Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Does reading books help to see what is?


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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #1
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day

Group Discussion 31st December, 1947 | Madras, India

If you care to analyse the question seriously, you will find definitely that you can understand and face 'what is' without reading a single book. You have got your own prejudice which translates the knowledge that you gather from books; and no book can point out to you that you are prejudiced nor can it teach you how to love. You can only discover when the mind is fresh without any burden of book knowledge.

So many people on this forum, John Perkins, Jean and others keep wanting to drag onto this forum what they have read in books about life and spirituality, philosophy, psychology and quotes from hustlers like Tolle and countless others. As I have written before all this does is cloud your perception of what is. It's entertainment at best. If you want to read endless books that's your business. But why bring it here where it is obviously inappropriate?

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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #2
Thumb_stringio Katy Alias ... United Kingdom 164 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
So many people on this forum, John Perkins, Jean and others keep wanting to drag onto this forum what they have read in books about life and spirituality, philosophy, psychology and quotes from hustlers like Tolle and countless others. As I have written before all this does is cloud your perception of what is. It's entertainment at best. If you want to read endless books that's your business. But why bring it here where it is obviously inappropriate?

Yes, Jack...seeing this with you...so many quotes from others' books and/or bibles can also be conversation - killers.

There's also no 'actuality' or freedom from the 'known' or from the canon of authority and so on - and/or being with 'what is' as you've stated in that, is there ?

This said, I do sometimes join in but not so much. Sometimes I post quotes from K - however rarely - and other times a song lyric or two says whatever it is better than I can ( depending on the subject).

This post was last updated by Katy Alias ... (account deleted) Wed, 04 Mar 2015.

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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #3
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

One of the strange things is how much we trust the written word, above even the spoken word. We seem to assume that because someone has taken the trouble to write a thing down and produce a book, there must be added value to that form of knowledge.

I mean, we can talk about the problem of 'knowledge,' sui generis, because the whole field of taking the mental picture as the thing it is supposed to represent, whether that be in image, feeling, word, idea or gesture, has become an enormous problem for us. Images, in whatever form, have taken on great emotional weight. But this particular form, the script, has assumed a greater authority than all the rest.

It may be due to a specific history - for instance, the bible or whatever holy script, is the word of God, and treated as sacred, whether the Torah, the Quran, the Buddhist and Vedic tracts or the Gospels. I recall being told that the ten commandments had been inscribed, by God him/herself, in stone and the impression that made on my infant mind. The word becomes solid, immutable, fixed, Truth.

That's all loosened up somewhat, in the computer age. One can find multiple sources of information and, to some extent, make one's own mind up, but it's all still 'knowledge' in one form or another. I'm not against 'knowledge' per se, but we are not trained to doubt, to inquire and to check. Our minds have been accustomed to skate, continuously, on the surface of that knowledge. This has powerful implications.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

This post was last updated by Pavil Davidov (account deleted) Wed, 04 Mar 2015.

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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #4
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

This too is partly why I can hardly read K's books anymore, usually only as a reference, when at the beginnning I read him so voraciously. When you begin to be able to see 'what is' in yourself, you don't need to read so much instruction. I'm not counting the occasional book for enjoyment, Hemingway etc.

The thing for me K offers, though, at least in potential, is 'short-cuts' ("the perceiver is the perceived"), something I would not have thought of. Though I hardly read him these days, he is still a teacher, in the right sense of the word, showing only how to look at yourself. 'If you don't need the mirror, break it'.

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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #5
Thumb_stringio Katy Alias ... United Kingdom 164 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Thanks for the laugh, Ken...I liked the one with the cat but you've deleted it...never mind.

My copy of 'The Awakening of Intelligence' wasn't put together so intelligently because about a third of the pages are upside down...not joking !:)

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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #6
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

At a Florida infants school on the morning of 9-11

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #7
Thumb_stringio Katy Alias ... United Kingdom 164 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

!:)

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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #8
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 749 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack,

m:Yes, perception or understanding holistically, is something in which there is no word/thought, so no book needed either.

Jack:So many people on this forum, John Perkins, Jean and others keep wanting to drag onto this forum what they have read in books about life and spirituality, philosophy, psychology and quotes from hustlers like Tolle and countless others. As I have written before all this does is cloud your perception of what is. It's entertainment at best. If you want to read endless books that's your business. But why bring it here where it is obviously inappropriate?

mina: But this happens also when reading K's books WITHOUT perception (which is not thought) of your own into what he is pointing to. Then the freshness of the mind is gone already, replaced by knowledge/interpretation of K's words. It makes no difference which books are in question. When read from knowledge, they inevitably turn into more knowledge for the reader. When not, (whatever the book), then things are different.

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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #9
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Does reading books help to see what is?

This is what the African islamists extremists from 'Boko Haram' say ... literally 'boko haram' means 'books are evil' ... is Jack 'radicalizing' now ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #10
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
This is what the African islamists extremists from 'Boko Haram' say ... literally 'boko haram' means 'books are evil' ... is Jack 'radicalizing' now ?

If I need to learn a new skill-set, such as wood working for instance, what is the problem getting the info from books? K's comment on book learning has to do with 'spiritual" matters, nest pas?

Stuff happens

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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #11
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
This is what the African islamists extremists from 'Boko Haram' say ... literally 'boko haram' means 'books are evil' ... is Jack 'radicalizing' now ?

One is becoming somebody when one rails against one group (islam) for the benefit of anouther group (women).

Stuff happens

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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #12
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
literally 'boko haram' means 'books are evil'

'Boko Haram' actually means "Western education is forbidden" but I guess you translated 'Boko' for 'book' and made up the rest :-)

Jean Gatti wrote:
is Jack 'radicalizing' now ?

No, it's just you becoming more superficial.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #13
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
One is becoming somebody when one rails against one group (islam) for the benefit of anouther group (women).

LMFAO

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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #14
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
mina: But this happens also when reading K's books WITHOUT perception

So Mina you're saying you can only read what K said if you already have perception? What is perception?

Mina Martini wrote:
Then the freshness of the mind is gone already, replaced by knowledge/interpretation of K's words.

Most of us, I would guess, first read or heard K without a fresh mind, thoughtless understanding and all the other ideals you want to bring into this. Personally, I had never heard of a lot of things K was talking about before I came upon a book by him back in the early '70's.

You seem to be saying that a person has to be transformed (or whatever) before reading K. This, of course, is complete nonsense.

Mina Martini wrote:
It makes no difference which books are in question.

It makes a tremendous difference which book you read. Many who read K or went to see him speak or listen to him are able to discern that there is something very unique, different in what K was pointing out. Mina, I am somewhat taken aback that you were unable to appreciate that.

Mina Martini wrote:
When read from knowledge, they inevitably turn into more knowledge for the reader. When not, (whatever the book), then things are different.

Are you suggesting that when you read what I wrote and commented on it it wasn't from knowledge? Are you saying there is any idea, comment, edict, proclamation that you have made on this forum that wasn't from knowledge?

Mina, I think you are really operating under the delusion that what you write as a result of your thinking is some how not thinking and not knowledge. I don't accept that and I question your continued obsession, if I may use that word, to convince us otherwise.

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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #15
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Pavil Davidov wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:
literally 'boko haram' means 'books are evil'

'Boko Haram' actually means "Western education is forbidden" but I guess you translated 'Boko' for 'book' and made up the rest :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boko_Haram

The name "Boko Haram" is usually translated as "Western education is forbidden". Haram is from the Arabic 'haram' = "forbidden"; and the Hausa word boko [the first vowel is long, the second pronounced in a low tone], originally meaning "fake" but has come to mean[28] and is widely translated as "Western education" and thought to possibly be a corruption of the English word "book".

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Wed, 04 Mar 2015.

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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #16
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Jean I don't know if you were able to discern, with your rapier-like wit, that K was being quoted as having said books are an impediment. I agreed with that quote but it was Krishnamurti who was being quoted. Do you understand?

So Jean you are saying that K and Boko Haram are the same? Brilliant! Why were the rest of us unable to see the similarity, the sameness, between Krishnamurti and a bunch of murderous, fanatical Islamic terrorists and thugs (Boko Haram)?

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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #17
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
Can anyone tell me what you call a person who acts solely from the "id" part of the brain? Jean?

Were you asking Jean or merely answering your own question? :-)

Hey, actually Freud never used the words 'id' or 'ego.' Those Latin words crept in through wrong translations. He used instead "the I" and "the it."

Freud was staunch with the idea of refusing the use of 'technical' or imported words from Latin and Greek to sound more 'educated.' His translators were not so coy.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

This post was last updated by Pavil Davidov (account deleted) Wed, 04 Mar 2015.

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Wed, 04 Mar 2015 #18
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
So Jean you are saying that K and Boko Haram are the same?

They both believe in the 'ending of thought' . . . though their methods differ :-)

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Thu, 05 Mar 2015 #19
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
So Jean you are saying that K and Boko Haram are the same?

No I say that Jack and Boko Haram appear to share the same ideology about books ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Thu, 05 Mar 2015.

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Thu, 05 Mar 2015 #20
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Pavil Davidov wrote:
'Boko Haram' actually means "Western education is forbidden"

That's sort of interesting. Western education is obviously ruining the world and has the capability to destroy it. It is eating into cultures, like a caterpillar on a leaf, and spreading everywhere. And then there's the desperate fundamentalist opponents, trying to stem this tide, this infiltration, through terror and murder, trying to remain insulate in a world that won't allow this. Terror becomes their only weapon.

I wonder about Islam itself, whether it is innately archaic, and whether Christianity and Judaism are the same. That is, are all religions backward-looking? Or, are religions waiting for the end-of-days, patiently or not?

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Thu, 05 Mar 2015 #21
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

mike c wrote:
And then there's the desperate fundamentalist opponents, trying to stem this tide, this infiltration, through terror and murder, trying to remain insulate in a world that won't allow this. Terror becomes their only weapon.

Mike, All ideologies are ultimately 'weapons of war' ...

K101

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 05 Mar 2015 #22
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

mike c wrote:
I wonder about Islam itself, whether it is innately archaic

Read the book called Quran and see by yourself ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 05 Mar 2015 #23
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

mike c wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:
mike c wrote:
I wonder about Islam itself, whether it is innately archaic

Read the book called Quran and see by yourself ...

Looking at the world I wonder if the Quran has anything to do with Islam. "Submission to the will of God"? Must be a strange God. As is the Christian God.

'Submission to the will of God' means ... surrender to 'what is' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 05 Mar 2015 #24
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

mike c wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:
'Submission to the will of God' means ... surrender to 'what is' ...

Yes.. I don't see it in the Islamic world, though, at least with the crazies. It's a nice idea though.

As K said jokingly, the devil lies in the organization of nice ideas (truth) ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 05 Mar 2015 #25
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Jack, ( nice phonetic site sound, by the way ) you wrote:

“ So Jean you are saying that K and Boko Haram are the same? Brilliant!
Why were the rest of us unable to see the similarity, the sameness, between Krishnamurti and a bunch of murderous, fanatical Islamic terrorists and thugs (Boko Haram)? “

Wim:
Is there not a difference in doing things and talking things over ?

If K. words get the same doing as this guys are doing then there’s a similarity.
On the other hand, if the words are seeing in the “ Truth “ perception there’s no greater difference, is there ?

If a fundamentalist is seriously looking to the traffic board “ STOP “, the problem is solved,
He does what he’s told to do or, if he’s going on, he isn’t longer a fundamentalist for 100 %.

So living is depending on interpretation of words and signs.
Words by themselves means nothing.

Back from the shadow poisoned with the horrors seen in the dark will seldom recover,
may be, may be, if seeing the full light of the meaning.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Thu, 05 Mar 2015 #26
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
No I say that Jack and Boko Haram appear to share the same ideology about books ...

Jean, why to you insist on playing the fool? Since it is obvious you have nothing intelligent to say and it is also obvious that you only intend to incite, instigate, harass and provoke I am asking you to stay the hell off this thread and not post on any other thread I start. You are incapable of any intelligent response with your closed mind. Have I made myself clear?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 05 Mar 2015.

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Thu, 05 Mar 2015 #27
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

The main issue on this thread is that Krishnamurti pointed out, repeatedly, that knowledge, through books or from wherever is a block, an impediment to seeing, to understanding oneself. K pointed out the obvious that further conditioning, which is what you get from reading books, is not going to help you understand or end your conditioning. I'm only quoting K although it is clear to me what K is saying.

But because some of you can't accept that fact and can't end your dependency of seeking guidance from others you try to find ways to rationalize what K is saying. You try to make exceptions for yourself because you are afraid to let go of your authorities.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 05 Mar 2015.

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Thu, 05 Mar 2015 #28
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:

Pavil Davidov wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:
literally 'boko haram' means 'books are evil'

'Boko Haram' actually means "Western education is forbidden" but I guess you translated 'Boko' for 'book' and made up the rest :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boko_Haram

The name "Boko Haram" is usually translated as "Western education is forbidden". Haram is from the Arabic 'haram' = "forbidden"; and the Hausa word boko [the first vowel is long, the second pronounced in a low tone], originally meaning "fake" but has come to mean[28] and is widely translated as "Western education" and thought to possibly be a corruption of the English word "book".

Right. Thanks for admitting your mistake. You had said "literally 'boko haram' means 'books are evil'" whereas, as you point out through Wiki, it literally means, "Fake forbidden" and in actuality is taken as meaning "Western education is forbidden" implying that what is called 'Western' is fake. Of course it does not mean the 'book' is fake, because the Islamists are themselves "Peoples of the book," the book being, the Quran (which John Perkins declared identical to the teaching of K).

I caution you and others, Jean, not to use words such as 'literally' unless you literally mean them.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Fri, 06 Mar 2015 #29
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

The question was "Does reading books help to see what is?"

In my humble opinion I would say that this depends on the book and the reader. If by reading the book we simply add another layer to our past experience and we experience the present through the eyes of the past, then the reading will probably not help us to see "what is".

I suppose the question is really if we can experience the present without the filter of past experience influencing and distorting our seeing. Am I writing this message from past knowledge or am I free from it? Are you reading this message with new eyes or is the past coming in saying "what nonsense is this guy coming out with now?".

These are my thoughts, if one can use that word, on this interesting quetion.

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Fri, 06 Mar 2015 #30
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I would say that this depends on the book and the reader. If by reading the book we simply add another layer to our past experience and we experience the present through the eyes of the past, then the reading will probably not help us to see "what is".

I don't think you have understood what K meant about reading books. Maybe if you read the quotes again or even the whole text from which they came? Of course K wasn't taking about reading entertainment books which he did himself. Mystery stories.

It seems to me he was referring to books a person reads to find out about themselves. These books are a block to seeing what is because they add to the load of conditioning we are already which filters the present through the past. When you are greed, desire, hate, jealousy, etc it has to be understood in the present as it is occurring. Not later when it is only a memory, an image. How is reading a book going to help that seeing?

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