Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The teaching of K died with him........


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Mon, 23 Feb 2015 #1
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1913 posts in this forum Offline

That last recorded statement made by K about no-one understanding (often quoted on here, so I will not repeat it again) was no accident. K knew that the teaching would die with him - and it has.

All the K discussion and 'dialogue' groups occurring around the world, the internet forums like this one and others we have probably all visited - all that happens there (and here) is that ideas are regurgitated, argued about, made-over, integrated, attacked, and occasionally agreed upon.

Would-be 'enlightened' ones rise up to convince each other that they are 'transformed' and that their rose-coloured glasses fit really well.

The disenchanted ones turn up to denigrate K, and to blame him for not succeeding (in their estimation).

And all for what! Nothing changes. The theories continue. 'Dialogue' has become a religious sacrament.

And the teaching of K is dead - it will remain so. It can only live IF LIVED! All else is folly.

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Mon, 23 Feb 2015 #2
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1331 posts in this forum Offline

How can one agree and disagree on this at the same time?

“ Nothing has changed, insight NOW is changing EVERYTHING forever ”.

This cryptic description explained would create a tsunami of words and everybody had their own interpretation on ‘IT’.
So how to begin? Words like: ‘In the beginning’ will immediately suggest a new religion.
Others words like: ‘TRUTH is a pathless land ’ and/or ‘ I’m not who you think I’m’ will immediately suggest ‘Oh, a K. copy cat’.
And still words are the only thing we have along with living our lives.

So using a total different approach with a poem like description about what’s going on would still be partly, because of it’s form in a poem. But even then we could say ‘Truth’ can’t be expressed, communicated in one story or poem, even one live seems too short, looking to Krishnamurti.
He spend more than 60 years doing it and I’m already at that age so knowing that I’ll fail I can’t do anything else.
But you have to take into account all the traces of my existence already left behind. (Profile, interview and other postings)

Once sitting on the banks along a river, under a clear cloudless sky looking on the water, seeing the sun playing with the water or may be the water is playing with the sun, I don’t know, something is catching the eyes. Those twinkling’s stars trying to tell me everything. Zooming “I” disappearing in one of those stars and insight gives me everything.

My son’s voice awakenings me: “Dad, what was that song mum likes to hear?”
“I did it my way from Frank Sinatra” I said, thinking about a song from Katie Melua about, no not about this 6 billion people, that was also a nice ending line, that other song, what were the words ? something like peace by peace I let you go of you, yes that’s it.
Tears rolling over my skin and he asked,: “Are you sad, now we’ve lost everything?
“No, we still have each other, It’s nothing, I was remembering something else.”

It’s still a beautiful world, isn’t it?

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Mon, 23 Feb 2015.

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Mon, 23 Feb 2015 #3
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 749 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dear Patricia,

'And the teaching of K is dead - it will remain so. It can only live IF LIVED!

Mina: Yes, the teaching (life) can only be lived. Absolutely so. When this is no theory, not one more concept, but lived as an actuality, how can one say that 'the teaching is dead'. Then that is not true. Then everything is alive and that is the teaching.

(by the 'teaching' one does not mean thought/past, anything dead, the 'folly' you describe, of course)

This post was last updated by Mina Martini (account deleted) Mon, 23 Feb 2015.

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Mon, 23 Feb 2015 #4
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 749 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia:And the teaching of K is dead - it will remain so. It can only live IF LIVED!

Jean:Therefore K's teaching is ALIVE ... and it happens here and now ...

:-)

Mina: Yes Jean, very well put.

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Mon, 23 Feb 2015 #5
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 749 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dear Wim

'It’s still a beautiful world, isn’t it?'

Mina: Yes, the world is what we are...as much as there is beauty within us, that much the world is still beautiful...:-)

Love

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Mon, 23 Feb 2015 #6
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1165 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
K knew that the teaching would die with him - and it has.

We're doomed! Run to the hills!

This post was last updated by dave h Mon, 23 Feb 2015.

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Mon, 23 Feb 2015 #7
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1331 posts in this forum Offline

Here i'm back again ( I warned you it's a tsunami !!!).

It seems to me in this whole forum something is missing.
I don’t know what or who or why?
Is it that I have to build knowledge or skill or vocabulary or is it lack of passion ?
I still have the passion to find out initiated by other clear minds, or is that something I did already have in my genes?
Or Is it that this forum is a hiding place for reality, talking about nothing, meaning everything?
Or is it the other way around talking about everything meaning nothing.?
It can also be something Totally different.
A lot of the avatars are behind a drawing and even if there is a photo, are they for real?
Even in the text you find evidence of aliases or are this aliens?

I’m lost here, it’s like puppets on wireless string with this internet, “I”clouds, smartphones and what all.
The tables of stones from Mozes are transformed in tablets from apple, sony or samsung or whatever.
Okay they are giving information in motion, but what’s the essence ?
So the words are going round and round, like the world and the universes.
There’s nothing to hold on.
It’s like sitting in the cave of plato, but even the shadow’s are gone there without the light blocked from all this information from the “I”clouds.
What for heaven sake are we doing?
Am I crazy or Am I living in a world full of lunatics?

Or is this just seeing with a clear mind?

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Mon, 23 Feb 2015.

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Mon, 23 Feb 2015 #8
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:

K knew that the teaching would die with him - and it has.

I have to disagree, Patricia. Completely. Not that it's alive here, but- i quoted this on John's Dialogue:

K spoke about his vision for a study center in 1984:

"They must last for a thousand years, unpolluted, like a river that has the capacity to cleanse itself; which means no authority whatsoever for the inhabitants. And the teaching in themselves have the authority of truth."

-A Vision of the Sacred, Sunanda Patwardhan

It is clear the teaching was meant to endure.

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Mon, 23 Feb 2015 #9
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1331 posts in this forum Offline

there once was a lunatic
fishing in a empty bucket
a professor came by, his therapist asking: " And are you catching something ?

' You're crazy ' I said ' in an empty bucket ? There is even a WHOLE in it !!!'

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 24 Feb 2015.

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Mon, 23 Feb 2015 #10
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1352 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Would-be 'enlightened' ones rise up to convince each other that they are 'transformed' and that their rose-coloured glasses fit really well.

The disenchanted ones turn up to denigrate K, and to blame him for not succeeding (in their estimation).

And all for what! Nothing changes. The theories continue. 'Dialogue' has become a religious sacrament.

And the teaching of K is dead - it will remain so. It can only live IF LIVED! All else is folly.

Here's my 'take' on K.'s teaching : Our brain's have created (inherited?) a 'barrier' between itself and the rest of the world. It's selective i.e, it lets in flattery and (tries) to keep out insult. It's a mechanism to let one 'get along' in a rather brutal world. It is a 'protection'.He says that it's not 'necessary' and it's 'divisive'(and often deadly). Ok, so let's get rid of it...How?...wrong question he says because any 'method' will be a way to make this 'barrier' even stronger. See it, K says, look at it. Don't run from it. Don't name it. And to the degree that one has these moments of 'remembering oneself', 'you' see yourself.(and that is a sort of 'miracle') So... patience.

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Mon, 23 Feb 2015 #11
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1331 posts in this forum Offline

Responding McDermott: “ Why waiting, for what ? There’s nothing to waiting for !! “

For me playing with the 26 letters from the alphabet, together with the reading signs and space is altogether fun.

The space between the lines and behind the created words is very special.

This contains insight into meaning depending on interpretation from the reader/writer using thought, thinking and or focus.

For example:
Take the letters in this sequence “ a, l, o, n, e “ you create the word “ alone “,
Which is an abstract/metaphor for something different by each interpretation depending on insight and/or thought. ( Korsybski/Krishnamurti/David Bohm and may be others)
Take a break in the middle ( space) and put the letter ‘l’ in to balance the two words, then there are two words, which are abstracts/metaphors something etc. etc ( see line before ).
Put those three words on one line with an equal sine and you get:

Alone = All One.

The combination/structure seems ridicules, but have meaning for some of us by our interpretation etc.

So the content of the meaning seems to point to something or nothing.

Insight in the nothing/something will tell you everything.
You may negate this, call it rubbish or seeing ‘IT’.

So what have I written: Nothing or Something ?

A conclusion creates THOUGHT, which is something,
so NOTHING contains TRUTH.

Pure Logic, or not ?

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Mon, 23 Feb 2015.

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Mon, 23 Feb 2015 #12
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
K knew that the teaching would die with him - and it has.

I would suggest that the things K pointed out, existed and had been pointed to, before he was born. Nothing new under the sun. If they existed before he was born, surely they exist (the things he pointed out) after death. I would suggest further that there is no such thing as "K's teaching".

Stuff happens

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Mon, 23 Feb 2015 #13
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

randall merryman wrote:
I would suggest that the things K pointed out, existed and had been pointed to, before he was born. Nothing new under the sun. If they existed before he was born, surely they exist (the things he pointed out) after death. I would suggest further that there is no such thing as "K's teaching".

Right. The Upanishads, the Buddha's teaching- they lasted centuries. The problem with them is that they were, at least with Buddhism, not written down at the time of his life. With K we have the real documents, recordings, videos all recorded. They may last untainted for centuries-

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Mon, 23 Feb 2015 #14
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

mike c wrote:
They may last untainted for centuries-

Or, until misinterperated when read/comprehended by the human mind, which ever comes first.

Stuff happens

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Mon, 23 Feb 2015 #15
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1331 posts in this forum Offline

On Randall Merrymann suggestion:
' I would suggest further that there is no such thing as "K's teaching".'

Again You're right and wrong.
For those without " Insight ", "K's teaching" still exist and can look like real and alive.
Feeding there interpretation with thought.

'INSIGHT ' however distroys identity also that from 'K' and his teachings,
otherwise it can't be NEW/NOW.

I've just seen ' Beautifull Mind '. According to my wife we saw before, I didn't remember one single shot or dialogue, but NOW I remember dialogues at the end of the film, who could say us something about Real and Fiction in the mind.

Again depending on interpretation etc etc

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 23 Feb 2015 #16
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1913 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
I would suggest that the things K pointed out, existed and had been pointed to, before he was born.

Yes Randall. The disorder was/is always there/here.

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Tue, 24 Feb 2015 #17
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1352 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Responding McDermott: “ Why waiting, for what ? There’s nothing to waiting for !! “

Thanks W., I'll take that under advisement.

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Tue, 24 Feb 2015 #18
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1913 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
See it, K says, look at it. Don't run from it. Don't name it.

True. But it is deeper than that Dan. The disorder is entrenched over thousands of years.

K pointed to that disorder, and all people want to find in what he pointed out is a way to escape.

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Tue, 24 Feb 2015 #19
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1352 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Dan McDermott wrote:

See it, K says, look at it. Don't run from it. Don't name it.

P:True.
But it is deeper than that Dan. The disorder is entrenched over thousands of years.

K pointed to that disorder, and all people want to find in what he pointed out is a way to escape.

D:How is it a "way to escape"?

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Tue, 24 Feb 2015 #20
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1913 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
D:How is it a "way to escape"?

I am so happy you asked that Dan.

Escape by way of the self becoming a better, happier, more contented, more peaceful, more enlightened self - which is no longer called 'a self', but quite clearly IS.

So the inquiry never rises above the personal - never moves into the general, let alone the universal.

It is so evident on here: the 'personal' protesting its enlightened state, but demonstrating no interest whatever - or responsibility - in the general state of humankind, or in the deep disorder that permeates humanity. No interest in even understanding that disorder. Just a personal - albeit deluded - escape from it.

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Tue, 24 Feb 2015 #21
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1913 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
I would suggest further that there is no such thing as "K's teaching".

Quite clearly Randall - there IS such a thing as K's teaching.

K's teaching is the total negation of the human consciousness.

What is the ACTION of that?

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Tue, 24 Feb 2015 #22
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
K's teaching is the total negation of the human consciousness.

What is the ACTION of that?

Insight?

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Tue, 24 Feb 2015 #23
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1913 posts in this forum Offline

mike c wrote:
Insight?

We have to be careful here Mike. 'Insight' is a word. What is the ACTION of negation of human consciousness?

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Tue, 24 Feb 2015 #24
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
We have to be careful here Mike. 'Insight' is a word. What is the ACTION of negation of human consciousness?

Can one do anything? Anything one does is from 'me'. Observation, insight, may be of a different order. Can one negate? Or just passively observe? What is insight? What is learning about the self? You see what I'm saying? Can one actually negate? I don't know.

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Tue, 24 Feb 2015 #25
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
K's teaching is the total negation of the human consciousness.

Bravo! Have you encapsulated the mans effort over 60 years, in one sentance?

Stuff happens

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Tue, 24 Feb 2015 #26
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

mike c wrote:
Can one actually negate? I don't know.

Yes quite. Anyone with the first hand relationship with/to the action of "negation", please tell us all about it.

Stuff happens

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Tue, 24 Feb 2015 #27
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1331 posts in this forum Offline

This morning I woke up and had only one to do list:


  1. Create a spaceline between the joke and your reaction in the note about the lunatic. ( I’ve already done that )

  2. Give a very, very short description of the movie.

  3. Describe what you’re seeing NOW

  4. Put your garbage outside because it’s Tuesday the nightman is coming along

  5. Prepare your food for midday.

Point 2 and 3 you’re reading what I’m busy with.

The movie is about a sick man, who didn’t knew and when he accepted his sickness, deals with the problem by negating his imaginative world and lived in reality, knowing his sickness with the help of “LOVE”. ( I hope this is short enough ).

One wonders if the moviemakers read K. or were doing his Teaching.
All this worlds seems to have no borderlines.
Is this proof of the statement: Truth is a pathless land (worlds) ?

There are still only 26 letters and some space to communicate.
I almost forgot to say together with online and databases!!

A lot of differences and similarities and nothing to hold on.

While I’m collecting my paper trail together, this felt out.
In putting it on an empty database, it’s save to give it with the night man.

Once I travelled along the borders of the ‘I ‘less land.
although I saw the beauty, I could not reach it.
although I heard the sound, I could not reach it.
although I smelled the flavor, I could not reach it.
although I felt the energy, I could not reach it.

I’ve tried everything to pass the border but didn’t succeed.
So I wondered if such things were there at all.
If there were no borders, what was it
that I saw, heard, smelled and felt?
What was it that I searched for?

Was I creating, hallucinating, imagining ?

Suddenly the ‘I’ land vanished
There was nature, the immense beauty
from the sunshine and here colors,
from the sound of the birds and the wind,
from the smell of wintertime.

And this gentle sense of Being.

I’m almost done with my to do list.
The rest of it I have to do offline you see. See you.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 24 Feb 2015.

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Tue, 24 Feb 2015 #28
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam Wrote : I still have the passion to find out initiated by other clear minds, or is that something I did already have in my genes?
Or Is it that this forum is a hiding place for reality, talking about nothing, meaning everything?
Or is it the other way around talking about everything meaning nothing.?
It can also be something Totally different.
A lot of the avatars are behind a drawing and even if there is a photo, are they for real?
Even in the text you find evidence of aliases or are this aliens?

Hi Wim

Very true assessment . But then this is all what we are and what we have, isn't it ? So we need to know how to deal with what we have and still go about our ways , that's how is seen here .

And your post #2 sounds quite touchy especially the last part .

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Tue, 24 Feb 2015 #29
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 774 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
All the K discussion and 'dialogue' groups occurring around the world, the internet forums like this one and others we have probably all visited - all that happens there (and here) is that ideas are regurgitated, argued about, made-over, integrated, attacked, and occasionally agreed upon.

I get the impression that quite a few people who visit forums like this one find them disappointing.

Krishnamuri wrote "We are the world. The world is you and me, the world is not separate from you and me. We have created this world - the world of violence, the world of wars, the world of religious divisions, sex, anxieties, the utter lack of communication with each other, with no sense of compassion, consideration for another."

Is there a "lack of communication with each other, with no sense of compassion, consideration for another" on this forum? If so, should we find this surprising? Or would it be reasonable to expect considration, compassion and communication here?

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Tue, 24 Feb 2015 #30
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Or would it be reasonable to expect considration, compassion and communication here?

Well this place is not different from any other place ... egos at work all around ... what did you expect ?

??

Better stick to facts and not build expectations ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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