Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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From Today's Quote of the Day...


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Sat, 06 Jul 2013 #1
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Questioner: Why are there so many insane, unbalanced people in the world?
Krishnamurti: What is this civilization that we have built up? A civilization which is the result of craving, the dominant factor of sensory gratification. And having produced a world in which sensate value dominates, naturally the creative sensibilities are either destroyed or warped or blocked. Through the value of the senses there is no release and so individuals resort to the fabrication of delusion, consciously or unconsciously, which eventually isolates them. Unless sensate value yields to eternal value we will have delusions and strife, confusion and war. To bring a fundamental change in value you must become thoughtful and discard those values of the self, of craving, through constant awareness and self-knowledge.

Do other people writing here 'agree' with/see this answer from K ? What do you say?

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Sat, 06 Jul 2013.

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Sat, 06 Jul 2013 #2
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias 2 wrote:
What do you say?

one must become thoughtful and discard those values of the self, of craving, through constant awareness and self-knowledge.

I don't know

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Sun, 07 Jul 2013 #3
Thumb_stringio anish leh United States 474 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dhirendra singh wrote:

Katy Alias 2 wrote:
What do you say?

one must become thoughtful and discard those values of the self, of craving, through constant awareness and self-knowledge.

Trying that isn't necessary when looking, listening. Many people posting on kinfonet would rather intellectualize/analyze (think), talk talk talk, so they're attracted to what encourages more thinking (trying to be thoughtful), trying to do something as though there's something to be done. That's OK but it's being used for avoiding what is feared. Fear seeks ways to avoid looking, to avoid listening, the absence of thought.

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Mon, 08 Jul 2013 #4
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

anish leh wrote:
Fear seeks ways to avoid looking, to avoid listening, the absence of thought.

Yes, Anish, this seems right/true...everybody's talking and nobody's listening:)

There is also the inheritance, isn't there, of idealisation/intellectualisation which, by definition, counters or obstructs the sort of intelligence and/or creativity that K spoke of?

Seeking 'somethingness' and/or to distinguish oneself (as eg. more intellectual than others) is merely the inheritance of hierarchical values/constructs of thought talking.

This is well illustrated in this forum, too, in seeing the presiding conflict/division being acted out by the (divisive) property of thought - as you said, talk, talk, talk or me, me, meeee !:)

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Mon, 08 Jul 2013.

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Mon, 08 Jul 2013 #5
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

dhirendra singh wrote:
one must become thoughtful and discard those values of the self, of craving, through constant awareness and self-knowledge.

:) The answer's in the question !

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Mon, 08 Jul 2013 #6
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

..."Craving" suggests greed, not need.

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Mon, 08 Jul 2013.

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Mon, 08 Jul 2013 #7
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

...Perhaps it is clearer to see/say that "craving" is more to do with desire (in this context) than need? Otherwise, it loses its meaning, since it would be bizarre to assert that being guided by one's needs causes delusions and so on, wouldn't it ?

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Mon, 08 Jul 2013.

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Mon, 08 Jul 2013 #8
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Is it true that delusions are 'compensatory' ? How could a person know/test this ?

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Mon, 08 Jul 2013 #9
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

sen·sate (snst) also sen·sat·ed (-std)
adj.
1. Perceived by a sense or the senses.
2. Having physical sensation.

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Mon, 08 Jul 2013 #10
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 347 posts in this forum Offline

Paul/Arivalagan,

In the following excerpt K 'clarifies' what is meant by 'eternal' and/or 'sensate' value...

If you are able to set aside the passion and worldliness on which present culture is built, then you will discover and experience eternal value which is never within any framework; then you might be able to help others free themselves from bondage. We desire, unfortunately, to combine the eternal with a whole series of values which lead to antagonism, conflict, and misery. If you would seek truth you must abandon those values that are based on sensation and gratification, on passion and ill will, possessiveness and greed. You need not let your lives be guided by economists, by politicians and priests with their endless plans for peace; they have led you to death and destruction. You have made them your leaders, but now, with deep awareness, you must become responsible for yourself, for within you is the cause and the solution of all conflict and sorrow. You created it and you alone can free yourself, not another can save you. Krishnamurti

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Mon, 08 Jul 2013 #11
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias 2 wrote:
[Quoting Krishnamurti] To bring a fundamental change in value you must become thoughtful and discard those values of the self . . .

Thought is the self. How can one become "thoughtful" and so discard thought?

max

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Mon, 08 Jul 2013 #12
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Arivalagan S wrote:
The question surely is not whether we value sensation but how we value it.

We value by thinking, since thinking is the evaluation and judgment of what we have experienced. Thinking is always biased and conditioned, so "how we value" will always be, as Krishnamurti pointed out, incomplete and biased.

As an alternative, is it possible to be simply aware of sensation?

max

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Mon, 08 Jul 2013 #13
Thumb_stringio G M a Norway 89 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arivalagan S wrote:
Sexual urge is like sitting on a pin. What will you do? Are you aware what the implications are of denying your biological needs? I see biological need as natural good, that is, I give it that value.

Where is this going to end sir? In accumulating more sexual partners? and if yes, i don't see anything 'natural good' with it.

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Mon, 08 Jul 2013 #14
Thumb_stringio G M a Norway 89 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arivalagan S wrote:
Are you aware what the implications are of denying your biological needs?

As far as I see, if one denies the genuine sexual/biological need, it will operate subconsciously and contaminate all the interactions and as you said lead to neurosis. Reminds me of the Jung's remark that "Nietzsche drips with outraged sexuality".

So what is the way out? Indulgence?

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Mon, 08 Jul 2013 #15
Thumb_stringio G M a Norway 89 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arivalagan S wrote:
No sir, when you are hungry, you eat. This is the true value of sensation which our society should be based upon. Society should arrange itself in favour of life, yet it is presently organised in denial of it. That is the issue, not awareness but action for change.

If I remember right, this is what the fraud guru 'Osho' with all his transcendental wisdom tried to implement within his followers as an experiment; what happened then Sir?

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Mon, 08 Jul 2013 #16
Thumb_stringio G M a Norway 89 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arivalagan S wrote:
His ashram's were mental asylums and prisons.

True.

Thanks for the discussion Sir.

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Mon, 08 Jul 2013 #17
Thumb_stringio G M a Norway 89 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arivalagan S wrote:
In south India it is frowned upon for a couple to hold hands in public or to show natural love and physical affection. Yet pornography is in every home via the internet, and widely used by all the inhibited and hypocrites.

I am not sure how the land of 'Kamasutra' and 'Khajuraho' got corrupted. During the Vedic period, there was never an inhibition of sex in India. I think it was during the period after Shankaracharya (exponent of Advaita Vedanta) that celibacy ('brahmacharya') gained undue prominence in the religious/cultural spheres of life leading to perversion based on inhibition.

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Tue, 09 Jul 2013 #18
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Arivalagan S wrote:
South was always home to us Junglies! :)

If you really see the fact that you are a first rate jungli whether of South /North/East/West , you would not post the trash you usually post here.

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Tue, 09 Jul 2013 #19
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Arivalagan S wrote:
That is the issue, not awareness but action for change.

Krishnamurti pointed out that our problems are the result of our everlasting "what shall we do about it?"

Here's how I see what he was getting at:

We are forever seeing or sensing something and then mulling over in our minds what we have seen or sensed. We think about what we have seen or sensed, and out of this thought we take some "action."

This so-called "action" that we take is the result of thought -- thought, which is consideration, evaluation, judgment and choice. The thought we give a subject will invariably be conditioned and fragmentary. Therefore, any action we take as a result of thought will be incomplete and will not fully address or resolve any issue to which it may be applied.

We have been trying for millenia to resolve our problems with thought. Solving our problems through thought hasn't worked in the past and there is no reason to believe that it will work either in the present or in the future.

The alternative to thinking and thought is awareness. As Krishnamurti also pointed out, the awareness IS the action. With awareness comes true action, whereas with thinking and thought we do not have action but instead we have reaction. This reaction is memory-driven, whereas the action of awareness is a response to "what is," to what is actually before us, to ourselves and to the world as it is RIGHT NOW.

max

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Wed, 10 Jul 2013 #20
Thumb_stringio anish leh United States 474 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Katy Alias 2 wrote:

anish leh wrote:
Fear seeks ways to avoid looking, to avoid listening, the absence of thought.

Yes, Anish, this seems right/true...everybody's talking and nobody's listening:)

There is also the inheritance, isn't there, of idealisation/intellectualisation which, by definition, counters or obstructs the sort of intelligence and/or creativity that K spoke of?

Seeking 'somethingness' and/or to distinguish oneself (as eg. more intellectual than others) is merely the inheritance of hierarchical values/constructs of thought talking.

What do you mean "inheritance"? :)

This is well illustrated in this forum, too, in seeing the presiding conflict/division being acted out by the (divisive) property of thought - as you said, talk, talk, talk or me, me, meeee !:)

In trying avoiding, when observing is absent, 'me' is bound to sometimes react to what's posted which seems to it threatening in some way to it's image of itself. :)

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Wed, 10 Jul 2013 #21
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Arivalagan S wrote:
Is something wrong with the 'messages' service? I cannot gain access.

No access yesterday either! Seems to be totally out of service....since the evening before yesterday.

Let it Be

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Wed, 10 Jul 2013 #22
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Arivalagan S wrote:
. . .it is clear and obvious that discrete problems do exist that can be resolved by thought, to their completion. For example, all mathematical tasks allow thought to proceed to a conclusion. . . . Many issues CAN be fully resolved by thought. I now have to resolve the issue of supper by preparing a cauliflower and mustard soup. [post 30]

In this discussion are we confusing thought with memory? There is a tremendous difference between the two. For me, it seems quite important that we understand that difference.

Memory is the record of experience that each of us has imprinted in the neuron-synapse structure of the brain. Thought, on the other hand, is the consideration, evaluation and judgment of memory. In other words -- surprise? -- our thinking and thought is merely our own opinion of our own memory. Thought is opinion, because thinking is always an individual's biased and conditioned evaluation. Thinking is based on memory, memory is its referent, but in itself it is not memory.

Is thought needed to tie a shoe? Is thought needed to cook dinner? To drive a car? Is thought needed and necessary for anything at all? It appears to me that it is not. What is absolutely needed for survival and for getting around in this world is memory and awareness. Those two: memory and the necessary awareness of memory. Thought, which is the individual's opinion of memory, is a pernicious waste of time.

max

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Wed, 10 Jul 2013 #23
Thumb_stringio anish leh United States 474 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arivalagan S wrote:
Thought is required, at the conscious level, to deliberate on new problems. If you are used to cooking a meal for one it's easy, automatic. But when you get the call that 16 are coming to dinner you have to switch back from automatic and think.

Automatic (habit) isn't the absence of thought.

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Wed, 10 Jul 2013 #24
Thumb_stringio anish leh United States 474 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

:)

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Wed, 10 Jul 2013 #25
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

anish leh wrote:
Automatic (habit) isn't the absence of thought.

Quite, it's the absence of attention. Which allows for the phenomenon of divided attention.

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Wed, 10 Jul 2013 #26
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arivalagan S wrote:
Habit is thought repeating itself, unconsciously, according to a laid-down pattern.

it isn't obvious that this is so, can you elaborate?

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Wed, 10 Jul 2013 #27
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arivalagan S wrote:
and its unconscious forms,

If you have no relationship to it why do you insist it is a form of thinking?

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Thu, 11 Jul 2013 #28
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Arivalagan S wrote:
Conscious thought, is necessary when learning such things . . . Thought is required, at the conscious level, to deliberate on new problems. [post 36]

Did we use thought in learning to tie our shoes, or was it through attention and awareness that shoe-tying was learned? At the time, did we pay attention and were we aware of what our mother was showing us and telling us, or did we sit there thinking about and remembering what was going on?

Do we learn to drive in accordance with safety and the law by using thought and memory? Or do we learn to drive by paying attention to, and by being aware of, what we are told and what we experience?

It seems to me that nothing can ever be learned through thinking and remembering. We learn through awareness.

Awareness is the source of memory. When we say that memory is recalled, we are saying that we are aware of memory. The recall (awareness) of memory should not be confused with thought. Thought is the psychological comparison, evaluation and judgment of recalled memory.

Which brings up the question, is the psychological (thought) in any way necessary for learning, or is thought, in fact, an obstruction and a hindrance? To learn requires the awareness of what is before one together with the awareness of any appropriate memory (i.e., recall as necessary). I can't see that thought is ever anything but a drag -- at the very least. Thought (the psychological) can actually result in dangerous delay, obstruction, hindrance.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Thu, 11 Jul 2013.

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Thu, 11 Jul 2013 #29
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Arivalagan S wrote:
I clearly recall learning to tie my bootlaces (and I'm pretty good at it by now). I recall being told about the two loops and being shown the twists and pulls. I remember having to verbalise the procedure as I went along, almost like a nursery rhyme. Making knots is a highly organised procedure and the verbal goes with the motor action quite nicely.

Yes, you now recall, but at the time, the way you learned was by paying attention. You now recall, and you can tie your boots with the use of memory, but even here you have to recall memory by being aware of it. I can't see where the psychological (thought) comes in or is at all necessary.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Thu, 11 Jul 2013.

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Thu, 11 Jul 2013 #30
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1165 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Which brings up the question, is the psychological (thought) in any way necessary for learning, or is thought, in fact, an obstruction and a hindrance? To learn requires the awareness of what is before one together with the awareness of any appropriate memory (i.e., recall as necessary). I can't see that thought is ever anything but a drag -- at the very least. Thought (the psychological) can actually result in dangerous delay, obstruction, hindrance.

Typically the word memory means recollection of facts. When we say someone has a good memory we usually mean that they can recall a large amount of past sensations and symbols with a good degree of accuracy. Then when we say someone has good imagination or thinking ability, we usually they are able to reorder/reorganise facts so as to solve technical problems.

Someone is designing a new bridge say. To design something new requires at least some reordering/reorganisation of memory otherwise one could only repeat what had been remembered. One could only provide sketches of a bridge that one had already seen. Elephants are known for their long and accurate memory but they cannot (as far as I know) design bridges.

The way you seem to be using the word thought is more akin to what might generally be called obstinate belief which is a kind of thinking but not all of thinking.

K introduced terms like technical and psychological thinking to help clarify his meaning here. But then one has to go into what is faulty (psychological) thinking exactly.

Anyway this my take on how these words are commonly used, and of course different people will have a different take on it.

This post was last updated by dave h Thu, 11 Jul 2013.

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