Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What others think about oneself


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Sun, 19 Aug 2012 #1
Thumb_stringio Auré Lien France 47 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

The very root of so-called "social phobia" may be the fear of what others may think about oneself, that is, the fear of thoughts about oneself from another, judgements, images, right ?

As what others think about oneself passes through the perception of oneself by others, by mirroring, the thought of oneself being perceived as one thinks to be may be in fact different from what one really is, true?

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Sun, 19 Aug 2012 #2
Thumb_stringio lidlo lady United States 4003 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Auré Lien wrote:
As what others think about oneself passes through the perception of oneself by others, by mirroring, the thought of oneself being perceived as one thinks to be may be in fact different from what one really is, true?

Could you find a more convoluted way to say this?

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Mon, 20 Aug 2012 #3
Thumb_stringio Auré Lien France 47 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Not at this time.

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Mon, 20 Aug 2012 #4
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Auré Lien wrote:
The very root of so-called "social phobia" may be the fear of what others may think about oneself, that is, the fear of thoughts about oneself from another, judgements, images, right ?

Hmm, yes. But can you explain the next sentence please.

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Mon, 20 Aug 2012 #5
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Auré Lien wrote:
The very root of so-called "social phobia" may be the fear of what others may think about oneself, that is, the fear of thoughts about oneself from another, judgements, images, right ?

That's right, Au. But we fear the judgement of others because we have learnt to judge ourselves through their eyes. It is because we have lost touch with ourselves very early on in life that we depend upon others to determine what we are, what we think and how we act. Even in rebellion we are doing so.

And this is done just as vigorously in the K-world where people condemn each other all the time from the K-eyes they figure they are looking out from. For example, we have been pressured by our peers to suppress that range of behaviours they dismiss as 'becoming.' They use scorn and ridicule against anything that apparently contradicts the K tenets of 'right-living.'

I have seen less of this sort of group-censorship method in the K-centres I have been to (although perhaps it is more subtly achieved there) but here the arrogance and supposed superiority is flaunted without mercy.

Lidlo is in reaction against that as he was part of it for too long. But it is HIS actions which are protested against so strongly and not those of others who have been so vile in the name of defending K.

Kinfonet is a social network and thus obeys the same laws as elsewhere, though with added denial.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Mon, 20 Aug 2012.

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Mon, 20 Aug 2012 #6
Thumb_avatar me speak Sri Lanka 392 posts in this forum Offline

Auré Lien wrote:
The very root of so-called "social phobia"

or any other 'phobia' is one's inability to look at totallity of 'oneself' as it is. all the credit for doing this goes to 'me'.

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Mon, 20 Aug 2012 #7
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

me speak wrote:
or any other 'phobia' is one's inability to look at totallity of 'oneself' as it is.

Why do you need to add 'as it is?' This apparently superflous adjunct covers up something. And at the heart of that something is the point at which you have confused yourself. You have spoken more than you know, me.

me speak wrote:
all the credit for doing this goes to 'me'.

Does it? That is a flawed assumption.

It means that you believe that without a me, one would be able to look at the totality of oneself with accuracy. Have you done it?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Mon, 20 Aug 2012 #8
Thumb_stringio Auré Lien France 47 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:

... we fear the judgement of others because we have learnt to judge ourselves through their eyes. It is because we have lost touch with ourselves very early on in life that we depend upon others to determine what we are, what we think and how we act.

Right points, Paul. It seems correct to me. It seems, so I'm not saying that this is totally true. It is open.

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

can you explain the next sentence please.

May I suggest you to read the point of Paul above, Kapila? "we have lost touch with ourselves". I think it is barely the same.

me speak wrote:

The very root of so-called "social phobia"or any other 'phobia' is one's inability to look at totallity of 'oneself' as it is. all the credit for doing this goes to 'me'.

Is the point here 'inability'? So, why 'doing'? 'Me' can't, and isn't that all? Or, is it 'me' conditioning? What does 'me' think? And is it really important what 'me' is thinking?

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Mon, 20 Aug 2012 #9
Thumb_avatar me speak Sri Lanka 392 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
And at the heart of that something is the point at which you have confused yourself. You have spoken more than you know, me.

me is confusion galore because of its quality to project certainity all the way. speaking more than 'me' knows is the norm.

Paul Davidson wrote:
me speak wrote:

all the credit for doing this goes to 'me'.
Does it? That is a flawed assumption.

you think so? why?

Paul Davidson wrote:
It means that you believe that without a me, one would be able to look at the totality of oneself with accuracy. Have you done it?

me doesn't believe in 'without a me' existence.

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Mon, 20 Aug 2012 #10
Thumb_avatar me speak Sri Lanka 392 posts in this forum Offline

Auré Lien wrote:
Is the point here 'inability'?

yes, me is very knowledgeable about its abilities/inabilities.

Auré Lien wrote:
So, why 'doing'?

to take the credit.

Auré Lien wrote:
'Me' can't, and isn't that all

what 'me' can't?

Auré Lien wrote:
Or, is it 'me' conditioning? What does 'me' think?

why ask? is there anything of me that is not conditioned?

Auré Lien wrote:
And is it really important what 'me' is thinking?

what rules and shapes our lives should be important for all.

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Mon, 20 Aug 2012 #11
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

me speak wrote:
all the credit for doing this goes to 'me'.
Does it? That is a flawed assumption.

you think so? why?

Because you credit this 'me' with being the cause of one's inability to look at oneself. This does not open to the possibility that this 'me' arises due to the inability to look at oneself. One cannot see oneself so one invents oneself. That is the other possibility. To choose one possibility over another is biased assumption.

It seems more logical and fitting to assume that any 'me' that arises out of confusion will only add confusion while any 'me' that arises out of one's growing ability see oneself would assume a clarifying role of discerning relationships.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Mon, 20 Aug 2012 #12
Thumb_avatar me speak Sri Lanka 392 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Because you credit this 'me' with being the cause of one's inability to look at oneself. This does not open to the possibility that this 'me' arises due to the inability to look at oneself.

me is already present in all of us. all seeing is colored by me.

Paul Davidson wrote:
It seems more logical and fitting to assume that any 'me' that arises out of confusion will only add confusion

me is the creator of confusion.

Paul Davidson wrote:
while any 'me' that arises out of one's growing ability see oneself would assume a clarifying role of discerning relationships.

if the ability to see is still growing, it is limited ability ruled/colored by me. so, only that clarity which satisfies 'me'.

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Mon, 20 Aug 2012 #13
Thumb_stringio Auré Lien France 47 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

me speak said:

to take the credit

What does 'me' means by "to take the credit"?

me speak asked:

what 'me' can't?

'me' can't look at totality of 'oneself' as it is, right?

me speak asked:

why ask? is there anything of me that is not conditioned?

Does 'me' means that 'I' is wrong?

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Mon, 20 Aug 2012 #14
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

me speak wrote:
me is the creator of confusion.

'me speak' turns out to be tired old K-speak.

If your 'me' is the creator of confusion, what created your 'me?'

Please don't say me created itself. That would make me God.

Then you say, yes, to me, me is god.

and so on

and so on

and so on

But when it comes down to it, it is the same tired out crap.

So, what created your 'me?' How did your 'me' come about? Was it the fall from grace? Or perhaps the Devil?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Mon, 20 Aug 2012 #15
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1311 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
So, what created your 'me?' How did your 'me' come about? Was it the fall from grace? Or perhaps the Devil?

The 'me' or "I process" begins obviously as a child and comes about naturally as a way to deal with the confusion of the world it finds itself in. It is self-protection literally and how it is constructed depends on its environment and its inclinations. It is a process of acquiring self-esteem without which the person is psychologically crippled. The stronger the sense of self-esteem the more possibilities that are open to the person in the world. With a low self esteem all efforts to find the "spiritual",the "transcendant" are searches to enhance one's own sense of self,obviously,and to strengthen the ego rather than the necessary undermining of it. The ego must be undermined if it is ever to be transcended but the circus begins in the attempts (teachings) whose goal is to bring about this transformation, this awakening. K's teaching I believe is for this purpose. And for me personnally it was the most interesting but it may be that while the ideas "sound" so good and "ring so true" the "revolution" they aim to bring about does not occur. He blames the failure on a lack of "passion without motive",and many other things. I wouldn't know but I haven't seen evidence in myself of change from a long study of his and other's work and not in other people either. So the "Devil" or "fall from grace" maybe behind our situation, those are just words ultimately, but for whatever the cause, we are what we are.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 20 Aug 2012.

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Mon, 20 Aug 2012 #16
Thumb_avatar me speak Sri Lanka 392 posts in this forum Offline

Auré Lien wrote:
What does 'me' means by "to take the credit"?

'me' is suffering from social phobia.

Auré Lien wrote:
'me' can't look at totality of 'oneself' as it is, right?

me wouldn't agree.

Auré Lien wrote:
Does 'me' means that 'I' is wrong?

'me' is always right...and so is 'I'.

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Mon, 20 Aug 2012 #17
Thumb_avatar me speak Sri Lanka 392 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
'me speak' turns out to be tired old K-speak.

your judgement misses the boasting.

Paul Davidson wrote:
If your 'me' is the creator of confusion, what created your 'me?'

you have a me. let it do some work.

Paul Davidson wrote:
Then you say, yes, to me, me is god.
and so on
and so on
and so on
But when it comes down to it, it is the same tired out crap.
So, what created your 'me?' How did your 'me' come about? Was it the fall from grace? Or perhaps the Devil?

your tired 'me' is not entertaining enough at the moment. talk to you later.

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