that will bring me more 'pleasure', any and everything that will inoculate me from pain and sorrow etc. That is at the core of 'me'. I want to be secure not only physically, but mentally as well. So I can't really 'do' anything that ultimately isn't in my 'self-interest. 'Meditation' clarifies, shows that. That is my situation and there is 'absolutely' nothing that I can do to change that, no 'transformation' no nothing that won't have as it's (my) self-centered motive this, desire to have this "other", this "Love", this "freedom" etc. that K. speaks about. This is the 'prison' that we have 'heard' about. It is the 'energy' revolving around an image of myself and creating a duality of a 'me' separate from my thought. So the question arises, why does thought, the brain, continue in this way when it has been shown over and over the 'pitfalls' of this arrangement? While it may have been practical, useful for our early survival,it now threatens our very survival. (The absence of Love?) So given that every 'method' has been tried and the 'self' still 'reigns' (Because the self was behind all those methods and every other possible 'struggle' that tried to bring about its ending!)

So K. has said, no method, Thought itself must become aware of itself and that is the only possibility that exists for it to end the 'self', non-violently, 'voluntarily' through 'intelligence' showing thought its 'rightful' place.

Long answer but I think 'meditation' is about the 'self', 'me' 'thought' becoming aware of itself, 'seeing' itself, with no goal other than that.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 21 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #96
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
So K. has said, no method, Thought itself must become aware of itself and that is the only possibility that exists for it to end the 'self', non-violently, 'voluntarily' . . .

Krishnamurti has also said this: "Thought cannot go beyond itself and every attempt to do so is its own frustration." (Commentaries on Living, Series 1" Chapter 62)

Thought is the self, and the self is protective of itself and will not destroy itself. Meditation aimed at improving thought (the self) is a waste of time.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Sun, 21 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #97
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 749 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
I was harsh. Some people want to meditate on whether driving involves thought, while others want to perceive psychological thought, the self in action, actually. But there is such a thing as pointless speculation, isn't there? I was just taking the point of driving a car as an example. We don't have all the time in the world, any of us. It seems that certain trains of thought just don't lead anywhere...

It seems you feel that the discussion about the car isn't really much of a train (of thought) Mike. It certainly seems to be driving Jack round the bend. Perhaps we need to get on to a higher plane of consciousness.

"Pointless speculation"? Who can say? There is a certain element of a knowing "me" passing judgement on a lesser knowing "you" which comes across when dismissing the contributions of others to a debate. One can always ignore if one feels nothing important is being said.

I seem to remember that Krishnamurti talked about a feeling of communion when discussing together. Communication with affection even, if that is possible. People exploring together on equal terms. Is this possible here?

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #98
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Thought is the self, and the self is protective of itself and will not destroy itself. Meditation aimed at improving thought (the self) is a waste of time.

Medition happens on its own, Max . It cannot be brought about.There is no improver in Medition.

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Sun, 21 Feb 2016 #99
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

meditation undertaken through the motive to better oneself is of no more significance than the desire to make more money.

max

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #100
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 749 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
meditation undertaken through the motive to better oneself is of no more significance than the desire to make more money.

Hi Max. Isn't it worthwhile to just sit still sometimes, close your eyes and listen? I wonder what your reaction to the quote from Krishnamurti below is:

Krishnamurti - "Are you watching your thoughts - how one thought pursues another thought, thought saying, ''This is a good thought, this is a bad thought''? When you go to bed at night, and when you walk, watch your thought. Just watch thought, do not correct it, and then you will learn the beginning of meditation. Now sit very quietly. Shut your eyes and see that the eyeballs do not move at all. Then watch your thoughts so that you learn. Once you begin to learn there is no end to learning."

Krishnamurti On Education Talk to Students Chapter 1

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Wed, 24 Feb 2016 #101
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Sean,

Meditation is integrated with all the things that one does. Probably there should not be a moment that is not subject to meditation. But a planned meditation is thinking and thought.

max

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Thu, 25 Feb 2016 #102
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Sean,

Meditation is integrated with all the things that one does. Probably there should not be a moment that is not subject to meditation. But a planned meditation is thinking and thought.

Another doctrine...

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