Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Love, Trust, Integrity...


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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #1
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

I have inherited the notion (or belief) that love and trust are intertwined ie. that there can not be love without trust and vice versa...

This forum asks that people divulge their real names from the outset and so on because (I think) it is in keeping with this premise/expectation.

This said, I can see why people have worn 'masks' yet are not necessarily 'trolls' even though they have been accused of being so...

Not mentioning any names some writers have exploited the genuine communications of others by adopting several identities to push their points and to be centre stage here.
This has undermined the trust of others and moreover diluted the level (depth?) of participation.

The deceptions on others' parts threw me for one all over the place ! (Apologies for my reactivity). My naivete had led me to believe that Kinfonet was/is a place for genuine dialogue/discussion. It remains such -potentially - but only up to a point. Some would say that it is better to talk in more abstract terms and leave the self or the me out of it. There is confusion presented here (for me anyway) when seeking to look together at or into 'what is'.

What is Kinfonet right now for the people writing here ? Are you writing/speaking freely in a trusting atmosphere ? Do you feel that your integrity is or has been compromised by others' contributions ? I see how integrity is (also) linked to freedom ie. to the freedom to speak one's mind such as K did.

What is meant by this word 'integrity' ? Is it just another vain notion of self ? It seems to me that integrity is also
linked to trust.

I will close this here...reading you all with interest...Regards, Katy

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #2
Thumb_2564 Satya Prakash India 528 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias 2 wrote:
What is Kinfonet right now for the people writing here ? Are you writing/speaking freely in a trusting atmosphere ? Do you feel that your integrity is or has been compromised by others' contributions ? I see how integrity is (also) linked to freedom ie. to the freedom to speak one's mind such as K did.

Hi Katy,

The freedom to say what one wants to say can not be taken away here. Of course, the quality of response would vary from being relevant to the post replied to or topic initiated to being totally irrelevant and irrational.

One also has the freedom to respond or not to any post. One's interest/reason for participation in the forums would decide which posts one chooses to respond or ignores. One can not control what other says, but this does not apply to oneself. Expecting 'love, trust and integrity' from each poster here is a tall order.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #3
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Thankyou, Satya, for your pointers and good humour :-)

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #4
Thumb_2564 Satya Prakash India 528 posts in this forum Offline

Arivalagan S wrote:
Hang about doc, I thought you were all against 'control.'

If there was no sane 'control', I would also be wasting my energy like you with J, L L.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #5
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Satya's right about not having expectations of others' writing but to instead be mindful of one's own contributions...

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #6
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Arivalagan S wrote:
The forum does not ask that people divulge their real names in public, Katy. You alone have had about ten aliases, here and elsewhere. You know what I mean.

No, Paul/Arivalagan, I don't know what you mean ! This whoppa of a lie about me is a reflection of your lack of integrity isn't it ?

I have always and only written to this forum in one first name (as Katy). The same cannot be said of you since you have written in about 10 aliases - male and female - sometimes arguing with one another haven't you? That is past now. I see that you are being highly defensive about your own participation here.

Paul, if you just want to be insulting and dishonest please don't address me directly. Thanks.

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Thu, 10 Oct 2013.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #7
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

I won't import it all here but for those who are interested in this topic there is quite a lot written about integrity by Krishnamurti @ J Krishnamurti Online...

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Thu, 10 Oct 2013.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #8
Thumb_stringio anish leh United States 474 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Katy Alias 2 wrote:
Do you feel that your integrity is or has been compromised by others' contributions ?

Are you saying integrity is dependent, is or isn't according to what people post?

This post was last updated by anish leh (account deleted) Thu, 10 Oct 2013.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #9
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias 2 wrote:
Not mentioning any names some writers have exploited the genuine communications of others by adopting several identities to push their points and to be centre stage here.
This has undermined the trust of others and moreover diluted the level (depth?) of participation.

Katy, you've made an interesting point here. I don't present myself as blameless for perpetuating a divisive environment on the forum from time to time. But I have often suspected that there were people with two or more simultaneous identities on this forum that they use to hammer away at their detractors.

Personally, I think the most disruptive type of poster on here is the one who presents himself as an expert on K and a sort of continuation of K's consciousness. Like the people who are here to be our mirrors and who will tell us what K really meant. And who understand perfectly what K pointed out and are too willing to show us the errors of our understanding.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 10 Oct 2013.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #10
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

anish leh wrote:
Are you saying integrity is dependent, is or isn't according to what people post?

An interesting question, Anish...is there such a fixed identity as integrity appertaining to the self or is it something a person tries to have/aspires towards?
Misplaced trust impacts negatively and creates suspicion/caution which in turn impedes freedom of speech or voice I suppose. What do you say ?

I read some of what K wrote about it (integrity)and it would seem to be an 'imperative'...please see J Krishnamurti Online for more since I would not do his words justice and Jack and others here make the point rightly about not interpreting (or transposing) his words.

Regards, Katy

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Thu, 10 Oct 2013.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #11
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
But I have often suspected that there were people with two or more simultaneous identities on this forum that they use to hammer away at their detractors.

Yes, indeed, Jack this has most certainly been the case...I haven't taken part for a few months so I don't know if it is still operating.

Jack Pine wrote:
Personally, I think the most disruptive type of poster on here is the one who presents himself as an expert on K and a sort of continuation of K's consciousness. Like the people who are here to be our mirrors and who will tell us what K really meant. And who understand perfectly what K pointed out and are too willing to show us the errors of our understanding.

Yes, I do see your point. Thanks.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #12
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Paul/Arivalagan,

I have sent you a pm about this...I haven't written here for a while and you are seeking an argument with me. Give me a break ! Thanks.

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Thu, 10 Oct 2013.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #13
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Arivalagan S wrote:
And, indeed, you foist your own claims upon me and, as you know, this led us to break off email contact. I simply got sick and tired of the accusations.

See Ari where identification to forms leads you now ... such emotional reactions to protect your false self image ... what an energy waste indeed !

Why perpetuate all this non-sense, Ari ? Free yourself from this self image and the past ... when there is no self image, there is nothing left to be defended ... when will the penny drop in your slot-machine Ari ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Thu, 10 Oct 2013.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #14
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I don't present myself as blameless for perpetuating a divisive environment on the forum from time to time.

Come on Jack, don't be so severe with yourself ... we have learned so much with you ... you are such a perfect 'case study' for us ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #15
Thumb_stringio anish leh United States 474 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Katy Alias 2 wrote:
An interesting question, Anish...is there such a fixed identity as integrity appertaining to the self or is it something a person tries to be/aspires to?

There's a quote at the end of this post. :)

Misplaced trust impacts negatively and creates suspicion/caution which in turn impedes freedom I suppose. What do you say ?

What is there which seems as though impacted that would be suspicious/cautious?

I read some of what K wrote about it (integrity)and it would seem to be an 'imperative'...please see J Krishnamurti Online for more since I would not do his words justice and Jack and others here make the point rightly about not interpreting (or transposing him) his words.

Regards, Katy

I did as you suggested :) and found:

K: I don't mean by integrity any form of pattern of belief, nor do I mean it as integrity according to the experience through which one has to live; but I mean that integrity that comes about when you begin to observe every movement of your own thought and when no thought is hidden. You do not wear a mask, you do not any longer pretend to be something other than what you actually are; and therefore there is no discipline, no fancy, no worship; and out of that comes the external sense of integrity I mean that kind of integrity, not the man who has belief and lives according to that belief, not the man who is sincere but with certain ideals, not the man who follows a certain discipline or tries to bring about an integration emotionally or intellectually. Such efforts do not bring out integrity. On the contrary, they increase conflict, misery. Whereas the integrity that we are talking about is the quality of seeing the fact every minute, not trying to translate the fact in terms of pleasure and pain, but letting the fact flower without choice, without opinion - out of which seeing comes integrity which is never altered.

Regards Katy. :)

This post was last updated by anish leh (account deleted) Thu, 10 Oct 2013.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #16
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Arivalagan S wrote:

Katy Alias 2 wrote:
I see that you are being highly defensive about your own participation here.

I am not defending, Katy. Are you?

Hahahahaha

:-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #17
Thumb_stringio anish leh United States 474 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:

Jack Pine wrote:
I don't present myself as blameless for perpetuating a divisive environment on the forum from time to time.

Come on Jack, don't be so severe with yourself ... we have learned so much with you ... you are such a perfect 'case study' for us ...

According to who?

Is it thought that posting imagined images helps in some way?

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #18
Thumb_stringio anish leh United States 474 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arivalagan S wrote:
A good start at an adequate question, Anish. We should ask what integrity is and if any of us actually have it. Is it internal or external? Does one not have to be integrated? What are we actually looking at, a state of being or an external behaviour? That is an open question.

Good questions Ari. The quote I posted in response to Katy might suffice for addressing these questions?

To start with a supposition is to close inquiry.

Indeed. :)

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #19
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Thankyou very much, Anish, for your reply #20 :-)

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Thu, 10 Oct 2013 #20
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias 2 wrote:
Some would say that it is better to talk in more abstract terms and leave the self or the me out of it.

Hi Katy,

I don't know who you are and have not made any image of you, neither do I about your past experience in this forum ... which seems to have been a hard one from what you posted above ...

It seems you have understood it would be "better to leave the self out of it" ... you are perfectly right to say so, when there is a self image, you have to defend it, and this defensive attitude, leading to emotional reactions, is a waste of energy ... and suffering too ...

However, I would not say we have to talk in more "abstract" terms ... but rather in more factual terms ... and when self image is there, facts are always 'distorted' by this self image, and 'what is' can no more be clearly seen and shared ...

So good luck to you Katy ... welcome in virtual reality :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 11 Oct 2013 #21
Thumb_stringio anish leh United States 474 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Katy Alias 2 wrote:
Thankyou very much, Anish, for your reply #20 :-)

Thanks, Katy. :)

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Fri, 11 Oct 2013 #22
Thumb_stringio anish leh United States 474 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arivalagan S wrote:
It would seem to mean NOT trying to live or act any certain way, but the presence of a continual or persistent concern with understanding one's own action, which is not an act of will but is either present or not, to whatever degree. I make no claim to be 'integrated.' I know I am far from it. I doubt that it exists, in any absolute sense.

:)

k: The word 'integrity' also means to be whole and to say what you mean and not say one thing and do something else. Integrity implies honesty. Can we be honest if we have illusions and romantic and speculative ideals and strong beliefs? We may be honest to a belief but that does not imply integrity. As it is, we bring children into the world, spoil them till they are two or three, and then prepare them for war. History has not taught human beings; how many mothers must have cried, their sons having been killed in wars, yet we are incapable of stopping this monstrous killing of each other.

If we are to teach the young we must have in ourselves a sense of the demand for the good. Good is not an ideal; it is to be whole, to have integrity, to have no fear, not to be confused; these are not ideals, they are acts. Can we be factual and so bring about a good human being through education? Do we really want a different culture, a different human being, with a mind that is not confused, that has no fear, that has this quality of integrity?

And in that regard, I am not sure what K meant by the last phrase in the quote, the "integrity which is never altered." What do you make of that?

This part of the quote: "Whereas the integrity that we are talking about is the quality of seeing the fact every minute, not trying to translate the fact in terms of pleasure and pain, but letting the fact flower without choice, without opinion - out of which seeing comes integrity which is never altered**."

Note 'seeing'.

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Fri, 11 Oct 2013 #23
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Arivalagan S wrote:
The problem seems to arise when we do something without either knowing or knowing why, and that includes taking the image for the actuality it attempts to reflect or portray.

Yes and this begins with the false self image you feed by identifying with forms Ari (physical and psychological) ... creating a separation/division/duality between a center ('me') and a periphery ('non-me') ... why not SEE this NOW ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 11 Oct 2013 #24
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Arivalagan S wrote:
K talks of masks

Mask = self image = form = false identity

Maybe put in this basic mathematical form would make it more understandable for your very scientific and materialistic mind Ari ...

Maybe not ... ??

:-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 11 Oct 2013 #25
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Satya Prakash wrote:
One also has the freedom to respond or not to any post.

Thanks Satya ... I am feeling much better now ...

:-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 11 Oct 2013 #26
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias 2 wrote:
Thankyou, Satya, for your pointers and good humour :-)

Satya Prakash - good humour ... ??

Is there a compatibility ? ... or is this a built-in contradiction ?

Satya Prakash means "Truth that enlightens" ... this is too serious, too respectable, to indulge in good humour ...

:-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 12 Oct 2013 #27
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

What causes people/us to wear masks - some more elaborate than others?

Is it a way of distancing and/or distinguishing oneself from others?

What (or who) is it that is being hidden?

Do you agree with K's 'definition'/'description' of integrity ?

It seems to me that fear is at the root of mask-wearing as with everything. How can I/one approach dialogue in an environment/atmosphere of fear ?

I have put great store by K's work because he rejects the inherited mumbo jumbo of classifications which divide us. How can I, Katy, break free of the nonsense that has been written here about another's image of me/you/us? ?

It seems right/true as you all say that image-making is the obstructive force and some of you seem to be very cool and able to just stay with the topic.

Being with what is from moment to moment (a person of integrity in a K-sense) asks that there is no (psychological) accumulation really of a me/self. I want to make my peace with people here and to let go of the difficult past wrangles and ugly projections but I have not learned how to confront internet bullying.

The other part is that I was/am open to the element here which was 'iconoclastic' ie. that questioned K's authority...This was alright in principle even though it was a bit daft of me since I don't have anything more sagacious to offer others !

Watching the little birds enjoying what's left of the honeysuckle as I am writing this...a good day for a walk...'bye for now, Katy

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Sat, 12 Oct 2013 #28
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Satya Prakash wrote:
Expecting 'love, trust and integrity' from each poster here is a tall order.

:-)

I guess reading and listening to K raises a person's expectations and hence the conflict, Satya.

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Sat, 12 Oct 2013 #29
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Satya Prakash means "Truth that enlightens" ... this is too serious, too respectable, to indulge in good humour ...

:-)

Hi Jean.

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Sat, 12 Oct 2013 #30
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias 2 wrote:
I want to make my peace with people here and to let go of the difficult past wrangles and ugly projections but I have not learned how to confront internet bullying.

Hi Katy,

Make peace with people here ... well probably something like Mission Impossible V6 ... and we are not Tom Cruise :-)

When everyone is projecting and protecting harshly one's self image, feels threatened by what another says, identifies with beliefs and opinions of all kinds, reacting emotionally to challenges, bullying each other etc. peace/quietness seems difficult to reach ...

I feel sincerity in what you say Katy ... I really hope you can succeed in finding peace, here and inside yourself ...

:-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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