Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Have I changed


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Tue, 26 Jan 2010 #1
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Dear friends, I am not expert in English, but I want to express my view. We should ask to ourselves that why we have not been changed yet ? All discussions are mental exercise.Please ask, ask, ask thyself, why we are same after reading K. And please do not give answer from brain. They are totally useless. Answer should come from realization. So in this forum I will like to ask everyone why he has not transformed or realized the truth yet. Please do not give any philosophical answer. Just answer truly to thyself,that why I am not changed.

I don't know

This post was last updated by dhirendra singh Sun, 09 Jan 2011.

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Tue, 26 Jan 2010 #2
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

The answer to your question is a no-brainer. :)
If someone says "look at the tree", do you see the tree by analyzing the words, interpreting what they mean and coming to a conclusion so that you can explain what the words mean, or by looking at the tree?

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Tue, 26 Jan 2010 #3
Thumb_deleted_user_med daniel moru Ireland 59 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dhirendra singh wrote:
why we are same after reading K. And please donot give answer from brain.

hello dhirendra,
at first i am not an expert in english too !!
Well, i never understood some problem deeply in all my body and life by reading K, and now i see it as totally logical. I am personal here,not telling truth!... different people ,different experiences. I saw deeply into myself by instant "insights"(i am careful with that word ), insights which come out of the blue usually far away from my thoughts when it is happening, and by going too far into my own suffering when the only choice left is to stand..and look as much as it is then possible!
Nevertheless i find most of what he said , wrote, very interesting, challenging seems to be a good word too !
I have changed myself in some ways with personal " seeings " out of the blue and by luck, never by reading K,just maybe got lucky.saying that i am not someone special at all..
what i mean by change is not enlightenment, but a relief of the psychological pain of everyday life.
K is like a match to lite the fire, and i don't see how he could have done more, he has maybe reached the maximum which can be shared, he has reached a limit, then i feel i am just on my own, and to be honest it is interesting and fine.
My own deep problems have done more for me than K writings, having said that, i come back to a little reading occasionally and i think it is great to have his writings, video, more the video actually.
To leave everything said by k , buddha and myself now is necessary for me, and it comes naturally out of being fed up with all that analyzing, which seems to be necessary at first, but then has to be drop voluntarily which is OK to do when seing it doesn't go far, and leave you in the same state of mind if not worse, then you move in a different direction...by seing that and so putting aside right away what doesn't do anything deeply good for you ,well!! .....it doesn't happen everyday !!
when i mention drop , i don't mean it is totally removed , but it is possible to know the lie which is in our conclusions/opinions, all that has to start somehow, and i really don't think there is a way but plenty ways, my personal view so far.

So at some stage i can see my conclusions arising, most of them are of no interest and because i naturally doubt now, it is affecting me less..i could go on but that would not be interesting, for me the writing is more limited than the sharing in the same room.
back to your question, for me nothing changed by reading k, which i consider logical,normal. he is pointing out and challenging, like so many events in life could do, if only we had the clever and intelligently wise idea to look at it.
k writing can be a great danger too, i have been there.
so reading k changed me for the worst, my fault not his, believe me or not it was a good thing to fool myself so deep down with him..
to be honest i don't know if this is clear, i just wanted to share cause of your own questioning. was talking for myself not globally.
friendly from a corner of the round earth called Ireland...

lost in tragedy...

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Tue, 26 Jan 2010 #4
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Now we all are just repeating K's sayings. It is just against what K wanted. All thoughts are useless. Thought can't produce bliss or freedom.
Because self inquiry is very very tough thing, we choose discussion. It is easiest escape. Complete attention demands whole energy, but I am not ready for it, so I choose easy way, discussion with some heavy vocabulary, it gives a satisfication of doing some spiritual kind of things.
After reading or hearing K from a long time why I am not in condition( no word can indicate it) of K?
I am ready to answer everything, even I do not Know anything!

I don't know

This post was last updated by dhirendra singh Tue, 26 Jan 2010.

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Tue, 26 Jan 2010 #5
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Daniel,
I too feel some similiar things, but I am not free from limited 'I". I am still Mr. Dhirendra, a suffering human being. And I feel it is because of my lazy approach. I find many escape from true problem, what a trezedy it is!

I don't know

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Tue, 26 Jan 2010 #6
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dhirendra singh wrote:
I am not free from limited 'I"

:)

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Wed, 27 Jan 2010 #7
Thumb_deleted_user_med Erol B United States 39 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I agree that reading, discussing, remembering, analyzing, introspecting, concentrating, or any such activity is ineffective in transforming the mind, although that can be somewhat useful in negating previous reading, discussing, etc. This sort of mental activity has never led to any kind of change in my mind, in how my mind operated. Reading K was useful to me in that sense, in negating useless concepts. The trouble is when one starts using K to form new concepts, insidiously.

A change in the mode of operation of the mind is the kind of change we are talking about, something dynamic, not a static change at all. It is a perceptual change, a mode of the mind where there is a much higher degree of receptivity. This is something I had to start doing, to be receptive, not ponder over. It is not a mentation at all, or a form of control. But simply to pay attention to all the senses, to the body. Then the mind started changing, reordering its priorities. Then thought started taking its rightful place in life, a more modest and practical one, leaving the abstract behind.

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Wed, 27 Jan 2010 #8
Thumb_deleted_user_med daniel moru Ireland 59 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dhirendra singh wrote:
Complete attention demands whole energy, but I am not ready for it, so I choose easy way, discussion with some heavy vocabulary, it gives a satisfaction of doing some spiritual kind of things.

hello dhirendra

I am not sure any more about this whole energy thing,i mean the word energy doesn't say much to me,and why not choosing easy ways...spiritual things ,well not sure i see a meaning in that.This is my perception only and so far not A truth.....
just to share something i know, which does some good actually in my life is the knowledge of how our machine/ego/analytical brain works, a bit like knowing how a computer works. what i mean by good is that i feel much lighter, less upset, calmer etc..
it means to start somehow and somewhere, psychological pain makes the suffering so the trying to fly away from it too.
when getting up every morning and the life is heavy ,too heavy, then this is luck ,( i know it doesn't look that way at all) if one don't spend all his life lost in hyperactivity to forget the pain.
i have been there , nearly too far , the reading have done nothing, the analysis have done absolutely nothing, and this is where it is complicated because when one is lost and has not a clue really,well.???
have you ever had dreams like when the water level is increasing quickly and very soon you may drown then you wake up in fear or dreams like when you escape from something you fear ,you try hard but can't escape, so what you are escaping is still behind your back and then again you wake up in fear and sweating ???
so the tricky thing is not to run away, impossible for an analytical brain caught in its search for security and leaving in its own world which is a world of hopes and fantasies, again my view only !. this is a point where to start , one in so many points probably. it works in dreams to stop escaping, i know by experience and then you learn,you don't necessary learn big things, you learn, learning=discovering, the learning is just once then it becomes experiences stored or not in memory. stop escaping may work in day time too, it implies a little awareness of the ego/computer functioning and it seems that at that point we are alone, i was anyway..does it make sense to you ? do you see something there?, like you run but whatever is after you is still there all the time ,so you are so tired ,exhausted even...so difficult, so upsetting and on the top of that you need to earn your life, to deal with grumpy people, everyday violence,insane societies and so on...but you are afraid to let it go whatever happens, because the analytical brain /ego wants things to be steady, lasting forever and all the bullshit it is capable of doing,leaving in illusions, this is where i see the illusion in life ! There is maybe one only one choice in life from where everything takes a different direction ,which is stop the running and watch, well this is good enough for a lazy person ( i promote laziness as much as i can...) this is the point where fear prevents from stopping running, the ego/analytical brain fears consequences it doesn't know about,logical it is entering right away into the unknown,this unknown is just beyond its capacities, beyond its program cleverness, and this unknown is not necessarily a big deal.,but if you never face the unknown how will you know ? but the analytical brain which is computerize to analyze from memory cannot act onto what is not memorize.!it is limited to its own knowledge.
Is it a problem to be limited? if so why ?
like a hammer is a limited tool, it is efficient in some ways, but could a hammer have a clue about the all life ? of course not.
we usually just behave like hammers, with our limited knowledge, but the hammer wants to be the king of the entire universe..see it is pure nonsense, like our lives...again , my perception right now and so far, i would not fight for it..
well i stop now, at the beginning i was mentioning about a doubt on whole energy, well i have to say it took a good bit of energy from me to write that post, time to stop so
friendly..

lost in tragedy...

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Wed, 27 Jan 2010 #9
Thumb_deleted_user_med daniel moru Ireland 59 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Erol B. wrote:
A change in the mode of operation of the mind is the kind of change we are talking about, something dynamic, not a static change at all.

Hello Erol!

I red your post,and it speaks to me, dynamic would be a word to make your post very short, change in the mode of operation of the mind too...
have to go now..
friendly.

lost in tragedy...

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Wed, 27 Jan 2010 #10
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Does Individuality exist? Science almost proved there is not any individulity. The basic atomic particals, proton-electrone-neutrons etc and energy are same in all materials. We all are composition of of these partical and enerrgy.There is no posiibility of entering or exiting any soul, because every sperm and ovum is living cell.They are not dead thing which would become live after entering some soul. It is already live. In the single cell, zygote, mature animal or human is present.In this first single cell human's whole body, including brain, is present.Then how any idividual soul can exist? An human being starts it life from Zygote and finish with death. Though genetic continuty exists.If there is no individual,then who will be free? Who will get bliss or enlightenment? So existance of 'D' is a temporery thing, he is just part of universe? I think I am a permanent being but I am not.This Temperory existance feels seperate from other thing. This feeling is not truth but this feeling exists.Whole strugle, all the psychological social problems are because of this seperate individul feeling.If it can disappear probably all psychological problem can disapper.

I don't know

This post was last updated by dhirendra singh Wed, 27 Jan 2010.

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Wed, 27 Jan 2010 #11
Thumb_deleted_user_med Erol B United States 39 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Hi Daniel,

a word to make your post very short

Were you suggesting my previous post was already too long? Or not long enough? :)

i promote laziness as much as i can...

Yes to being lazy, or without effort. After all, we humans have big brains to get things done more efficiently, this is the heart of laziness. We are designed for it! We want to make the least effort. At least I do. And if possible, no effort at all. (At the same time, the current civilization has managed to become more efficient outwardly in some aspects, more mechanized, and yet is also making people work even longer than before. But that's another issue. Laziness is a large topic :) )

To me, physical or mental laziness is simply the reflection of the quantity of energy (or 'juice' if you prefer that term) available to the body. If I didn't sleep well, or not long enough, then I am naturally lazy to wake up and get out of bed. Or if I eat heavy and non-nutritious food, then I cannot pay attention. Or if I don't move my body enough, circulation suffers. Or, if I have spent my waking time cogitating, battling dualities. These are all wastes of energy. And then there is no energy available to perceive, let alone perceive integrally (what K called, wrongly, 'meditating'). Then all kinds of mental, and eventually physical, problems ensue.

So the question to me is really how to not waste energy on useless activities. Then the body feels good, and connected.

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Wed, 27 Jan 2010 #12
Thumb_deleted_user_med Erol B United States 39 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Hi Dhirendra,

I think I am a permanent being but I am not.This Temperory existance feels seperate from other thing. This feeling is not truth but this feeling exists.

I found that the more I was clinging to past accomplishments, or deeds, the more that feeling was there. The realization and acceptance that these accomplishments are and always will be meaningless is the end of that feeling, because one is then nothing 'special'. One can just flow.

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Wed, 27 Jan 2010 #13
Thumb_deleted_user_med daniel moru Ireland 59 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Erol B. wrote:
Were you suggesting my previous post was already too long? Or not long enough? :)

hello Erol.. neither too long nor too short, this is the central point i took from your post, so it is my view left when reading your post...English is not my first language,sometimes i don't make myself clear...at all...

Erol B. wrote:
After all, we humans have big brains to get things done more efficiently, this is the heart of laziness.

yes !!! that's what i meant....

lost in tragedy...

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Thu, 28 Jan 2010 #14
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

I have read two books of K completely, Urgency to change and last talks. The title "Urgency to change" hits my mind. We thousands of people heard or read this but not felt "Urgency to change".That is why we have not changed. We don't see any Urgency to change.

I don't know

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Thu, 28 Jan 2010 #15
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dhirendra singh wrote:
We don't see any Urgency to change.

It doesn't come from a book.

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Thu, 28 Jan 2010 #16
Thumb_295902_10150361346929121_667049120_8087939_521721644_n Angel Miolan Dominican Republic 179 posts in this forum Offline

Hi, I also has limitations writing in English. I?m sorry for this fact. About this topic I have to say, with all respect, that the urgent of change is something only each one of us can feel as and Inside. If one is the other, ass K tireless say, if the world changes when I change, true understanding of this deeply perception will create a personal need of change and lead everyone of us to transformation of the mind. Angel.

lobo de la estepa

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Thu, 28 Jan 2010 #17
Thumb_avatar Another Time United Kingdom 61 posts in this forum Offline

Well, speaking wise...

The Truth is not Something which can be realized.

/Can you bring into reality something which is not real?/

Not possible.

You can only try use reality just as reality is. /If so, you are not the source - the source /reality/ is given to you/

Or be using by reality itself./If so, you are not the destination - the destination {everything} is defined already/ through that YOU CAN'T REALIZE WHAT IS NOT YOU.

Of course, - you can ask yourself question:

Is freedom in opposition to source or destination?

And if you are clever - then you see - not quite.

Now, the easy part: inappropriate thinking doesn't lead to proper conclusion -

"why we have not been changed yet"

We are unable /most of you/ -yet - to proper thinking.

Learn TO THINK, so.

And be prepared for the most demanding things linking to thinking.


THE THINKER.

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Thu, 28 Jan 2010 #18
Thumb_deleted_user_med Erol B United States 39 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

There is no need to change when everything looks fine and rosy. And the want doesn't create the change. A want is only a superficial effort of the ego. It is only when one sees real danger, real, with the current course that one is then compelled to change. It has to look as real as the bus about to run you over, so to speak. It is not "I" who wants to change, to become "better", which never works, but rather the sense of danger creates a change. But yes, it requires seeing very clearly that continuing with the way things are is a slow form of suicide, a continuous loss of vitality. And more self-created suffering to come. So it is all based on sensitivity, to everything that's going on inside and outside.

This post was last updated by Erol B (account deleted) Thu, 28 Jan 2010.

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Fri, 29 Jan 2010 #19
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Erol B. wrote:
It is only when one sees real danger, real, with the current course that one is then compelled to change.

It indicates future, no need of change now, in future when i will see danger, change will appear? Do all answer from brain not closes door of further inquiry?

I don't know

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Fri, 29 Jan 2010 #20
Thumb_deleted_user_med Erol B United States 39 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

It indicates future, no need of change now, in future when i will see danger, change will appear? Do all answer from brain not closes door of further inquiry?

The seeing of danger is the action of change, and it is immediate.

There is no time to inquire when the bus is driving towards you. You take immediate action. But if you don't see the bus, then you won't take action.
Similarly, if in your daily life you don't see any danger, then you won't take action to change it fundamentally.

All discussions are mental exercise.


Do all answer from brain not closes door of further inquiry?

What is it you call inquiry, if not a mental exercise? Or are you experimenting with something?

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Fri, 29 Jan 2010 #21
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Erol B. wrote:
What is it you call inquiry, if not a mental exercise? Or are you experimenting with something?

I will try to claryfy, A question arises from brain that I am always in limit of brain or thought, then any answer from brain can not be answer. So issue is very simple, untill we, you or me, give answer from brain it is of no worth.Question is fact for us but answer is not fact, it is our imagination or it is someone's sayings.

I don't know

This post was last updated by dhirendra singh Fri, 29 Jan 2010.

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Fri, 29 Jan 2010 #22
Thumb_deleted_user_med Erol B United States 39 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

The problem is not with the brain, but with the limits of thoughts. The brain is a lot more than thought! A lot more. To inquire in the sense you give is to live in the moment through perception, through all the senses simultaneously, vulnerable and alert.

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Fri, 29 Jan 2010 #23
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 1128 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Erol B. wrote:
but with the limits of thoughts.

Yes, that is the key, really. To understand the limits of knowledge/information.

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Sat, 30 Jan 2010 #24
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 131 posts in this forum Offline

Erol B. wrote:
It is only when one sees real danger, real, with the current course that one is then compelled to change.

Yes Erol, you have aptly put it. Most of us don't see either the danger or in its full intensity.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Sat, 30 Jan 2010 #25
Thumb_deleted_user_med daniel moru Ireland 59 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

hello there !
in the mood to ask the question like : why would limitation be a problem ?
we dream eventually about something whole which may exist, and we are trying to deal with the question of limitation K mentioned every so often.
why the unknown/limitation would be a problem?
limitation implies maybe that there are "things" we don't know about. and so what ? Put it with a young child brain: i am a hammer and want to leave the life of a bird, then arises one problem,one out of thousands problems.
do we talk about academical knowledge or about something totally different, something always different?
then my life as a hammer is hopeless and painful.
to be a hammer may not be a problem, but the effort to reach is problem.
That's a human life, living in a romantic world, which seems reel but maybe be like a dark curtain in front of eyes.
we see that organizing food, shelter, all practical fields are necessary like a bird is going to organize a nest and providing food for the little ones.
and then what? even without knowing it,in human mind the hammer still want to be a bird, to achieve.
i don't know for yourself but so far the main thing which brings some changes in my state of mind ,of the brain, is to see the very functioning of the analytical brain/ego/self ....which is for example i will always think that my neighbor is insane which is an opinion,my opinion out of 6 billions opinions, this is my limited mind, and somehow knowing really and deeply it is a conclusion of a mind/machine self, it is only then i may not pain attention to the thought itself,i am capable to let it go like the bird flies in the sky, i see it flying and this is it.. having seen deeply the limitation of myself...which means knowing the functioning.so limitation is a problem ,is not it ?
all may start from the darkness of not having a clue to suddenly lite a candle, and candles, and leaving the mental cavern of our mechanic ego .
i don't know for you , but so far it seems that nothing can be done about this ego and its program, but just the deep knowledge of its functioning.
This is what is left for me and so far from K readings ,which were disturbing , very disturbing ,and from my own mistakes, leading life towards a hammer's life ,willing to be a bird......
K seems to be capable to broom the mind , showing its functioning, which is brilliant..then everyone starts its own flight, well ...is not that great ????
one more time ,not sure it makes sense...and as usual i don't reread,
privilege of laziness...

lost in tragedy...

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Sat, 30 Jan 2010 #26
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Erol B. wrote:
The brain is a lot more than thought! A lot more.

Again how do we know that brain has lot more than thought, Do we realised this? Is it a fact for us? For me it is not fact, So if I Repeat this answer then I am doing same thing which from years follower of differnt religions are doing from eras.
A question arising from observation has its own flame, all readymade answer are like waterfall on this flame which stops it from finding true answer.
So all beauty is in question, so let him find out its answer. Be there with all alertness with question,

I don't know

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Sat, 30 Jan 2010 #27
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

daniel moru wrote:
then everyone starts its own flight, well ...is not that great ????

It was an enjoyment reading you this time.

I don't know

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Sun, 31 Jan 2010 #28
Thumb_deleted_user_med daniel moru Ireland 59 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

hello dhirendra !

Great so...not easy for the words to make sense for others, because even the language is so ....movable..
friendly...

lost in tragedy...

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Sun, 31 Jan 2010 #29
Thumb_deleted_user_med Erol B United States 39 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Be there with all alertness with question,

Fair enough, Dhirendra. Questions are useful, up to a point, but they are still questions, are they not? : a series of words issued from doubt about past knowledge or future possibilities. Questions have their value in practical matters, but not in matters of the mind because it is still thought trying to go beyond thought, memory reformulating itself. Does this lead to the new? Does it lead to intensity of living? Can questioning even result in the complete collapse of the conceptual structure which we have built for ourselves and saps our energy?

The new is not from memory, therefore not from questioning which is born of memory. The new is not from the past, nor in the future. The new is from awareness of something which is not memory, which is happening constantly in the present moment: perception. The new is in awareness of all sensory perceptions as they happen without verbalization or expectation (both of which come from memory). The difficulty is in taking it all in, because we are used to fragment our perceptions and we are used to spending much time thinking rather than being totally aware of our perceptions, of our own body. Once we stop fragmenting perceptions, energy can gather.

For this to be a fact, one has to do it as a way of living, to perceive totally without the word, using memory sporadically as the need arises. To actually do it, or attempt to do it, not simply read about it. Then the brain can start to operate differently than just on memory.

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Sun, 31 Jan 2010 #30
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Erol B. wrote:
Questions are useful, up to a point, but they are still questions, are they not? : a series of words issued from doubt about past knowledge or future possibilities. Questions have their value in practical matters, but not in matters of the mind because it is still thought trying to go beyond thought, memory reformulating itself. Does this lead to the new?

Is it So? They are not words when they arises, When we are always ready with answers they fails. Unfortunately we have answer of all questions.
Please don't misunderstand "question" by thought, It is flame behind the thought. Though you are right that complete awareness is key.So let us be aware.

I don't know

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