Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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For the thinker only thinkers exist


Displaying posts 61 - 79 of 79 in total
Fri, 20 Feb 2015 #61
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

mike c wrote:
Usually we think the opposite, that the unconscious is the slow, patient, abiding slow change that alters us daily (or nightly) with the dim digestions of experience.

I don't know if we say that, but OK. Yes, in some respect the opposite is true. Thoughts change rapidly while unconscious personality traits tend to be more abiding. Thoughts are very superficial. The rim of a wheel moves faster than the hub yet both turn in the same time. Imagine, however, the rapid movement of the ball-bearings within that hub. I'm not referring to the movement of the hub itself but to the movement within it, which is non-linear.

I'm referring to the process of conscious 'thinking' as against the rapidity of non-linear association which underlies it.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Fri, 20 Feb 2015 #62
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

mike c wrote:
I wonder what you think of contemplation though, or (and i hate to use the word) 'meditation'? The mind is quietened, stilled. Awareness is greater. I'm just fishing around. Is the unconscious then brought in line with the conscious?

If the mind is contemplating something it is not still . . . there may be concentrated movement at one point but comparative stillness in another. I don't see stillness and contemplation as either synonymous or antithetic.

If the mind as a whole is still, however, I don't see contemplation as taking place.

A mind that is riven with confusion cannot be still on its own accord, though it may be made still (stunned), temporarily, by external events. Our minds, it seems, are like that.

I think the confused mind may slip into certain states, including various states of dissociation, which appear or are experienced as 'stillness.' That is a very complex matter to discuss.

Oliver Sachs wrote about one case of a young man in an ashram who they all thought was turning into a Buddha. He sat endlessly throughout the days, cross-legged with his eyes turned up so only the whites were showing. They later found he had a brain tumor the size of a grapefruit.

Repetitive chanting has been known to turn people psychotic.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Fri, 20 Feb 2015 #63
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Pavil Davidov wrote (post 57):
The mind fools itself into thinking it acts freshly, newly, to the extent it is unaware and ignorant of the fact of its own underpinnings. It believes there is an independent 'respondent' living in the now.

Isn't "the present" a reality? But . . . can you think of "the present" and actually experience the reality of it?

The present cannot be experienced; with the brain and with thinking there is no reality beyond image. Thinking -- the mind -- goes 'round and 'round but it is never be able to transcend its limited self. Reality is forever unknowable.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Fri, 20 Feb 2015.

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Fri, 20 Feb 2015 #64
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
Isn't "the present" a reality? But . . . can you think of "the present" and actually experience the reality of it?

That wanders into meditation and you can't 'think' of it, probably even experience it.

This post was last updated by mike c (account deleted) Fri, 20 Feb 2015.

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Fri, 20 Feb 2015 #65
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

But we live in the present. We can't know the present, so we are alive but we don't know it.

max

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Fri, 20 Feb 2015 #66
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
But we live in the present. We can't know the present, so we are alive but we don't know it.

I think we live in the present to the degree to which we are attentive to it. Generally, the past overshadows it, doesn't it? Memory...?

This post was last updated by mike c (account deleted) Fri, 20 Feb 2015.

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Fri, 20 Feb 2015 #67
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

mike c wrote:

I think we live in the present to the degree to which we are attentive to it.

Yes. With awareness there is the present moment, but there is no "I," or "we." There is no "I am aware,"or "We are aware." There is only awareness.

Just as with observation -- there is only the observation. As soon as there is an observer and the observed, we have identification, existence and image.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Fri, 20 Feb 2015.

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Fri, 20 Feb 2015 #68
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
Isn't "the present" a reality?

The present is the actual, obviously. The words are interchangeable. 'Reality' is what we make of it. The mind, though it is also in the present (it is actual), is a reflective organ, and the reflection is never the actual, for two reasons. The reflection is always partial (in both senses of the word) and the reflection is always, at least, milliseconds behind the event it reflects.

One can say, therefore, that reality always lags behind actuality and is never true to it. Does this make it a lie?

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Fri, 20 Feb 2015 #69
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

mike c wrote:
I think we live in the present to the degree to which we are attentive to it. Generally, the past overshadows it, doesn't it? Memory...?

Le mort saisit le vif! [The dead holds the living in his grasp. – formula of French common law] - quoted by Karl Marx in preface to Capital.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

This post was last updated by Pavil Davidov (account deleted) Fri, 20 Feb 2015.

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Fri, 20 Feb 2015 #70
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Pavil Davidov wrote:
'Reality' is what we make of it.

I don't see this at all. Reality -- the present, the actual -- is not whatever we believe that it is, or whatever we "make" of it. We cannot change the present anymore than we can change space -- and both are reality.

We live in the present -- no choice in the matter. Awareness takes place in the present -- awareness cannot take place in the past or in the future. The present is the reality, and there is awareness in the present with no time lag. The present is not "caught in time."

max

This post was last updated by max greene Fri, 20 Feb 2015.

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Fri, 20 Feb 2015 #71
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Pavil Davidov wrote:
The mind, though it is also in the present (it is actual), is a reflective organ, and the reflection is never the actual, for two reasons. The reflection is always partial (in both senses of the word) and the reflection is always, at least, milliseconds behind the event it reflects.

This is the point of a mind in meditation, isn't it? -what K described, in his Notebook, etc- that in meditation is creation and destruction, and so no lag (even of milliseconds) in perception. The swift, alert mind must be in unity with creation.

Also, the word 'mind' is not quite right, it is the brain that is the reflective organ.

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Fri, 20 Feb 2015 #72
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

mike c wrote:
Also, the word 'mind' is not quite right, it is the brain that is the reflective organ.

Good. "Mind" is vague, and the brain is the physical instrument that coordinates the body's activities, that stores memory and (apparently) is the center for the timelessness of awareness.

max

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Fri, 20 Feb 2015 #73
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
I don't see this at all. Reality -- the present, the actual -- is not whatever we believe that it is, or whatever we "make" of it. We cannot change the present anymore than we can change space -- and both are reality.

I'm just using the word 'reality' in a different sense, Max, different from 'actuality.' It's a way to distinguish the actual from what we 'realize' about it. I am taking the actual to be that which 'is' in the present. The word 'actual' means precisely that. But the word 'real' has a slightly different connotation, one that is overlooked in normal usage. Take its derivatives as an example, to 'realize' and to 'reify,' which are both mental acts, whereas 'action' is always in the present, is always 'what is.'

Of course 'the actual' is not whatever we make of it.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Fri, 20 Feb 2015 #74
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
Good. "Mind" is vague, and the brain is the physical instrument that coordinates the body's activities, that stores memory and (apparently) is the center for the timelessness of awareness.

'Mind' is only vague if you give vagueness to it. And look at what you're saying, Max. You say the brain stores 'memory.' Is memory not of the mind? Do you have your mind here and your memory there? Memory is mind. Neither is the brain a store. Neither does the brain 'co-ordinate' action. The whole body-mind is the font of action. It co-ordinates its action through the brain, not the brain co-ordinates. The mind is the whole movement of that, including the body and its brain.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Fri, 20 Feb 2015 #75
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Pavil Davidov wrote:
Of course 'the actual' is not whatever we make of it.

True. Krishnamurti and Bohm had a conversation in which they discussed the "Real" and "Reality."

As I see it, there is only the present, the Real, which is timeless. But the present unfolds in sequence, and so there is "the latest in sequence," which may be said to be caught in time. It is this latest in sequence that exists, and this existence is Reality.

max

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Sat, 21 Feb 2015 #76
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1165 posts in this forum Offline

Max, sequence in this context implies past and future. You can't have "only the present" and a sequence which is also real.

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Sat, 21 Feb 2015 #77
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

"Seeing without thought is total seeing. Seeing a cloud over a mountain, without thought and its responses, is the miracle of the new; it's not "beautiful", it's explosive in its immensity; it is something that has never been and never will be. To see, to listen, consciousness in its entirety must be still for the destructive creation to be. It is the totality of life and not the fragment of all thought. There is no beauty but only a cloud over a mountain; it is creation."

-K's Notebook

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Sat, 21 Feb 2015 #78
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

dave h wrote:
. . . sequence in this context implies past and future. You can't have "only the present" and a sequence which is also real.

There is a "past" only in comparison with the present. That comparison, which is thinking, is what we call "sequence."

max

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Sat, 21 Feb 2015 #79
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

mike c wrote:
Seeing a cloud over a mountain, without thought and its responses, is the miracle of the new; it's not "beautiful", it's explosive in its immensity. . .

Good quote, Mike. To live without thinking and thought is to live in this immensely creative moment.

max

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