Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Using Words To Hurt Another


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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #1
Thumb_2564 Satya Prakash India 528 posts in this forum Offline

What is happening on kinfonet these days is no secret. Almost all topics are deteriorating quickly into verbal fights between few or many posters. Instead of exchanging observations and understandings, posters are exchanging words of Anger, hate, ridicule, intolerance, irritation, violence etc.

What gives momemtum to words that hurt another?

Knowing very well that such exchanges are counterproductive to healthy/productive dialogue, why does one indulge in initiating or maintaining such bitter exchanges? Why are we incapable of showing any control to save the discussion?

Why is it so difficult to maintain sanity in the presence of provocative words? Why do we ignore our interest as a poster wanting useful discussion here?

Are we stupid and lack common sense or simply unhappy/violent to the core both inwardly and outwardly in our lives to compulsively convert these forums into a battleground for our ego?

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #2
Thumb_dsci0664 George Lanroh United States 200 posts in this forum Offline

Satya Prakash wrote:
Why is it so difficult to maintain sanity in the presence of provocative words? Why do we ignore our interest as a poster wanting useful discussion here?

We allow the past to have effect on the present even though the present without memory is free of the past. Even if the past is made present the actual cause of a hurt is not present that was in the past. Yes an event happened but the cause is long gone, now it is the person who is reacting to the past which holds both cause and effect because they do not see that the cause is not now but long ago. In a nut shell we keep on believing that a cause of yesterdays event is continuous and does not end with yesterdays event. Upon memory we bring the event forward with both cause and effect when today the cause was not. Hope that makes sense. If not disregard. Of coarse just one of many reasons for our forum troubles though all of time.

There is no other.

This post was last updated by George Lanroh Tue, 09 Apr 2013.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #3
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Satya Prakash wrote:
Are we stupid and lack common sense or simply unhappy/violent to the core both inwardly and outwardly in our lives to compulsively convert these forums into a battleground for our ego?

Do you include yourself in "we", Satya? Why use words like "stupid" and "unhappy/violent" if you're not trying to be provocative? If you want people to calm down and be reasonable, why get all dramatic by calling this forum "a battleground"? That may be your experience of it, but to me it's more like a lunatic asylum. At least on a battleground people know what they're doing.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #4
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

George Lanroh wrote:
We allow the past to have effect on the present even though the present without memory is free of the past.

George, have you ever given this hare-brained notion any thought? Without the past informing the present one is mindless, agog, a moron.

George Lanroh wrote:
Even if the past is made present the actual cause of a hurt is not present that was in the past.

If you're conscious, the past is always present, like it or not.

George Lanroh wrote:
Yes an event happened but the cause is long gone, now it is the person who is reacting to the past which holds both cause and effect because they do not see that the cause is not now but long ago.

Now you're muddling up your own argument. Who or what is "the person"? Why introduce this word if you're talking about the brain and perception?

George Lanroh wrote:
In a nut shell we keep on believing that a cause of yesterdays event is continuous and does not end with yesterdays event.

Speak for yourself.

George Lanroh wrote:
Upon memory we bring the event forward with both cause and effect when today the cause was not. Hope that makes sense.

It doesn't. Hope you realize that.

George Lanroh wrote:
If not disregard.

Now you tell me.

George Lanroh wrote:
Of coarse just one of many reasons for our forum troubles though all of time.

Of "coarse".

https://www.google.com/search?source=ig&rlz...

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #5
Thumb_dsci0664 George Lanroh United States 200 posts in this forum Offline

One of the reasons for the break down is post like 3 and 4 of this thread. Even if one ignores ones own conditioned response and know one is being baited for the switch you received with post 3. There are those among us who only see such activities as differences in personalities and not the activities of an unwatched ego. Even any attempt to look for a solution is pointed out to be the problem, shifting once again for years the light of the real problem of identification with a false image of ones self from the past. Because it is a shadow and not the truth it must be puffed up all the time through smoke and mirrors. The bait and switch is to divert attention from this lie of time being exposed.

There is no other.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #6
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

It's hard to tell just what it is you're trying to say, George, but the reader gets the idea: you feel superior to "an unwatched ego". Whatever the ego is, you think yours is watched, or some such nonsense.

George Lanroh wrote:
Even any attempt to look for a solution is pointed out to be the problem, shifting once again for years the light of the real problem of identification with a false image of ones self from the past.

Can you provide an example of this? It really isn't clear what you're saying.

George Lanroh wrote:
Because it is a shadow and not the truth it must be puffed up all the time through smoke and mirrors.

When it comes to smoke and mirrors, George, you're the master. There's more than ample proof of this in your rhapsodic ramblings in "There is no Other". As for "the truth", is there such a thing, or is there only evidence and demonstrability?

George Lanroh wrote:
The bait and switch is to divert attention from this lie of time being exposed.

"Lie of time"? How do you come up with this stuff, George?

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #7
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Arthur Landon wrote:
Without the past informing the present one is mindless, agog, a moron.

Please define "mind." Unless you are certain of what "mind" is, your statement is meaningless.

How does the past "inform" the present, except to influence the present and interpret the present -- make of it, in other words, a modified past? But the present is now. The present is not the past and will never be -- can't be. But through thought, we perpetually exist -- not live -- in the past.

max

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #8
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
Please define "mind." Unless you are certain of what "mind" is, your statement is meaningless.

By "mind" I mean the cognitive process, the way the brain processes and organizes information; what K called "thought".

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #9
Thumb_dsci0664 George Lanroh United States 200 posts in this forum Offline

Arthur Landon wrote:
Without the past informing the present one is mindless, agog, a moron.

With the past informing the present one is not actually in contact with the now so does not see what is in the present as if anew. Very mechanical as seen here when the past is the only thing present.

Arthur Landon wrote:
If you're conscious, the past is always present, like it or not.

In the above light man has never changed, and cannot change. Change is see as very possible. Because a person is a thief to day does not mean for always. This is what I was pointing out in post 2 on this thread. Forgiveness is only when an event of yesterday never happened. If not how is it truly forgiven. Most often here at the forum events only happen as they pass through the Vail of our conditioning. Without the Vail they never happened. But this is how we talk about tea pots when the true light is upon drinking the tea. I speak in metaphors because as many here have seen it is in the negation of time the die of the past is smashed and not by being subject to the notion that there is nothing beyond. This very moment is beyond when everything is forgiven in the same light mentioned above. It never happened. Every hour/minute as much as possible it would be good if we showed up with: beyond what I read right now, nothing else has ever happened.

There is no other.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #10
Thumb_dsci0664 George Lanroh United States 200 posts in this forum Offline

Arthur Landon wrote:
It's hard to tell just what it is you're trying to say, George, but the reader gets the idea: you feel superior to "an unwatched ego". Whatever the ego is, you think yours is watched, or some such nonsense.

One feels asleep to an unwatched ego and awake when watched. When watched there is no accumulation happening to feel superior to an unwatched ego :) Only the sharing of a seeing because one is equal with ones fellow man as to being conditioned to look through the past and missing so very often there can be the anew. I do apologize if I write in such a way that is hard for you to hear what I am saying. I will work on seeing if I can adjust my writing so you can here me better.

There is no other.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #11
Thumb_stringio G M Norway 81 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arthur,

I am trying to understand what you are attempting to communicate; when you say that thought can operate unconsciously, do you mean to say that we are always under one or the other form of 'cognitive bias' from which there is no escape; in other words we/the cognitive process(which is essentially 'division') is always 'conditioned' from which there is never a release.

Being 'dimly aware' is a state where one unconsciously and mistakenly believe that there is a way out of the 'cognitive bias'.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #12
Thumb_img_7089_copy Eve G. Indonesia 1570 posts in this forum Offline

Satya Prakash wrote:
Are we stupid and lack common sense or simply unhappy/violent to the core both inwardly and outwardly in our lives to compulsively convert these forums into a battleground for our ego?

Satya,

Just observe the same images being recycled again and again derailing our talks and look at the ones we have had at Georges forum where none of it is going on.

On this forum there is a need to explode and in George's forum there is a need to discuss.

The reasons are the nature of the mind....one is an escape based motive and the other is to find out.

Nick and Paul have been derailing discussions because they have found nothing in the teachings and their intent is to make sure no one gets to discuss them either.

So they recycle images and come back and derail every discussion....if one observes it long enough, one either leaves the forum, gets frustrated with the whole process or just does not participate anymore.

Hence the motive.

:) there is no deep meaning here, only prowling ego/self bent on destroying understanding.

Truth needs no defense and hence is the folly of engaging this behaviors you mentioned.

The nature of the change from disorder is silence.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #13
Thumb_dsci0664 George Lanroh United States 200 posts in this forum Offline

G M wrote:
Being 'dimly aware' is a state where one unconsciously and mistakenly believe that there is a way out of the 'cognitive bias'.

Good eye G M, timing is everything.

There is no other.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #14
Thumb_img_7089_copy Eve G. Indonesia 1570 posts in this forum Offline

George Lanroh wrote:
G M wrote:

Being 'dimly aware' is a state where one unconsciously and mistakenly believe that there is a way out of the 'cognitive bias'.
Good eye G M, timing is everything.

then recycle this dimly awareness to a belief that this is all there is and imposing it as a fact.

The nature of the change from disorder is silence.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #15
Thumb_dsci0664 George Lanroh United States 200 posts in this forum Offline

Eve G. wrote:
then recycle this dimly awareness to a belief that this is all there is and imposing it as a fact.

Hi Eve

I am not sure if we are on the same page so I thought I would check :) The dim belief that there is a way out is not unlike the notion with time that one is stuck or that there is some where to go. It is not that there is nothing one should do to light the illusions of being stuck or free. In this mans eyes it is not within the field of time that waking up occurs It is upon seeing the whole field from outside it. Then one just puts it down and walks on. For that matter it just evaporates. Is this how you see it plus or minus. It is hard to but these things in words. How does one say that the ball and chain on ones leg is invisible when it may appear as totally solid. But yes to this man it is invisible much of the time, just not all the time :)

There is no other.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #16
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Satya Prakash wrote:
Instead of exchanging observations and understandings, posters are exchanging words of Anger, hate, ridicule, intolerance, irritation, violence etc.

Dear Satya, people ARE exchanging their observations and understandings.....which is the anger and ridicule and intolerence that you see. Sorry to remind you that this is "what is".

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #17
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Satya Prakash wrote:
What gives momemtum to words that hurt another?

Fear/anger.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #18
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Satya Prakash wrote:
Knowing very well that such exchanges are counterproductive to healthy/productive dialogue

"What is", is always "counter productive" to "what should be", in our imagination.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #19
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Satya Prakash wrote:
Are we stupid and lack common sense or simply unhappy/violent to the core both inwardly and outwardly in our lives to compulsively convert these forums into a battleground for our ego?

The human condition. "what is".

My question is, with all this evidence, why do we/you continue to hope/wish for something else?

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #20
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Satya Prakash wrote:
Why is it so difficult to maintain sanity in the presence of provocative words?

Implying that there is some sanity to maintain. Why do you assume we/you are sane?

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #21
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

G M wrote:
do you mean to say that we are always under one or the other form of 'cognitive bias' from which there is no escape; in other words we/the cognitive process(which is essentially 'division') is always 'conditioned' from which there is never a release.

The "release" from conditioning is self-knowledge. The cognitive process, even with its biases, can be logical and reasonable enough to acknowledge its biases and be aware of their influence. That's as good as it gets. If you want more, the K-world awaits.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #22
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

George Lanroh wrote:
I will work on seeing if I can adjust my writing so you can here me better.

You might want to work on your spelling and your inattention, too.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #23
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Eve G. wrote:
On this forum there is a need to explode and in George's forum there is a need to discuss.

So why do you come here if this is true (which I doubt)?

The intention of the other forums is to maintain decorum. To keep the peace. To allow for the free expression of belief/opinion. No exploration is occuring simply because they keep the "riff-raff" out.

I have visited once or twice to these other forums. The discussion is going round in circles, going nowhere and dying. But people feel good about themselves and so they think/believe there is some movement.

This post was last updated by randal patrick (account deleted) Tue, 09 Apr 2013.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #24
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Satya Prakash wrote:
Why are we incapable of showing any control to save the discussion?

"Well, after years of preaching that to control is wrong now he is advocating it. We must 'control' our egos to 'save' the discussion. Up to now the doc's prescribed choiceless awareness pills. Now it's all a matter of continence."

Paul Davidson

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #25
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

randal patrick wrote:
I have visited once or twice to these other forums. The discussion is goung round in circles, going nowhere and dying. But people feel good about themselves and so they think/believe there is some movement.

They like spinning their wheels. It's harmless fun and they get a kick out of it, so one is tempted not to rain on their parade of nonsense...but the temptation is weak.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #26
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arthur Landon wrote:
It's harmless fun

Pretending to be serious, in order to find something true, is not harmless fun. It's the reason society is all fupped duck.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #27
Thumb_stringio B Teulada Portugal 388 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Satya Prakash wrote:
Almost all topics are deteriorating quickly into verbal fights between few or many posters. Instead of exchanging observations and understandings, posters are exchanging words of Anger, hate, ridicule, intolerance, irritation, violence

i think inquiry (just like energy) can take many forms. what i see is that the irritation, anger, all the banning etc, get repetitive and, ultimately, tiring, but if you pay attention i think you will see there's almost no post from which we can honestly say that we have learned absolutely nothing. all of them show us something about the workings of the human mind, don't they?

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #28
Thumb_stringio G M Norway 81 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Arthur Landon wrote:
The cognitive process, even with its biases, can be logical and reasonable enough to acknowledge its biases and be aware of their influence

Arthur, the above statement can be taken only with a pinch of salt. The reason and logic resulting from cognitive process are most probably tainted by emotions and feelings. The work of neurologist Antonio Damasio, 'Descarte's Error: Emotion,Reason and the Human Brain' discusses this in length.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #29
Thumb_stringio Arthur Landon United States 146 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

G M wrote:
The reason and logic resulting from cognitive process are most probably tainted by emotions and feelings.

Yes, but you can be conscious of emotions and feelings and their effect on your capacity for rational thought. To be reasonable, you have to put your emotions and feelings aside for as long as it takes to think something through.

Don't get too hung up on what experts say about what you can observe for yourself.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2013 #30
Thumb_avatar sunyata sunyata India 86 posts in this forum Offline

Arthur Landon wrote:
Don't get too hung up on what experts say about what you can observe for yourself.

What nonsense you are talking about?

Regards
Sunyata

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