Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Time


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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #1
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5400 posts in this forum Offline

Recently,I was walking on a beautiful day in the East End of the Ojai valley. I wasn't aware of thinking about anything in particular. I walk at about the same time everyday, late afternoon. At the foot of the trail there is a ranch that is home to several mules, horses and donkeys. Everyday at about the same time a mule rips out with that incredible braying they make that sounds like an old asthmatic man trying to clear his bronchial tubes in front of a microphone.

Yesterday I realized that the mule waits at the corner of his corral which is by the driveway leading to the ranch house. The mule brays when it sees it's master coming home in a car it recognizes at a distance. Soon after the animals are fed. The mule is aware of time in it's own way. It, by god, knows when dinner time is at hand.

That got me to thinking about time. Trees, for example, register time in the growth rings of the trunk. Rocks, especially, register time. One example, fossilized rocks from a lake bottom record past seasons in the thin layers of compacted deposition called varves Varves record the seasons by showing the alternating deposition thin layers of silt washed into the lake basin by rain runoff and the deposition of leaves when they drop in the fall. The latter deposition is marked by thin black layers of carbon interspersed with lighter layers of silt or sand. Other examples are plentiful. Find your own.

Physical time keeping or measurement is ubiquitous in Nature and not at all just an invention of Man. Physically we are of time. It's when we internalized physical time, when we, mankind, invented psychological time that we took one of those "wrong turns".

I know this is somewhat out of the blue but there have been so many theories about time on this forum I thought I would add these facts as I see them about physical time.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 13 Feb 2016.

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #2
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

What is psychological and what is physical time according to you?

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #3
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5400 posts in this forum Offline

Examples: Physical time. An organism is born and eventually the organism will die.

Psychological time: The belief that in time I will be something different from what I am now.

Do you really not know the difference or are you just waiting to pounce on anything I write?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 13 Feb 2016.

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #4
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Examples: Physical time. An organism is born and eventually the organism will die.

How is physical time related to birth and death? What is birth and death, can you draw the line? Are you referring to an organism lifetime?

Jack Pine wrote:
Psychological time: The belief that in time I will be something different from what I am now.

The same question here too. What is then psychological time? There is a belief that in the future I will be someone, and as it seems to me there is no any necessity to add a psychological time here, as if psychological time would be something that exists on it's own.

Jack Pine wrote:
Do you really not know the difference or are you just waiting to pounce on anything I write?

I'm interested in what you are talking and I ask you what do you mean by time.

You see, we cannot say that something like time exists at all, it's just our concept.

This post was last updated by Voco . Sat, 13 Feb 2016.

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #5
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5400 posts in this forum Offline

Voco, tell us the truth. Are you an invention of Jean? Are you yet another of Jean's alter egos? Because the lack of intelligence of many of your responses certainly indicate a connection between you two.

Your above response to my post is absolute gibberish.

Do us both a favor and don't reply to my posts and I'll do the same for you.

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #6
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Voco, tell us the truth. Are you an invention of Jean?

No.

Jack Pine wrote:
Because the lack of intelligence of many of your responses certainly indicate a connection between you two.

Alright, if you say so. But you have not answered my questions, instead you switched to insult.

Jack Pine wrote:
Your above response to my post is absolute gibberish.

You forgot to add that it is you who thinks so. But I don't mind, if it is gibberish for you, I can live with that.

Jack Pine wrote:
Do us both a favor and don't reply to my posts and I'll do the same for you.

Right. Sorry for disturbing you.

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #7
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5400 posts in this forum Offline

Voco, your questions are obtuse, not well thought out, not worth the electronic ink it took to write them. You got it? The questions are fatuous? I already answered your questions in post# 3.

If you want to make a problem out of understanding the meaning of chronological/physical time you're on your own. It's too simple, too direct to waste anymore "time" on it.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 13 Feb 2016.

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #8
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Physical time keeping or measurement is ubiquitous in Nature and not at all just an invention of Man. Physically we are of time. It's when we internalized physical time, when we, mankind, invented psychological time that we took one of those "wrong turns".

Let's start from square one, Jack. And square one is just about the whole story.

I see "square one" as, "what is 'evolution'"? Darwin hypothesized that the present develops from the past, but don't we now realize that there never is a "past," that there is only the present? Evolution is an unfolding of the present, not a build-up from a non-existent past.

So the varves and sediments are NOW, always and only NOW, the result of an ever-unfolding present building on the present condition.

Time is the human measurement of the sequence -- the many NOW's, you might say -- that it took to make up the present condition. But of course those preceding NOWs do not exist. "Preceding" NOWs never exist.

max

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #9
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5400 posts in this forum Offline

Chronological time is in everything. Plants, animals, minerals. Chronological time, physical time, is too simple, too obvious to intellectualize over. I don't have that kind of time. I don't think anyone does. Chronological time and psychological times are very clear to me. I don't really see where it matters a whole lot to me whether anyone else understands this or not.

It's another wonderful day here in the Ojai. Blue, cloudless skies, high 80's F and I'm going to break away from this looney bin to make a cherry pie for my wife for Valentine's Day before we go walk in the mountains. Adios.

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #10
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
. . . we cannot say that something like time exists at all, it's just our concept.

Yes, this also is the way I see it. Time is a concept used for measuring the gaps in a sequence of events. Hard to see it as anything else.

max

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #11
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Blue, cloudless skies, high 80's F and I'm going to break away from this looney bin to make a cherry pie for my wife for Valentine's Day before we go walk in the mountains.

You're lucky to live in such a place and to be able to do such things, Jack.

max

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #12
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5400 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Yes, this also is the way I see it.

Neither one of you see anything. You are making a problem where none exists. If you can't get by something this simple how can you expect to understand the more subtle things K pointed out?

Krishnamurti's Notebook

Time to cover space, distance, and time to cross over the river; from here to there, time is necessary to cover that space, it may take a minute, a day or a year. This time is by the sun and by the watch, time is a means to arrive. This is fairly simple and clear. Is there a future apart from this mechanical, chronological time? Is there an arriving, is there an end for which time is necessary?

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #13
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5400 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
You're lucky to live in such a place and to be able to do such things, Jack.

Yes Max and I sincerely wish that you could enjoy this with me. Luck? No. My life did not happen by accident. Does anyone's.

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Mon, 15 Feb 2016 #14
Thumb_stringio b. teulada Portugal 495 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Voco . wrote:
we cannot say that something like time exists at all, it's just our concept

i would be curious to know how other mammals "feel" time. there are pastures at the back of the cottage here on the island. i like to observe the cows, and, apart from the time the owner comes with a bunch of whatever extra stuff they are being fed this time of the year, time seems pretty much not to exist, or stand still, for these animals.

This in no way contradicts what K said about time. In fact, if time does not exist other than as the interval between events, then it seems to me that any other form of time is psychological and an invention of man's mind.

and i have a feeling that once the human mind falls in the trap of creating time of the psychological sort, it has fallen in the trap of imagining death. and from there fear, and then all the rest.....
So, yes, Jack, it may well be the most important "wrong turn" taken by man's mind (are you assuming there were more than one ....?).

This post was last updated by b. teulada (account deleted) Mon, 15 Feb 2016.

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Mon, 15 Feb 2016 #15
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

b teulada wrote:
i have a feeling that once the human mind falls into the trap of imagining there is time (i.e. imagining that time exists, that it passes) it has fallen in the trap of imagining death. and then fear, and then all of the rest....

Exactly. That is why the understanding of time is so important.
The immeasurable present is all that is -- and ever was. There is sequence, there is evolution as the present unfolds, but it is always and forever only the present.

max

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Mon, 15 Feb 2016 #16
Thumb_stringio Brian Smith United Kingdom 212 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Voco . wrote:
You see, we cannot say that something like time exists at all, it's just our concept.

"Something like time" is "just our concept?"
If we should have a concept about something, it doesn't mean that thing doesn't exist.

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Tue, 16 Feb 2016 #17
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Brian Smith wrote:
"Something like time" is "just our concept?"
If we should have a concept about something, it doesn't mean that thing doesn't exist.

Something like time cannot be proven, because it's not something you can verify, it is purely based on a subjective experience.

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Tue, 16 Feb 2016 #18
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 749 posts in this forum Offline

b teulada wrote:
i would be curious to know how other mammals "feel" time. there are pastures at the back of the cottage here on the island. i like to observe the cows, and, apart from the time the owner comes with a bunch of whatever extra stuff they are being fed this time of the year, time seems pretty much not to exist, or stand still, for these animals.

Scotland's national poet Robert Burns wrote about this in 1785 in his poem "To a Mouse". He wrote is Scots (referring to a mouse):

"Still thou are blest, compared wi' me!
The present only toucheth thee:"

A translation to standard English would be:

"Still you are blessed, compared with me!
The present only touches you:"

The American writer John Steinbeck took a line from this poem for the title of his book "Of Mice and Men".

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Tue, 16 Feb 2016.

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Tue, 16 Feb 2016 #19
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 477 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Recently, I was walking on a beautiful day in the East End of the Ojai valley...

Thank you for this nice post about your walks and about time.

Time really is interesting. As is how K treats it.

Perhaps surprisingly K uses division with respect to time: the physical and the psychological. How strange that K, who so often speaks against division as a process of thought giving rise to conflict, here divides time into two kinds. But actually the division is just because we use the word "time" in at least two ways, how the clock ticks and other physical changes occur versus how we think about the past, present, and future and how time feels mentally to be occurring. So what appears as division is really clarification of terms so we can communicate. The two kinds of time are related but not the same.

Physical time is interesting from the physics point of view. So many equations permit forward and backward time. Yet time travel probably will never exist. Otherwise, why don't we see time travelers from the future right now?

Psychological time is extremely important to investigate. So much of our thinking is spent doing two things: 1) replaying and rethinking the past so that we can build up the individual self and how it comes out in situations, and 2) rehearsing and planning the future, again to boost the individual self. Some quiet sitting and self knowledge can reveal just how prevalent such past and future thinking can be. Which doesn't mean these can't be useful activities sometimes. But if they never relent we miss so much beauty right now.

When we are so completely into an activity we love, when we lose ourselves totally in an activity, what happens to time? We look up at the clock afterwards and don't know where the time went. Psychologically were we in time or altogether outside of time?

Walking in Ojai timelessly, only the hills, rocks, trees. How nice, how important to have time for timelessness.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 16 Feb 2016.

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Tue, 16 Feb 2016 #20
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Physical time keeping or measurement is ubiquitous in Nature and not at all just an invention of Man. Physically we are of time. It's when we internalized physical time, when we, mankind, invented psychological time that we took one of those "wrong turns".

Wrong turn is when outer becomes inner. It is obvious. But why, is the question.

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Wed, 17 Feb 2016 #21
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Physical time is interesting from the physics point of view. So many equations permit forward and backward time.

Yes, the physicists' approach to time is interesting. So many equations seem to confirm the existence of time. Yet aren't all measurements of time actually measurements of gaps in a sequence of events?

And what are the gaps? They are a separation, obviously. But there is no separation in the reality of the present moment. I would say that the gap is psychological, that time is psychological, as there is no past or future "time." There is only the unitary present moment, ever.

We live in "the past" when we recall memory, think about and mull over memory, and so distort the natural unfolding of the present with our version of "the past."

max

This post was last updated by max greene Wed, 17 Feb 2016.

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Wed, 17 Feb 2016 #22
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 477 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
There is only the unitary present moment, ever.

Well, this goes back to your thread, Is Choice Ever Necessary?

Very curious that you assert the absolute and deny the relative. Or perhaps you might say that present awareness itself gets the non-self to the doctor appointment on time.

Poor Hyakujo's fox suffered 500 lifetimes for such heresy. But that's another religion.

Anyway, time constraints are calling me away from kinfonet.

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Wed, 17 Feb 2016 #23
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5400 posts in this forum Offline

b teulada wrote:
and i have a feeling that once the human mind falls in the trap of creating time of the psychological sort, it has fallen in the trap of imagining death. and from there fear, and then all the rest.....

It is an illusion that there is a self, a center, ego whatever name you want to label the accumulation of knowledge with is psychological time. I am the past being modified in the present and projected into the future. I believe what I am now will be better, or different in the future. This is an illusion that nearly all of us have been conditioned to accept. It, as far as I can see, a unique discovery by K which is fundamental to self discovery.

The following is an explanation of the "self" which I recently read. It is so concise and clear that it seems appropriate to repost it here.

What Is the Self?

Do we know what we mean by the self? By that, I mean the idea, the memory, the conclusion, the experience, the various forms of nameable and unnameable intentions, the conscious endeavor to be or not to be, the accumulated memory of the unconscious, the racial, the group, the individual, the clan, and the whole of it all, whether it is projected outwardly in action or projected spiritually as virtue; the striving after all this is the self. In it is included the competition, the desire to be. The whole process of that is the self; and we know actually when we are faced with it that it is an evil thing. I am using the word 'evil' intentionally, because the self is dividing: the self is self-enclosing: its activities, however noble, are separative and isolating. We know all this. We also know those extraordinary moments when the self is not there, in which there is no sense of endeavor, of effort, and which happens when there is love. Krishnamurti:
What Are You Doing with Your Life?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 17 Feb 2016.

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Wed, 17 Feb 2016 #24
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Note, Jack, that Krishnamurti calls the self "evil." And that is exactly what it is, as the self is the very essence of conflict and suffering.

This self is at the center of all of our thinking and thought. And we wonder why we are the way we are!

max

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Wed, 17 Feb 2016 #25
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5400 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
This self is at the center of all of our thinking and thought.

Not only the center but IT IS thought, as I am sure you know. Without thought, psychological thought as opposed from practical thought, there is no self.

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Wed, 17 Feb 2016 #26
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

We divide thought into psychological thought and practical thought, and so we think that we can free ourselves of the self. But there is motive and purpose in all thinking and thought, and the entity with the motive and purpose is the self.

max

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Wed, 17 Feb 2016 #27
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5400 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
We divide thought into psychological thought and practical thought, and so we think that we can free ourselves of the self.

That may be why you do it Max but this is not why I see that thought is both practical; building a house, and psychological; believing that there is a thinker separate from thought.

Why complicate thought? Thought is the expression of memory. The verbalization of memory. We need thought to function. If we had no memory we couldn't do anything. We couldn't even speak let alone do all the daily tasks required to function. I'm not going to debate it any more because it's futile.

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Wed, 17 Feb 2016 #28
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Memory and thought are not the same thing. Memory is experience encoded in the cells of the brain. Thinking is the comparison, evaluation and judging of memory.

We need memory to exist, but thinking creates thought -- the "evil" self -- which we don't need. Together with memory, we need awareness.

To tie a shoe, to build a house, memory and awareness work just fine.

max

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Wed, 17 Feb 2016 #29
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5400 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Memory and thought are not the same thing. Memory is experience encoded in the cells of the brain. Thinking is the comparison, evaluation and judging of memory.

Instead of idealizing memory and thinking and then defending what you have come to believe. Just look at it Max. No one said memory and thinking were the same thing. What K pointed out, what is so obvious, is that you cannot think unless you have something to think about. Memory is the verbalization of experience. Which is thinking. Without memory there is not thinking. If you don't remember it you can't think about it.

What I did say was that thinking is the expression of memory. The verbalization of memory. K pointed out the same thing foolishly thinking, perhaps, that any rational person would see how obvious this is and not try to twist it around and make an endless argument of it.

Why have you rejected what kishnamurti pointed about thinking.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 18 Feb 2016.

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Thu, 18 Feb 2016 #30
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 749 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Note, Jack, that Krishnamurti calls the self "evil."

Yes, it may well be "evil" Max. It seems interesting to me how many "ordinary" people who I've met and who have never heard of Krishnamurti or read many books, are so "selfless", if we can use that word. I mean, people who don't put themselves first, who think of others, are kind and generous and would never think of cheating or tricking people for their own gain. I think that's a very hopeful thing.

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