Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Thought Becoming Aware of Itself...


Displaying posts 31 - 60 of 63 in total
Fri, 12 Feb 2016 #31
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 87 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Isn't the recognition, ..... the psychological reaction of thinking?

If there is an effort in recognizing, a process of measurement, then we could attribute thought to it, otherwise it is a simple recall of image in awareness.

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Fri, 12 Feb 2016 #32
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
. . . it is a simple recall of image in awareness.

Does awareness recall image, or does awareness recall memory?

max

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Fri, 12 Feb 2016 #33
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 87 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Does awareness recall image, or does awareness recall memory?

I see both memory and image as same, both has validity only in the moment of perception and not outside it. It isn't actually a recall, it is a coming together in the event of perception.

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Fri, 12 Feb 2016 #34
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

In the moment of perception (sensing) there is no image. That is the moment of reality -- awareness and memory. Image is formed later by the brain's process of thinking about memory.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Fri, 12 Feb 2016.

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Fri, 12 Feb 2016 #35
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 87 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
In the moment of perception (sensing) there is no image.

In sensing, there is always something sensed from which the memory/image of it cannot be separated.

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Fri, 12 Feb 2016 #36
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 87 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
This 'exercise' was very 'interesting' in that it was very difficult not to go (fall?) into the 'duality' of thought with a thinker, a 'me' but simply stay with the thought...but when that did happen, to just pick it up again and try to see what ever thought was there, for itself.

Dan, if someone were to ask what you were doing at those moments, what would be your reply? As I see, if it is something you won't be doing in your normal course of living, there may not be any insight coming out of it. Maybe I am wrong.

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Fri, 12 Feb 2016 #37
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1399 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
Dan, if someone were to ask what you were doing at those moments, what would be your reply? As I see, if it is something you won't be doing in your normal course of living, there may not be any insight coming out of it. Maybe I am wrong.

I took this as an excercise to try at a certain quiet time in the day and to see where it would lead, if anywhere. It led to "insights" very quickly and what those 'insights' will lead to, I have no idea. It was interesting to read Sean's post in this regard, and now yours regarding my 'normal course of living.' I say take it as an 'excercise', a challenge,that you know nothing about: take whatever thought is in your head right now and see if you can see it, not as a you separate from it, but just 'see' it, listen to it for itself. Not in your ordinary life (that's asking too much!) but now, this moment. That's the way I took K.'s challenge to that group; dead serious...even though he said it was "fun" (and I can see that element in this also). In my 'normal course of living' the thinker,'me' IS separate from 'my' thought.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 12 Feb 2016.

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Fri, 12 Feb 2016 #38
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 87 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
K.'s challenge to that group;

It appears to me, if K's quotes can be listened to, it asks of only one thing, that whether can we go together or can you transform to see this is what I am asking of you, nothing more, nothing less. Wholeness whenever it encounters anything separate, gets a question to it as how it can be whole without the listener to which it speaks to. It can't experiment with the listener, nor can it ask to do exercises, maybe I am getting it all wrong.

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Fri, 12 Feb 2016 #39
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1399 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
maybe I am getting it all wrong.

That possibility N, exists for all of us!

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Fri, 12 Feb 2016 #40
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 87 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
That possibility N, exists for all of us!

Yes perhaps, but we are always given the moment to see the veracity of it.

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Fri, 12 Feb 2016 #41
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1399 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
Yes perhaps, but we are always given the moment to see the veracity of it.

It's great to be alive though, isn't it?

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Fri, 12 Feb 2016 #42
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 87 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
It's great to be alive though, isn't it?

This somehow reminds me about a trick a group of kids did to what they thought to be a 'knowledgeable' person; they took a living ant in their palm and closed it and asked the 'know-all' guy to say whether the ant is alive or dead, so that, anything pronounced by him could be immediately falsified either by crushing the ant or letting it free. 'Know-all' guy just said 'it is in your hands'.

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Fri, 12 Feb 2016 #43
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1399 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
'Know-all' guy just said 'it is in your hands'.

I guess it is :-)

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #44
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1399 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Perhaps we need to bring this kind of level of attention to aspects of our everyday life and observe things like thinking in such an acutely observant manner.

Yes but by trying to see if "thought can be aware of itself",(even for a moment) not 'me' aware of it, it highlights how 'stuck' our normal, everyday, conciousness is in this duality of a 'thinker', 'me' apart from the thinking that seems to go on constantly. The 'excercise' shifts the usual focus for a time and then the 'status quo' returns. One question that arises is 'why' thought is so constantly in motion? Why is it always searching, questioning, why is it rarely quiet? Is it to maintain the 'presence' of the 'self', without whom there would be 'nothing'? Is that the 'fear' that keeps it churning?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 13 Feb 2016.

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #45
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Now as you are thinking find out if that thinking can be aware of itself. Not you aware of thinking - do you understand the problem?

Thought cannot be 'aware' of itself ... only awareness can be aware ... nothing else ... and awareness is who you/we/me are ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sat, 13 Feb 2016.

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #46
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 826 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
Sean, is giving attention to details same as exhausting memory? Any effort to get into details prevents exhausting memory or in other words sustains memory/image as I see.

Hello Dan and Natarajan. I might be wrong but I think that when there is a high level of attention leading to sharp observation, thought is largely absent. This means that detail can be observed, whether we are looking at a bird, a tree or thought. We would probably all agree that thought is a serious barrier to clear observation. If we are watching something attentively, isn't thought, with all its interference, absent? Can we be attentive while thought is chattering away in our heads?

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #47
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 826 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
One question that arises is 'why' thought is so constantly in motion? Why is it always searching, questioning, why is it rarely quiet?

Hi Dan, this seems like a good question to me. It's one that I've never actually pondered.

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #48
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1399 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Dan McDermott wrote:

K: Now as you are thinking find out if that thinking can be aware of itself. Not you aware of thinking - do you understand the problem?

Jean:Thought cannot be 'aware' of itself ... only awareness can be aware ... nothing else ... and awareness is who you/we/me are ...

'Thought' is not only endlessly questioning and searching, it also is always 'defining' and 'concluding'...Can it become aware of itself doing that?

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #49
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1399 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
We would probably all agree that thought is a serious barrier to clear observation.

Well Sean, the way I hear that is thought saying that it is a "serious barrier to clear observation"...but it seems reason or logic or an intellectual understanding won't lead to its being 'quiet' when its not needed. (And here we have 'thought talking to 'thought'!) ;-)

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #50
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
... and awareness is who you/we/me are ...

Can you expand what you are saying here, Jean? Not trying to trap you, but as I see it, there is no entity with awareness.

max

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #51
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 826 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Well Sean, the way I hear that is thought saying that it is a "serious barrier to clear observation"...but it seems reason or logic or an intellectual understanding won't lead to its being 'quiet' when its not needed. (And here we have 'thought talking to 'thought'!) ;-)

Hi Dan. Yes, thought having a bit of a chat with thought :) Still, surely we can say things based on our own observations. I'd say this is different to falling into the trap, which we all do, of becoming overly intellectual in our discussions. I know Krishnamurti spoke a lot about how thought impedes observation and this seems to make a lot of sense to me as I can see this happening in my everyday life.

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Sat, 13 Feb 2016.

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #52
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Is there a difference between thought and awareness? There is no gap between perception and thought as it seems to me.

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #53
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
there is no entity with awareness.

Yes I second that Max ... awareness is in essence who (or what) we are ... can you separate yourself from awareness ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #54
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 87 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
There is no gap between perception and thought as it seems to me.

What happens when there is a perception of emotion like anger within, do we straight away proceed with thought? There needs be no gap between seeing and doing, but does 'doing' always imply thought/thinking?

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #55
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Is there a difference between thought and awareness?

Of course there is Voco ... thought needs awareness to operate but awareness does not need thought to be (awareness is primary to all manifested forms) ... it's a little bit like space and objects, objects need space to exist, but space does not need objects to be ... thought is psychological forms, awareness is formless ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #56
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
but does 'doing' always imply thought/thinking?

Yes, when there is no thought there is no 'doer' and no 'doing' ... things just happen ... are you 'doing' your heart beat ? No, heart beat just happens ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #57
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Of course there is Voco ... thought needs awareness to operate but awareness does not need thought to be (awareness is primary to all manifested forms) ... it's a little bit like space and objects, objects need space to exist, but space does not need objects to be ... thought is psychological forms, awareness is formless ...

But the very conclusion that awareness does not need thought is thought, isn't it? What can you say about awareness without thought? As long as we are conscious, we can say that we are conscious and that will be thought, not consciousness itself speaking or similar nonsense.

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #58
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
What can you say about awareness without thought?

Why do you need to 'say' anything about awareness ? Awareness does not need that ... awareness does not need thought ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #59
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Why do you need to 'say' anything about awareness ? Awareness does not need that ... awareness does not need thought ...

But you are using that word and by saying awareness does not need thought you are talking about what is awareness...

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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #60
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
But you are using that word and by saying awareness does not need thought you are talking about what is awareness...

Yes, that's the problem of thought ... not of awareness :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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