Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Letter to Lidlolady


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Mon, 29 Oct 2012 #1
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dear Lidlolady,

Humans need to communicate; to come to terms, and the terms agreed upon are determined by the parameters of the discussion. The parameters of this discussion forum do not include the far-fetched possibility that Krishnamurti's teaching might be fundamentally unsound, inexplicable to the uninitiated, impracticable, and fantastic. This discussion forum does not consider any of that a real possibility, and does not appreciate the insistence of one or two people that it is not only possible, but most likely.

We have defined our parameters and they can't abide your terms. As Dev said, "This is a Krishnamurti site, for goodness sake!" Yes, it's a cramped little affair, but we like it that way, so please do us the favor of going elsewhere with your Anti-Krish rhetoric. Thankyou.

Sincerely,

Hildegard Beauvoir Mezinsky

President, The Krishnamurti Preservation Society

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Mon, 29 Oct 2012 #2
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
The parameters of this discussion forum do not include the far-fetched possibility that Krishnamurti's teaching might be fundamentally unsound, inexplicable to the uninitiated, impracticable, and fantastic. This discussion forum does not consider any of that a real possibility, and does not appreciate the insistence of one or two people that it is not only possible, but most likely.

It's not that the paramenters don't include the conclusion that K was "wrong". It's just that once you have staked out that position that K has nothing for you there is just no place for you on this forum. This forum, I think, is for people who have not come to that blocking conclusion and are keeping an open mind. It is for people who are still interested in discovering for themselves the truth of what K pointed out.

Your whole persona here is to irritate and to interfer. To divert the conversation whenever possible. Even your "biography" that you are a female K book seller who lives in Hilo, HI is a sneer at Dev's wife who did just that a few years back. Your avatar, the picture of a hag, is meant to sneer and irritate. You appear to be once and always a seething ball of anger and antagonism with boundless energy for irritating others. Do you have a life outside of this forum? Go to it. Live out the end of what's left of your life in some kind of peace and harmony instead of spending so much energy trying to rile others.

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Mon, 29 Oct 2012 #3
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
It is for people who are still interested in discovering for themselves the truth of what K pointed out.

But if you can't communicate what that "truth" is to anyone but fellow believers, it's a bit of a mockery, isn't it?

Jack Pine wrote:
Live out the end of what's left of your life in some kind of peace and harmony instead of spending so much energy trying to rile others.

Jack Pine wrote:
Your whole persona here is to irritate and to interfer. To divert the conversation whenever possible. Even your "biography" that you are a female K book seller who lives in Hilo, HI is a sneer at Dev's wife who did just that a few years back. Your avatar, the picture of a hag, is meant to sneer and irritate. You appear to be once and always a seething ball of anger and antagonism with boundless energy for irritating others. Do you have a life outside of this forum? Go to it. Live out the end of what's left of your life in some kind of peace and harmony instead of spending so much energy trying to rile others.

You've given a lot of energy to building an image of me. I hope it serves you well. Why you would want to create and contemplate something so disagreeable I can't imagine. You must be very dignified to be so offended. I hope things turn out well for you.

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Mon, 29 Oct 2012 #4
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
But if you can't communicate what that "truth" is to anyone but fellow believers, it's a bit of a mockery, isn't it?

It's a complete sham, a total travesty, a proverbial kick in K's crotch, what his followers/believers have done.

But none of that has anything whatsoever to do with krishnamurti the person or anything he may or may not have said.

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Mon, 29 Oct 2012 #5
Thumb_stringio randal patrick United States 3155 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
people who have not come to that blocking conclusion and are keeping an open mind

K, in my view, would laugh in your face and point out that these characteristics don't occure in the human psyche as it is currently situated.

Ascribing psychological features to the mind that only exist in imagination, is a fatal flaw in the human animal.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #6
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Hi everybody,

I'm quite new to this forum and not fully aware of the history of this site. However, lidlo lady wrote:

The parameters of this discussion forum do not include the far-fetched possibility that Krishnamurti's teaching might be fundamentally unsound, inexplicable to the uninitiated, impracticable, and fantastic.

Is this a fact? As someone who is interested in K's teachings, I would have thought that it was a good thing to debate the soundness of what K said. In challenging the teachings, there is surely an opportunity to learn and establish more clarity.

The tone of the exchanges in a debate are, of course, very important. Challenging ideas (or whatever you want to call them) can often be interpreted as a personal attack. Surely if we can maintain a civil tone and a certain degree of mutual respect, we will be capable of debating, as Lidlo Lady put it, "the far-fetched possibility that Krishnamurti's teaching might be fundamentally unsound, inexplicable to the uninitiated, impracticable, and fantastic."

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #7
Thumb_img_0209 Victor C Hunter United States 58 posts in this forum Offline

randal patrick wrote:
K, in my view, would laugh in your face and point out that these characteristics don't occure in the human psyche as it is currently situated.

What you're trying to say is not clear at all. Why would anyone laugh in someone's face for saying not to come to conclusions but keep an open mind? And K, of course, was not the sort to laugh in someone's face or are you an expert on K? Your reply seems mean-spirited at best. Calm down.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #8
Thumb_stringio B Teulada Portugal 700 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
Jack Pine wrote:

It is for people who are still interested in discovering for themselves the truth of what K pointed out.

But if you can't communicate what that "truth" is to anyone but fellow believers, it's a bit of a mockery, isn't it?

Jack said "discover for themselves". You know why that is?

Don't you think that this "communicating truth" to others is what contributes to the whole huge mess people are making of this otherwise incredibly beautiful life and world we find ourselves in, do you?

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #9
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Hi everybody,

I'm quite new to this forum

As someone who is interested in K's teachings, I would have thought that it was a good thing to debate the soundness of what K said. In challenging the teachings, there is surely an opportunity to learn and establish more clarity.

The tone of the exchanges in a debate are, of course, very important.

JP>>>. It is for people who are still interested in discovering for themselves the truth ......

.....Your whole persona here is to irritate and to interfer. To divert the conversation whenever possible.. Your avatar, the picture of a hag, is meant to sneer and irritate. You appear to be once and always a seething ball of anger..... Do you have a life outside of this forum? Go to it. Live out the end of what's left ....

RP>>>...how about seeing myself when I am red in the face with anger..shouting rude names.....


Hildegard of Bingen>>> I,the fiery life of divine essence, am aflame..


Nice idea Sen.
Perhaps emotional stability at the entry level would help move things along a bit smoother,but,on the other hand,the entertainment level might suffer.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #10
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

B Teulada wrote:
Don't you think that this "communicating truth" to others is what contributes to the whole huge mess people are making of this otherwise incredibly beautiful life and world we find ourselves in, do you?

There is communicating what truth is not, but is there such a thing as communicating truth?

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #11
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
But if you can't communicate what that "truth" is to anyone but fellow believers, it's a bit of a mockery, isn't it?

But the point is that you can't communicate truth to another. You have to find out for yourself. You seem to be unable to comprehend that point which may be the basis of your confusion

lidlo lady wrote:
You've given a lot of energy to building an image of me.

Oh, you're much too modest. You have built the image of yourself that I have described all by yourself. I'm just reporting. You can't really dispute what I wrote so you are left with trying to throw it back on me. Nick, give it up. Except for a few sycophants who dutifully pop up to support you you're pretty much finished here. A lot of people are really tired of your same old tired crap.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 30 Oct 2012.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #12
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sean Hen wrote:
Surely if we can maintain a civil tone and a certain degree of mutual respect, we will be capable of debating, as Lidlo Lady put it, "the far-fetched possibility that Krishnamurti's teaching might be fundamentally unsound, inexplicable to the uninitiated, impracticable, and fantastic."

This is how I feel, Sean, and I've been trying to expand the parameters of this discussion forum to include this possibility, but to no avail. But now that Dev has threatened to throw out anyone who speaks disrespectfully to another, it may be possible to talk about whether Krishnamurti was self-deluded or not. I feel that he was and, unlike most forum members, I can elaborate, explain, and provide clear definitive answers to questions, never reverting to vague, religious notions that can't be articulated.

If you're serious about inquiring into The Teaching in this forum, you might want to start with my latest failure to get a consensus definition of "the self". In the recent thread of that name, much was said about the self and how awful and terrible it is, yet no one could define it. Most say that the self is an illusion, but an illusion that has power and authority and must be destroyed or dissolved or some such nonsense.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #13
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
A lot of people are really tired of your same old tired crap.

I think Dev would consider this disrespectful.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #14
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
The parameters of this discussion forum do not include the far-fetched possibility that Krishnamurti's teaching might be fundamentally unsound, inexplicable to the uninitiated, impracticable, and fantastic.

There is no way to deny K teaching, all he says is to find out yourself, all one can reject is conceptualized K.

I think there is no problem when you question K, K himself was against to accept him without questioning, but problem is when you or any shift his focus from questioning to insulting.

I don't know

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #15
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
I think Dev would consider this disrespectful.

Your whole presence here is disrespect.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #16
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
I feel that he was and, unlike most forum members, I can elaborate, explain, and provide clear definitive answers to questions, never reverting to vague, religious notions that can't be articulated.

You haven't done so yet. All you do is try to slice away at something you so clearly have never understood.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #17
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

john Campbell wrote:

...how about seeing myself when I am red in the face with anger..shouting rude names.....

You don't know me and you don't know how hot or cold I was when I wrote the description of Nick. The point is you can't accurately dispute what I have written so you try to divert the facts with an uniformed personal attack.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #18
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
But the point is that you can't communicate truth to another. You have to find out for yourself.

This belief is the heart of the problem here. What you "find out for yourself" may or may not be truth. More than likely it will be what conforms to your bias and prejudice.

As for communication, in this forum it really doesn't matter what anyone says as long as K's authority is never doubted or questioned.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #19
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
unlike most forum members, I can elaborate, explain, and provide clear definitive answers to questions

LOL:)

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #20
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
You haven't done so yet.

To the contrary, I have on many occasions. Refer to the record.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #21
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
What you "find out for yourself" may or may not be truth. More than likely it will be what conforms to your bias and prejudice.

Perhaps this might be a useful bit of information for you to apply to your own thinking process!:)

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #22
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
To the contrary, I have on many occasions. Refer to the record.

Quite..it is chuck full of examples of beliefs formed from conclusions based on opinions..posing as fact!:)

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #23
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
to talk about whether Krishnamurti was self-deluded or not. I feel that he was

So? Move on then?

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #24
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
Perhaps this might be a useful bit of information for you to apply to your own thinking process!:)

It applies to everyone. It's naive to assume that because K instructed you to find out for yourself that you'll find The Truth. What you'll find is what you believe, what you suspect, what you hope, what you fear, etc.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #25
Thumb_stringio Dean R. Smith Canada 1145 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
You haven't done so yet. All you do is try to slice away at something you so clearly have never understood.

Understanding comes in attentiveness and lidlo/nick is not able to pay attention. His approach to mentation is mentation.

"See thought arising; watch it. Without that, all else is illusion and becoming."

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #26
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

lidlo lady wrote:
It's naive to assume that because K instructed you to find out for yourself that you'll find The Truth.

Once again you are twisting K's words...He said negate..he did not instruct..he said look if you want..or don't..thirdly he promised nothing!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #27
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

B Teulada wrote:
Jack said "discover for themselves". You know why that is?

What he said was, "...discover for themselves the truth of what K pointed out".

This is not discovering the truth. More often than not, the truth is discovered serendipitously, stumbled upon; the truth finds you. You can't really find anything - you can only admit to what actually is from one moment to the next. All you can really do is be completely honest, and it's dishonest to say that K pointed to the truth. He pointed to what he believed to be true, and if you want to believe it, too, just be honest about it.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #28
Thumb_snapshot_20130606 john Campbell Canada 535 posts in this forum Offline

<cite:
RP>>>>...how about seeing myself when I am red in the face with anger..shouting rude names.....

JP>>>You don't know me and you don't know how hot or cold I was when I wrote the description of Nick.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #29
Thumb_2495 Kara D. United States 182 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Lidlolady: The general problem here is that none of the guidelines are being enforced. Even as it stands now the guidelines do allow for some degree of critical discussion of K's assertions. I think both sides of this divide can profit from the other provided that the courtesy guideline is applied with consistency.

Do the non critical K readers of this forum really think that there shouldn't be any critical views of K, I wonder? There's a critical book about the Oak Grove School available on amazon.com even as we busily type away in this little fiefdom. That author has been a speaker at K foundation functions rather than being ostracized. Maybe we don't know what Dev's guidelines on this matter even mean.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2012 #30
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Kara D. wrote:
There's a critical book about the Oak Grove School available on amazon.com even as we busily type away in this little fiefdom. That author has been a speaker at K foundation functions rather than being ostracized.

What's the title?

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