Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.


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Sat, 19 Nov 2011 #211
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

jean-m girard wrote:
The self is non existing?

Once there is comlete understanding of the self from moment to moment, it is no more of the nature of self projection outwards as we usealy know and which we assocaite it as the self/psychological I/ego(the centre gets dismentaled simultaniously), it reduces to a pointer on the consciousness of the individual as long as the life in the organic body exist, which remains harmless.In relation to the self that we know normally, this situation is some thing like the self is non-existant.

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This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Sat, 19 Nov 2011.

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Sun, 20 Nov 2011 #212
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
self/psychological I/ego(the centre gets dismentaled simultaniously), it reduces to a pointer on the consciousness of the individual as long as the life in the organic body exist, which remains harmless

Well said, we could also call the tip of consciousness, with out the residue of the self? Consciousness, being the accumulation of all our live?
The tip of consciousness being the means we have for all relationship, being the receiver and the sender, the correspondent, being the attentiveness, the awareness between the outer and inner?

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

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Sun, 20 Nov 2011 #213
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

What is the "self"? It is the body/brain/mind of the individual. When we speak of "ourselves," this is what we mean, no more, no less.

But the "psychological 'I'" is different. The "I" is a construct, an idea, a concept in the mind. We confuse this imaginary being with ourselves. The defense and enhancement of this chimera is the source of all of our problems.

The self is who we are -- together with intelligence in the present moment. These are the two parts of the human being.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Sun, 20 Nov 2011.

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Mon, 21 Nov 2011 #214
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Once there is comlete understanding of the self from moment to moment,

So there is no more psychological 'I'

max greene wrote:
These are the two parts of the human being.

We are the self (clear) or the consciousness and you are saying
together with intelligence in the present moment. Are those the two parts that you are talking about? Which is what we realy are?

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

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Mon, 21 Nov 2011 #215
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
What is the "self"? It is the body/brain/mind of the individual. When we speak of "ourselves," this is what we mean, no more, no less.

Organic body( with life)/brain/mind are( contents of consciousness) not separate from the consciousness ( including the individual's consciousness),I think that this in no way contrdicts your statment.

There is no objection to your rest of the posting#213

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This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Mon, 21 Nov 2011.

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Mon, 21 Nov 2011 #216
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

I think I reacted to the over dominace of an ambistiousman in the bussiness world in one the postings, instead I thought that a self-discovered entraprenueour would serve our purpose in a bussiness world. Is that really possible in the present situation?Keeping apart whether we can find one such person presently or not, let us examin how such a person is going to make a difference in the bussiness world.

In the process of discovering himself to be a natural entraprenueour, basically he is steading his nature, and his relationship with society and environment.An idea of entraprenuourship originates out of his interactions with them and that idea is ultimatly going to become a bussiness entraprise is his discovery which he would realise only afterwards and not as pre-planed ambistious one , and not like the attidue of an ambistiousman whose nature is to accumalate wealth, and dominate the markets.Then bussiness is living and not other way round.

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Mon, 21 Nov 2011 #217
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

jean-m girard wrote:
We are the self (clear) or the consciousness and you are saying
together with intelligence in the present moment. Are those the two parts that you are talking about? Which is what we realy are?

I am saying that the self, which is the body/brain/mind, together with intelligence in the present moment, makes up the individual. These are the only two actual components of the human being. What we call the "I" is merely an image in the mind that the self constructs. Just as we say that "the word is not the thing," we can also say that "the 'I,' (the image) is not the self."

But all problems begin when we do, in fact, mistake the "I" for the self. This mistake is the primary problem of our human existence. Perhaps it is the only problem.

You say, ". . . or the consciousness . . . " But what is consciousness? Separation is implied in "consciousness." There is (1) the entity who is conscious and there is (2) that of which the entity is conscious. As examples, "I am conscious that I am cold"; or "I am conscious that I don't like something"; or "I am conscious that I remember something"; or "I am conscious that I have joy in a sense of the timeless." It seems to me that there is always the "I" with consciousness.

What happens to consciousness when, or if, the psychological "I" is absent? It would seem that the self (the body/brain/mind) either senses or remembers and there is action of intelligence in the present moment. This action will be the appropriate action since there is nothing to distort (no "I") between the sensing/remembering and the action.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Mon, 21 Nov 2011.

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Tue, 22 Nov 2011 #218
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
I think I reacted to the over dominace of an ambistiousman in the bussiness world in one the postings, instead I thought that a self-discovered entraprenueour would serve our purpose in a bussiness world. Is that really possible in the present situation?Keeping apart whether we can find one such person presently or not, let us examin how such a person is going to make a difference in the bussiness world.

I think that a good business man that would discover him self trough K teaching, would probably try to line up his product so that it could response to his inspiration. A good business man, understand that he has to believe in his product in other to sell it and be a success. Artist do that all the time, they want their product to represent them, so they keep modifying until it translate exactly what they are or feel. I have personally modified the subject my painting since I started to read K. So when I show my painting and people show interest, wand to talk about them, my response is perfectly line up with my inspiration, there no contradiction. Do I make a difference with my customer, I think it does. Creativity usually touches people. I would not put every business in the same categories, may be art has a class of it own.

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

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Tue, 22 Nov 2011 #219
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Then bussiness is living and not other way round.

When you said that in a earlier post, it hit me a in a strange way. It was the first time I thought, about what you said. Is it possible? Business is living? Is there a live to business? Business is also part of the relationship that we have between each other. Is my relationship with other can growth? If I know you more and more and we have the same basic understanding about life, his our relationship will growth? Business is also relationship isn’t it?

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

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Tue, 22 Nov 2011 #220
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

Is a donation to kinfonet, a business transation?

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

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Tue, 22 Nov 2011 #221
Thumb_deleted_user_med Daniel Dan France 251 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

jean-m girard wrote:
I think that a good business man

this is not possible..there will never be a good business man for me and probably is an absolute fact ,business lies in the hidden desire of a frightened man who is escaping the fact he is going to die , so escaping the absolute fact of no continuity...so seeking for security , so for me, this drives to insanity of a mind fighting what is....

cheers
Dan the man..

Dan.

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Tue, 22 Nov 2011 #222
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
But what is consciousness? Separation is implied in "consciousness.

Indeed, it is so.You are taking the apperent/implied separation as it is, where as I am viewing the consciousness as one.I think That separation is due to the psychological I, which we know it as not true. Therefore when we are dealing the consciousness or the self we do come across this type of paradoxical situation, where we need to be carefull dealing with them.

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Tue, 22 Nov 2011 #223
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

jean-m girard wrote:
Business is also relationship isn’t it.

All human relationships are part of human living, so a bussiness relationship is also a living relationship.Therefore bussiness is a living process. If we make living a bussiness process, then that relationship is between the profit monging image of the bussiness man and the image of the customer who is desparate seeking pleasure and intolerent of pain.

The basic principle on which bussiness runs on the demand and supply, where the demand is a fuction of the neccessity of the customer, and the supply is purely dependent on the available resources in the bussiness area.

If we relax the conditions on the demand and supply, by extending the domain of demands to all wants and aspirationsa of people, and the domain of supply to generating the the resources to meet the demand, with additional condition , profiting from whole process, then the bussiness is made on the basis of an idea and not on sound principles of economics.All the ideas show some results intailly when the means are taken care, once the greed of the bussiness people goes unchecked, the false of the idea is out of its closed box, effecting the all the people involved in that bussiness activity.

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Tue, 22 Nov 2011 #224
Thumb_deleted_user_med Daniel Dan France 251 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

business is simply the idea to make profit on others...why hide that behind clever words????
at the origin the business man is a thieve of the farmers work for example..

Dan.

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Tue, 22 Nov 2011 #225
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
business is simply the idea to make profit on others...why hide that behind clever words????

You just frighten me out of my nuts, my dear friend.Is there no way out?

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Tue, 22 Nov 2011 #226
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

jean-m girard wrote:
Is a donation to kinfonet, a business transation?

The commen interest is Jk's teachings, we need to sustain it for our own interest.There is no profit componet in it.There is living relationship.I wonder if it is really bussiness?

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Tue, 22 Nov 2011 #227
Thumb_deleted_user_med Daniel Dan France 251 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
business is simply the idea to make profit on others...why hide that behind clever words????

You just frighten me out of my nuts, my dear friend.Is there no way out?

dear friend, this is all about not seeking for a way out through thinking MAYBE

...the fact may be that we all mainly if not only profit on others when possible, psychologically and materially...I say to me, Dan after having tried many "doing" stay with this as a fact...

Again each time we just can see the effects of business on the world , it is there for all to see.This is a beginning which needs to understand the propaganda, it needs some intelligent awareness to get the point of what is going on in the so called outer world...and what you see is really disturbing, which is logical because we don't tackle one single problem but live in personal solutions ,where the fight starts , the violence, the competition, the war..

I totally object to the so called fact that we are violent because of our animal nature, we are violent by escaping life which creates pain from which we try to escape which creates more pain from which......and so on..

There is a projection in the outer of the state of the "inner" mind....and the state of all minds is to be frightened , in sorrow , in suffering ...and this is producing some effects like suicide ( another form of escape) , depression, Alzheimer disease( my view), the idea to forget , to compensate, to attenuate the immense sorrow of man, business is just one of the escape from life......

it will never be wise...

Having said that, whatever the outer circumstances are, they mainly will be used as a scapegoat from sorrow if I am living in this analytical brain only, the one which cannot take facts of life like death..

If there is a way out , the fact hidden behind business will speak to you.
In no circumstances to seek out for a solution is wise, it is even precisely THE problem is what I see now so far..

from today's quote, some of it :


  • the bliss of creative thinking, which can exist only when the mind and heart begin to free themselves through conflict, through constant awareness, from the stupidities of the past and from those that are being built up. Then only is there the ecstasy of that which is true.(you must know that k means the whole mind by using the word heart, I red it in a quote long ago here)

cheers

Dan..

Dan.

This post was last updated by Daniel Dan (account deleted) Tue, 22 Nov 2011.

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Tue, 22 Nov 2011 #228
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Dan Mohad Dib wrote:
depression, Alzheimer disease( my view), the idea to forget , to compensate, to attenuate the immense sorrow of man, business is just one of the escape from life......

That is one is trying to avoid " what is" and go after what one would/should like to be.This is the basis for an ambistious man to spring in a docile world.It is no inteligence to motivate oneself to acquire wealth and dominate the markets, except manupulate the markets with cunning ideas, which we call smartness and the inteligence.That self-centred way of doing things show up at the end with a contridiction by closing the entire bussiness activity.

The self discovered entraprenueour has his interest on the relation with society, so his attention on the relationship which will result in a fair bussiness venture,and that is inteligence.This is precisely what today's quote seems to suggest.

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Tue, 22 Nov 2011 #229
Thumb_deleted_user_med Daniel Dan France 251 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
The self discovered entraprenueour has his interest on the relation with society, so his attention on the relationship which will result in a fair bussiness venture,and that is inteligence.This is precisely what today's quote seems to suggest.

..for me I have seen long time ago that fair business will never exist....but I am not interested in showing all that..it is seen or not...

::))

Dan.

This post was last updated by Daniel Dan (account deleted) Tue, 22 Nov 2011.

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Tue, 22 Nov 2011 #230
Thumb_stringio B Teulada Portugal 700 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

This thread is so long ... I don't know if we are still at the walking stage or if everybody has flown somewhere else already.
I have always loved to walk. I walk for an hour every day before goint to work. I wake up real early and enjoy sunrise over the Atlantic Ocean when the sky is clear, with its gentle breeze, its mind blowing shades of blue and green, its sound, the seagulls; some days it's just me and the dark clouds, the tremendous strength of the waves, sprays of sea water over my face and everything around getting ready for a storm.
I walk 2 or 3 hours or more on weekends.

I once read that Gandhi loved to walk.
And then I read that JK loved to walk.
I then I understood that maybe I don't just love to walk; I need it. And maybe so did these two great men.

Before "meeting" JK I thought I just needed the physical exercise; I suspected there was something more to it than just that though.
I began to realise that something happened inside my head while I walked.
Anger and frustration dissolved and I managed to reorganize ideas. Some became clearer, some just vanished. The one that vanished - I noticed - were usually the useless or negative ones.

I now think that these walks are a kind of meditation (In the sense K meant): the more I walk, the less i think and the less I think the easier it is to be aware of where thoughts spring from; looking around and totally enjoying what i see, becoming a part of it, rather, replaces the noise of an otherwise very chattery mind.

T

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Tue, 22 Nov 2011 #231
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

I really do not remember when exactly I started going for a walk, it happened as naturally as any thing that would happen so .I became conscious of so called walking only when people started questioning why do I have to walk?Then I started finding reasons for it. It showed me that I can stay alone, but that does not mean I do not mingle with people, only thing is, I never ask for it.Why I do not know.

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Tue, 22 Nov 2011 #232
Thumb_stringio B Teulada Portugal 700 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I think the people who like to walk in pairs or groups or whatever are those for whom walking is merely about exercising.
Personally I never explain why I walk; peple think it is to keep fit; if I said it is to empty my mind and see clearly I know they would not understand.

T

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Tue, 22 Nov 2011 #233
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Alone walk would be a meditative one , would not go well with many people.For sure individual would have ample opurtunities to observe their own reactions, otherwise in our daily routen life while mixing with people we normally get carried away by those reactions.There would be several occations where reactions could work out to their full strength, so that it is not required to record them again in the memory or repeat them again, once the individual pays absolute attention to those reactions.

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Thu, 24 Nov 2011 #234
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

The most of the reactions that poure out during a long walk, are repeatitive,yet the mind enages them as if they are new, one never get bored.If it so gets bored , it picks up another, but never seem to stop identifying with the thoughts.Any number of expalations do not stop the thought from arising, only sheer helplessness and staying with it , should make one passionate, and finally awareness bloosomes and understanding prevail.

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Fri, 25 Nov 2011 #235
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Any number of expalations do not stop the thought from arising, only sheer helplessness and staying with it , should make one passionate, and finally awareness bloosomes and understanding prevails.

There were number of occasions when an individual must have been helpless,but the experience of staying with the helplessness is very rare, no body expects either, intead people expect to make a case out of such a situation.Mere information that hanging on to helplessness would solve the problem is not correct, that is in fact a subtle form of hope and continuetion of self.It is not helplessness, but sorrowfull.The self must have lost all its ideas of restoring itself to its ideals/desires/desparetions and hope of a new life, and reflect on its limitations , and must subside without any hope, then awareness works on its own .That is presisely what todays quote seems to suggest.Does this come with practice?

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Fri, 25 Nov 2011 #236
Thumb_stringio B Teulada Portugal 700 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

By "helplessness" do you mean passivity?

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Fri, 25 Nov 2011 #237
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

B Teulada wrote:
By "helplessness" do you mean passivity

Accepting the preceedings of thought/reaction/happenings without registance.In fact you are right , it means passivity.

My personal view would be to allow the psychological energy behind the psychological entities such as thought/reaction/ happenings to work out to their completion, so that there is no trace of them in the memory any more.It is possible if we pay attention to the thought process without resorting to condamation,evaluvation,judging,identification.

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Fri, 25 Nov 2011 #238
Thumb_stringio B Teulada Portugal 700 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Yes, I understand. But then the old question would arise of who is the one that is paying attention?

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Fri, 25 Nov 2011 #239
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

B Teulada wrote:
But then the old question would arise of who is the one that is paying attention?

The thought the "I", pays attention to itself, so that it subsides to premier energy level. Every thought is in fact a self projection, so when the attention is paid to this self projection of thought, the thought subsides to its origin.And attention is the essence of all energies. Self-projection takes maximum energy, if that subsides, the attention is in its full form. If we do not really get to know this, there is ample chance for a paradoxical situation to prevail. Must be carefull.

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Sat, 26 Nov 2011 #240
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Take for instance the public talk from which today's quote is taken:

..........It is to be lived.It demands great persistance and constant perposefullness...

Most people can take this quote for granted, for openly supporting the idea of making an effort to become immortral.Does it really mean that illusions do not exist?Orlack of understanding?We must be clear of psychological becoming, and intelligence, if we are to understand.

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