Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.


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Sat, 22 Oct 2011 #121
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Why not get clearance from the same.

male pride!

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 23 Oct 2011 #122
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

I am suupose to write what actually influenced my a stroll in the day.I was reading the JK's book titled"The Nature of The Mind".JK had something to say on the attention,which engaged me while I was walking.

.....So,the investigation of unconscios becomes unnecessary, has no meaning whatsoever if the word is not the thing,and yet you are observing.Then,what takes place is complete attention; then you are looking without any distraction, which is total attention.Total attention is essence of the consciousness and beyond.That is, you are only conscious when there is friction;otherwise there is no consciousness.......It is this friction that causes, that brings into being, consciousness.

We have all ready posted in one of these postings that, the essence of all energys is the attention. The emptyness is energy

Attention, energy alone seem to cover the known& and the unknown.Is this true?

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Sun, 23 Oct 2011 #123
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Attention, energy alone seem to cover the known& and the unknown.Is this true?

For K it seems to have been true, from what he tells us. For us, the attention is predominantly in the verbal conscious.

I was lying in the sunshine in my garden today considering just that. I came upon the following:

Let's say that you have a problem worrying you, such as you and your job offer. Thought/feeling is hard at it, trying to make sense of the problem (for better or for worse, but this is what happens). Then you start wondering how it may affect your pension entitlement, so you start doing your sums. What happens right there?

A space is cleared in the mind so you can have a clear surface to do the moths. All the emotional and pensive things are not allowed into this void. Only, for your purpose, the numbers are allowed in so the calculation can flow unimpeded, right? I don't know if you will feel the sense of what I am saying. You have to feel it and affirm it.

It is like within the mind a bubble is formed. The bubble has a membrane that only allows the mathematical data through. It works through 'extrusion.' Do you know that word? It seems to me to fit exactly. A void is formed and attention goes into that void and operates in that. You do not notice your environment, the itch in your left foot. You are not now worrying about the job, there is a certain relief from that. All those things do not enter the bubble and your attention is there. It is almost a physical space. Do you get the feel of it?

Then you are in there, busy doing the calculations, cut off from distractions, which is probably what you wanted.

Having seen that, I took a step back. I understood that attention is captured in a process of extrusion. In this case it was to do a calculation, but it struck me that this is what thought is doing all the time. And when I took the problem outwards another step I saw (witnessed) that this is what mind does all the time. Mind, which encompasses all the mental activity including thought, feeling, sensation etc, creates a void in order to 'think.' Attention goes to that. Facts, as images, are introduced into that space and then manipulated. That seems OK.

But attention becomes trapped in that space and rarely is present in the body. Then, in that thought.feeling space another specialised void is opened up so that intellectual operations can work unimpeded by feelings, and attention goes into that.

So that attention is drawn into every-narrowing fields. In some people the attention is habitually drawn into intellect while for others, it is mainly in feeling or in sensation.

It is not these process of extrusion that are wrong, it seems they are inevitable, but the fact that we become fixed in patterns and attention becomes limited.

I wonder if, when you look, you will see the same thing?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 23 Oct 2011 #124
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
It is not these process of extrusion that are wrong, it seems they are inevitable, but the fact that we become fixed in patterns and attention becomes limited.

I remeber have read in the same book, where Jk has said that such type of distartions,be ignored and observe, then the inattention makes way for attention.I am in search of that quote,any way.Even if such distartions are there attention could be there if there is no end result expected.

I do have some sort of experience like that, may not be exactly like that.The verbalization is there in such acts.If such an effort (extrusion) is really made I get a the feeling of stiffness in the meddle of the chest. I attribute it to the center, whole physical body feels the sensation.

Your posting is ,it appears quite significant for looking at where we stand on these teachings ofjk.We shall exchange for sure.

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Sun, 23 Oct 2011 #125
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

K was asked what to do about distractions and he answered by questioning what is a distraction. He said the very idea of a distraction only comes up when we are trying to concentrate because in concentration we are trying to exclude.

He said that if thoughts come in then follow them and get to the end of them.

Elsewhere he said that in practical affairs it is often necessary to concentrate and to exclude. For instance, if you were a surgeon then you have to exclude everything else while operating. You may be at it for six hours and you can't even go to the bathroom in that time.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Mon, 24 Oct 2011 #126
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

The observation of surroundings remained steady without much disturbance.I was told to hold my attention to the objects very near me and observe them completely,extend the gaze to the objects at far of places and hold the observation for some time, feel the space around the objects along the path of my vision,and return the gaze along the same path to myself. extend the same moment with in the mind.

The exercise went well as far as external moment of observation is concerned, once inner movoment is concerned, it ended up with stiff neck and chest.Basically this requires slowing down of flow of thoughts from the mind mind.The idea is to have feel of the space in the mind.The mind seem to slow down its flow of thoughts, once it is known that mind has been influenced by the senate values(as choiceless awareness).The mind offered resistance .The exercise does not tell anything other than, requirement of space in the mind.

nothing

This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Mon, 24 Oct 2011.

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Tue, 25 Oct 2011 #127
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

It is just day before big festival the Deepavali(festival of lights),the city is getting ready for the big event.The flower market was getting filled up with trucks full of loads of flowers of defferent veraitys ofdefferent colours at the expence of the streets infront of the market, which were getting jam packed with them.There was vertually trafic jam.It took me quite long time to get past the market.These flowers are mostly used for decorating the out doors.And it is festival of burning krakers.There was a take over of the markets by the tradition, which generally forgotten in the changes that so called the libralization , that started in early nities suppose to have brought in by market forces.Market thoroughly exploited the tradition to make the selling a big sensation and a near looting in the name of marketing.

The wealth,vanity and life style go hand in hand, allow the man dip deep down into the sea of insensitvity, with a feel of joy.The pinch of it is felt when creditors/credit card bills make their presence felt in the living rooms of the people.I carried Rs 200 with me to purchage fruits and vegitables.I had no money left to pay the auto,but go up the flat get money to pay the same.Normally I don't carry any thing with me while I go for a walk.Once I came to the house,I had nothing except the traditon.Eat tradition,talk traditon, and sleep tradition.

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Wed, 26 Oct 2011 #128
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Walking down the flyover, which leads to the international air port, it suddenly sprang in my mind about the centre of the self which jk insists on its dismantleing. When ever a serious method or practice of observation is done, there is stiff resistance felt, and its impact on the body is at the middle of the chest.If we have no sense of jk's centre, most probable we would take that to be a result of acidity.It could still be so. One needs to be on guard for such false assumptions.

The centre, psychologically, is taken as' me ','my',& 'mine'.Why should it be felt at the middle of the chest, is only an individual experience.What ever it donets mentaly is imporatant.Do they sybolically denote, the process of identification, claim, and aquireing?

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Wed, 26 Oct 2011 #129
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

The tradition gives ample scope for identification, to claim, and aquire things of materail & psychological things.Today being the deevali, a big event in the life of the people in the subcontinent. The bussiness community has lot of things to identify, claim, and aquire during the festival.This is performed with the concept of good winning over the evil.The end result is that peole float in self-estime, vanity, compititiveness,and froud.Who has won over? The good or bad? The insensitvity at its height.Is there any body who thinks this way?

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Wed, 26 Oct 2011 #130
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
.Why should it be felt at the middle of the chest, is only an individual experience.

I get that feeling of tightening of the chest whenever I deal with things that create psychological stress. Some people get it semi-permanently, causing very shallow breathing and I have felt, in such people as I have known with this difficulty, that it is to do with fear of death and its converse, fear of life. It is to do with fear of letting go of the breath as one cannot be sure, psychologically, if the next one will come.

But generally, there is this thoracic constriction brought about by the autonomic nervous system (sympathetic division), which, if it becomes habitual, can bias the whole cranio-sacral rhythm towards an inward position. Nervously fearful people often seem to be curled inwardly.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Wed, 26 Oct 2011.

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Wed, 26 Oct 2011 #131
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

In reality it is not necessary that the so called centre for the self should exist at the point mentioned, it could any where in the upper part of(chest and above) body, logically viewing it.There is a psychological centre with three independent psychi foreces(thoughts. 'me','my',&'mine') working simultaniously could result in single one, that place becomes the centre.The focus of our conciousness is normally head down the neck to the chest.Thrust could be there at those places.The quality of the experiences reported by us seem to be defferent, but the location does not seem to vary much.

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This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Wed, 26 Oct 2011.

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Sat, 29 Oct 2011 #132
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

The craving, grasping, wanting is the our normal life that goes about.The cravings are dependent on the sensations that arosed out of our sense persuptions which are of short duration, these have to be grasped immedaitly , before they wear out , a desire or a want has to come into force ,and acted up on.If the sequence of events are as described, the action is complete and its no reaction.If the attention is thorough at the stage of the action process described above, the individual is with the action, othewise the action results as reaction.If the thought inteferences with the coures of action, the individual has to use memory to get what he has so desire.The naive cravings which gave rise to an experience of joy, are recorded in memory, and thought recalls it.The original sensations of cravings die out, only its recordings in memory start working.It is strong desire to repeat the experience forces the course of action, then carvings and want become interchangeble, which makes the the course of action a reaction because the memory is at its full influence, unlike the action which mostly depended on the virgin sensations,The mental conflict is in its formation.

When we keep track of the reactions with a steady attention, the force of the want(as thought process) works out, the raction stops.It is a question of allowing the sensations either of the action or reaction work out brings the better undestanding completely.

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Sun, 30 Oct 2011 #133
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
living is bussiness process or bussiness is living process.

I think or I believe that the most appropriate statement about it would be is that:

For an individual bussiness is a living process if and only if the individual is not ambitious.The meaning of this in plain words is:
Living is bussiness and also bussiness is living if the individual is not ambitious.Is this a valid statement?

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Mon, 31 Oct 2011 #134
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Living is bussiness and also bussiness is living if the individual is not ambitious.

living is action and action is living if the individual is not ambitious.

gb
Does it reflect today's quote?
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Mon, 31 Oct 2011.

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Mon, 31 Oct 2011 #135
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

ganesan balachandran wrote:
Does it reflect today's quote?

Thanks, for reminding me. I have just observed it.I suppose you have noticed it correct.Most ambitious people have their attention and energies on the end results, and lose track of their action.It is no inteteligence on their part,as at the end it is only conflict that they are left with.

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Mon, 31 Oct 2011 #136
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

ganesan balachandran wrote:
living is action and action is living if the individual is not ambitious.

Sounds a better statment on the issue under consideration, but with a small pointer, all ambitious people are after power, that is for sure; do all of them go after the bussiness, I wonder?What bothers a persona like me is; those people who are in bussiness, in fact the big ones,what happens if they are too ambitious?

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Tue, 01 Nov 2011 #137
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

The whole week the mind was engaged with living and bussiness while I went out for walking.As far as bussiness is concerned I am well aware that I am reactive.I was reading the Pual Krugman's column in the Hindu News paper in which the politicians in USA how they react to creating jobs on the basis of keynesians idea of creating jobs.The politicians can settle their dispute where to use the Keynesian principle, but the problem is with the voters who have become well aware that jobs can be created by the government useing the same principle to their advantage.Now where is the govenement is going to use its keynesian principle? In building bridges or in making bombes so that there would be no defence cuts.Voter could insist on invest public money in areas where there are more jobs, and better utilized, unlike the defence investments which would make the rich look cheerfull.

When there is self-centred activity, most reasonable& logical people turn out be most hypocritical useing same idea as the keynesian model for creating jobs.

This my reaction to the idea that living is bussiness.

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This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Tue, 01 Nov 2011.

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Wed, 02 Nov 2011 #138
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

I was asked,"If you do not want an ambitiousman in the bussiness, whome do you want? a saint? and what is going to do?"

Well, what should I say except that a man who discovered himself that he has a natural quality of entrepreneurship with complete understanding of the enveronment around him and the relationship he has with the society, till his new found discovery is over taken by the senate values such as dominace, and power.Why do I hate the word ambitious?The simple reason is being that, basically an individual with an emptyness of the mind ,the vecant mind,a simple one ,he would not be in a position to acept the the that status of mind,and becomes restless and runs way from that position and starts filling up his mind with ideas, desires, and things of importance.There is no quality of entrepreneurship in it.They can always spoil the whole bussiness with their empty hearts.

Isn't it true that most successfull entrapreneurs were never knew that they would become big bussinessmen till they became one by their sheer bussiness nature they had with them? That sounds bussiness is living process. Can we say the same in case of ambitiousman?

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Wed, 02 Nov 2011 #139
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Interstingly todays quote seems to suggest that asking for purpose of living is that you are not with the living that is there right at this moment, but asking for some thing which is not there.That has its own problems, not that one should not ask for such things.The most ambitious people are not that sensitive to observe such facts of the mind and lose the inteligence in present, and they are driven by the force of their desire to aquire things to avoid the emptyness of their (minds)hearts.The mind becomes busy with no space in it,no ammount of wealth seems to keep the heartfull,leaving the heart empty still.A contridiction.

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Thu, 03 Nov 2011 #140
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Today's quote seems to suggest the typical state of the mind of an individual who stands in market place, whether he is a custumer who came to quench his cravings, inspite of his desire is yet to take firm shape in the mind, or the highly motivated sales man, who has no other motive except dominate, controll, and gain out of the whole process of bussiness he is going to do in the market.Both of them are over swayed by the turmoil they face mentally.They pay no attention to the consciousness which contains this turmoil.In fact they are the turmoil, they separate themselves from the turmoil and indulge in bussiness.That is what makes their mental status would not be depicting the living process but the materail process.That brings in the contridiction in experienceing(where the aspired pleasure is denied and dreaded pain is served).

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This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Thu, 03 Nov 2011.

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Fri, 04 Nov 2011 #141
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

The consciousness is same for all the mankind.One is conscious of himself at this moment,may reacted to some thing he has observed in present based past record stored in the memory, is all due to the consciousness(pure).It is the consciousness which makes one identify with organic body, brings in the self/ I-thought/ me/ ego/time/ thought.The past, present, future are all relative to the individual's status psychologically.The only the way in which we have the feel of consciousness is in the thought form, which gives its effect on the object observed through the senses.For this simple reason involvement of thought allways trys to brings in past, and highly dependent on the memory/ brain.The turmail, the end(ing/thought), and you/me/he are all from the consciousness.The division is done by the individual because of the fragment call "me".The ending of "m" is consequence of understanding the nature of the self.The thought must find its place by sudsideing its nature of self projection.

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Sat, 05 Nov 2011 #142
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

I have been walking for years together,with so many thoughts pouring out of the mind, without a trace of them and the content they contained in them,and did I ever get a thought like the quote of today?That shows the dominace of the thought.Unless this dominance subsides I shall not get the nights sleep.

Indeed all thoughts centred around me.The "me" becomes all important.I wonder if there is a visable know of the actor and action, unleless I am compeled by the feeling of pleasure or pain which again a thought.It is for sure that thought may contain any content with it, its projection is from a centre of identification as "me" or "I"".Can not thought put facts without a self projection?There are two parts of thought, 1) content of thought,2)self projection as I-thought.Why should there be this division?This division is extended to observer& observation, apart from thought and thinker.

Is it enough if I can pay full attention to this self projection?The effort also involves the self.The self has the habit of expecting a result such that ,result fulfills the pleasure and prevents the pain.This is the source of the problem for conflict.the urge for pleasure and pain are the senations that an individual has to face no matter who he is.

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This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Sat, 05 Nov 2011.

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Sun, 06 Nov 2011 #143
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
This is the source of the problem for conflict.the urge for pleasure and pain are the senations that an individual has to face no matter who he is.

All reactions are have their base in the sensation that individuals have from instant to instant for a short duration which give rise to our cravings and avertions, likes and dislikes,and opposites.because of short duration of these sensations, their effect and essence is registered in the memory and stored , giving rise to the recollection of replica of what was done previously, as the past.This whole process becomes the process of the self which we are normally obsessed with.

At our active and alert and conscious level, we would have no direct axis to the sensetions except through the reactions represented by the thoughts.The only way that the sensations work out completely without its trace in the memory is pay attention to thought process without interference of the self with its assumed masters role.The self projection role of the "I-thought" dominates the entire process that goes on, giving rise to the parodaxical situation.

So long the life exists in the organic body , the sensations are sustained, the process of self of sustains from instant to instant.The self may not exist as we assume, but it has to be known from moment to moment without allowing the past to over dominate the psychological issues.

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Sun, 06 Nov 2011 #144
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

The quote of today suggests that out of theself protective nature are born the spirituvality and economics.The self- protective nature is because of the consciousness of the viod or emptyness of the heart.The individual trys to fill it up with ideas, planes, and god and the rest.The problems are born out of the self-protective nature of the individuals.

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Mon, 07 Nov 2011 #145
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

We all indulge in self-protection in order that we may have security physically as well as psychologicaly.We feel that security is ensured when we identify with some thing,and start acquireing wealth,just to feel that your some thing in society.In fact this is the basis of indulgance of an ambitiousman. The question is, will this mentality of the (bussiness)/ ambitiousman really gives the assumed security?The highly self-protective nature of the individual gives in for separateness attitude, which creats conflict betweeen him and others(society).

If the self-protective nature of the individual is not there, it is not going to creat insecurity, on the other hand it results in hardly any conflict due to the subsidance of the self.It is inableity of the individual to stay with empty and vecant haert, the individual runs after the wealth, fame, and dominace of the soiety

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Tue, 08 Nov 2011 #146
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

The economic security, and the spiritual security have theri basis in the self-protection.In fact the security,no matter what type of security it is, itself gives rise to the self protection.The self-protection has manifasted as central power of athourity whether it is in economic activity or spiritual activity.Todays qoute discribes what the economic security has done.The spiritual activity is no better.

Can we really think of an economic theory that lasted for generations for generations?No economic theory lasted for more than few decads.One wonders who long the present market forces theory would lost?Most sincere and honest people in economic field to turned out to be most reckless people when the belief in their theory turned out to be an illusion.That is recent experience in the finace field.It is out come of the self protection under the gusie of security.

The same concept security exteneded to inturnal security, the spritually, the religion has become bussiness.Is this security concept a reality?

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Wed, 09 Nov 2011 #147
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

There is without any doubt to me, a different reality in front of us when we are in a state of observation. I f I am stuck in my thought and I am looking at the world, every thing is gloomy there is no life to it. So of course I try to keep my self as much has I can in a state of observation to have a more objective look on life Without trying to force it or discipline myself but I still have to make this movement into observation, I don’t think this would be call discipline but we could call it an action.

Knowing that I can stay in that state (observation) temporarily, is all I can do, because thought always move in, to break off that state of mind. So I keep doing the movement to go back in observation, I can keep doing it for hour and days. I am wandering if it would not be more realistic to approach the state of observation has a wave that go in and out, if we consider all the other piece of the mind that are functioning at the same time, thought and emotion inside and every thing outside of us. It seem to me that if I don’t react to the thought moving in, because I had made the motion to be in observation, I think that I still maintain that state when the thought come in.
When I decide to observe it seem appropriate that thought would move in, that state or the decision to observe is a movement toward our thought so isn’t it normal that thought move in? Now if we familiarize our self with the state of observation and we can bring it back without thinking about it , is seem ok that thought/emotion would be there, there has to be something to observe when we are in that state. Being in observation is like a multi-task, we are observing many things at the same time, maybe I should say every thing at the same time. When I say that thought is breaking my observation , am I not saying that I am reacting to what I see? Isn’t it the reaction to what we see, that is breaking off observation?

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

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Thu, 10 Nov 2011 #148
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

jean-m girard wrote:
Being in observation is like a multi-task, we are observing many things at the same time, maybe I should say every thing at the same time. When I say that thought is breaking my observation , am I not saying that I am reacting to what I see? Isn’t it the reaction to what we see, that is breaking off observation?

You are making an effort to observe. It appears at the same time your aware of your effort, I think it is good enough intailly.It is awareness alone which can nullify the bad effects of making an effort.Normally a serious effort goes with an end reasult.The observation is,then distorted.An effort made without an expecting end result is taken over by the awareness.

Yes, thought does break the observation. In fact it could be a reaction to what you have observed.

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Thu, 10 Nov 2011 #149
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
An effort made without an expecting end result is taken over by the awareness.

Let me say what you are saying to see if I get your point. I am making an effort and awareness of my end result, in my observation will cancel out the effort and not distorted
what is being observed?
May be I still value effort?

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

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Thu, 10 Nov 2011 #150
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
The observation is,then distorted.

I was adding on my effort (end result) on top of my observation, the idea of observation is to cancel out the thought process, not to add on.

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

This post was last updated by jean-m girard Thu, 10 Nov 2011.

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