Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.


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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #31
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

It was blissfully hot today and such a wonderful sight, the deep blue sky and the wonderful Autumn colours. I noticed how wide my eyes were working. There was no particular focus as I walked, but taking in everything and nothing (maybe something too).

On my way I was stopped by the man who owns the health food store and who was sitting outside his shop with Emma, the hairdresser next door. They were chatting and taking the sun. He told us that earlier a man in the pub had been insulting his hometown, Glasgow and, so outraged was he by this public humiliation he had punched the man in the nose and left the pub.

Remarkable!

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Fri, 30 Sep 2011.

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #32
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Are testing my knowldge?

Not testing, but I would like to discuss them with a sincere, serious poster. Do go ahead, please.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #33
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
I re-read Ana Flavia's account and could not find her saying or suggesting it is wrong to say moments of awareness are too little. She said it would be wrong to judge it as too little, implying in that judgement a need for more.
She did not make the judgement so the question of suppressing it does not arise, Sudhir. Are you reading with the correct prescription?

Paul, in a hurry to be everywhere in these forums, please don't spoil it for others.

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #34
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Not opposites.

In my post no. 22 I used 'negative thinking' and negative thinking differently. The difference should have been obvious to some one who is not in a hurry.

The usual thinking process can suggest a positive action or a negative one. They form positive and negative thinking. The 'negative thinking' does not arise in the limited area where self rules.

Paul Davidson wrote:
Seeking, you will never find!

Reading your above statement, I asked, 'Is this 'negative thinking''?

Do you want to reply to it now in a straight forward manner?

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #35
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:

Let us put aside what our friend Paul said. Are you interested in replying to my post no. 22?

Paul - Oh, sorry, I did not realise I was to be put aside. Shall I delete?

How will you delete ArjunaRao's post? I was replying to ArjunaRao's post and not yours. Why do you take everything personally, Paul? You know very well that it would be a monumental feat to ignore you...I mean your posts here. You are everywhere, man, replying to a few lines/paragraph with full chapter! Have mercy on us and don't monopolize. We also wish to contribute here in discussions with other fellow posters, dear friend.

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #36
Thumb_flower_4 Ana Flavia Lucas Brazil 28 posts in this forum Offline

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
What is wrong by saying to yourself that moments of awareness are too little?

Nothing wrong or right, nothing to supress. I was only answering your question that of course I am aware that temporary relief is not equivalent to complete ending, and, as this is quite obvious, added my understanding about the futility on judging what it is.

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #37
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Reading your above statement, I asked, 'Is this 'negative thinking''?

Do you want to reply to it now in a straight forward manner?

If you tell me what you mean by negative thinking I will tell you if my statement is an example of it.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Fri, 30 Sep 2011.

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Fri, 30 Sep 2011 #38
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
How will you delete ArjunaRao's post? I was replying to ArjunaRao's post and not yours.

Oh, it is simple: You asked K to put my comments aside. I asked if you would rather I delete them.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Fri, 30 Sep 2011.

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Sat, 01 Oct 2011 #39
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

The walk went its useval way.I am getting used to the new topic's space in the mind.How quickly the mind gets used to the mechanical action?I wonder if it is not going to make it another pattren.

The observation of surroundings was much more clear then the usevally what it was.I was disturbed by a hurried man,who was ,I suppose to reach his work place.There was no public transport as talangana agitation is still on.He is poorman,perhaps could not afford to hire transport.He grubled with contempt.

Having retired I was most unaffected by the ongoing agitation.My wife had been complaining that I was not keeping myself informed about the agitation.I wonder if it is my insensitivity.I know that this was a most unsolvable politcal problem at the present politcal despensetion.Those who matter have promised separate state without knowing that they don't have satha(Strength)to give astate like that.Should my bothering about it help the cause?

nothing

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Sat, 01 Oct 2011 #40
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Ana Flavia Lucas wrote:
Nothing wrong or right, nothing to supress. I was only answering your question that of course I am aware that temporary relief is not equivalent to complete ending, and, as this is quite obvious, added my understanding about the futility on judging what it is.

Our mind is very quick to make judgements. What is the right way to deal with these judgements?

My understanding is that, if possible, one is to watch these judgements passively. Then next will come the reaction to these judgements like, 'it is futile to judge'. Now this statement (thought) is not reflecting understanding. If repeated in mind, then it is a conclusion and not understanding.

The judgement and reacton to judgement has to be watched passively and in the act of this passive watching is real understanding. This is always fresh (non-accumulative) and instantaneous. I would appreciate your input on this.

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Sat, 01 Oct 2011 #41
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
If you tell me what you mean by negative thinking I will tell you if my statement is an example of it.

Still no direct answer to my question.:-)

Paul, anyone can speak volumes about 'swimming' but if one doesn't know it, then 'drowning' is inevitable. Similarly with negative thinking. Either it is a concept or a fact for one. You have been pushed in to the river. Either swim or drown. Your reply will show your ability. If you are not interested in direct reply, then we end it here.

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Sat, 01 Oct 2011 #42
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I know what 'swimming' means Sudhir. It is not a technical term really. It means locomotion in water, does it not?

Now here is a very interesting question for you, Sudhir: Is drowning a form of 'negative swimming?'

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 02 Oct 2011 #43
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

There was a program to visit by brothers place in sainik puri,about 25km from my place Mehdipatanam.The event was chanting of vedas by pandits.My walking in morning was pre-occupied with pressure to get ready to go early.I have not cut distance or time,only my mind was in mood to meet the target, and there were no other sensitivities prevailed.The walk was strainfull.Meeting targets makes one less sensitive.Is that really required?

nothing

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Mon, 03 Oct 2011 #44
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Can you say something about the relationship between 'negative thinking' and understanding? And also about positive thinking which has an opposite as negative thinking?

This is my personal view, I wonder if it makes sense.

Undestanding:The out come of the observation of the facts withoutA involvement of thought process.

Nagative thinking:A thinking based on the image forming or thinking based on senate values where out come of the thinking is contempt.

positive thinking:A thinking based on the expectation of something is sure of happening to the satisfaction of the individual.

In both these thinkings, the self is in its fullswing.But there is highest form of negative thinking which needs to be looked into.

nothing

This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Mon, 03 Oct 2011.

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Mon, 03 Oct 2011 #45
Thumb_avatar me speak Sri Lanka 392 posts in this forum Offline

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:

Still no direct answer to my question.:-)
Paul, anyone can speak volumes about 'swimming' but if one doesn't know it, then 'drowning' is inevitable. Similarly with negative thinking. Either it is a concept or a fact for one. You have been pushed in to the river. Either swim or drown. Your reply will show your ability. If you are not interested in direct reply, then we end it here.

Paul Davidson wrote:

I know what 'swimming' means Sudhir. It is not a technical term really. It means locomotion in water, does it not?
Now here is a very interesting question for you, Sudhir: Is drowning a form of 'negative swimming?'

why are you two not playing this game of 'catch me if you can' any more? this is a good opportunity to show your knowledge to rest of brothers.
if there is any problem in finding words about 'negative thinking', then i can ask my friend 'emptiness speak' to help you out, brother paul.
brother doc, why a learned man like you is finding it difficult to say something about 'negative swimming', ? since when not understanding anything has become an obstacle in writing about it for any of us?

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Mon, 03 Oct 2011 #46
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dear brother Mr Speakeasy,

You will find that a little dob of ghee at the end of it will reduce the friction considerably.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Mon, 03 Oct 2011 #47
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Nagative thinking

This is the problem . . . nag, nag, nag.

But what of negative swimming? I and my good brother Speakeasy want an answer from the doctor. Will he not offer a straightforward answer? Is he also a wriggler?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Mon, 03 Oct 2011.

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Tue, 04 Oct 2011 #48
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Is he also a wriggler?

I wonder what I have to say.Let him say the last word.

nothing

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Tue, 04 Oct 2011 #49
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

It was raining early morning, I had to delay my walking ,meanwhile I opened the kinfonet,instead of counting my reactions during my walking,I was to count them from the site.We can be aware of them,instead of loading the memory with few more reactions to be recordings.Can mind ever be free of the reactions?(The purpose of this topic)

nothing

This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Tue, 04 Oct 2011.

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Tue, 04 Oct 2011 #50
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

I went for the walking at about 10am after the rain stopped.There was power cut due to ongoing strike.pension payments also got deleyed due to the strike.Wheather was cool and cloudy.The roads were wet and dirty.I chose to go to public gardens in nampally.It takes 45 miniutes to reach it.I was able to spend two hours of power cut right in the nature fold..

While returing a tailor shop owner stood before his shop waiting to seek help for lifting the shutter of his shop up.He was calling out for a young man who was going on a cycle,who without even noticeing him ,he went past the shpop.He called me to lift sutter up.I was taken aback,why he was seeking help from me(oldman,a feeling).All the same I lifted the shutters without much fuss.He promptly formaned a "sukriya".I returned with the "adab".It appeared that he took me to be an young man,and did not notice my greying chin.

The looks of an individual are some times quite disceptive.One can not say who is young and who is not young.By looks the shop owner appeared old with his grey hair and short stature.I feel there was something wrong in our reactions.

nothing

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Tue, 04 Oct 2011 #51
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Nagative thinking:A thinking based on the image forming or thinking based on senate values where out come of the thinking is contempt.
positive thinking:A thinking based on the expectation of something is sure of happening to the satisfaction of the individual.

Dear ArjunaRao,

You have very rightly pointed out that self interest and concerns are behind both positive and negative thinking.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
But there is highest form of negative thinking which needs to be looked into.

The problem is this - any looking in to this 'negative thinking' by mind with the help of words will come out as either positive or negative thinking. We will either say that it is this or it is not this and enquiry gets blocked/starts on a wrong track right from the beginning. So, how do you propose we start to look in to this 'negative thinking'?

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Tue, 04 Oct 2011 #52
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
I know what 'swimming' means Sudhir. It is not a technical term really. It means locomotion in water, does it not?

In my post no. 41 I invited you to share your understanding about 'negative thinking' and swimming was taken only as example. Instead of a direct reply about 'negative thinking', you diverted the discussion to swimming and drowning.

Paul Davidson wrote:
I know what 'swimming' means Sudhir. It is not a technical term really. It means locomotion in water, does it not?
Now here is a very interesting question for you, Sudhir: Is drowning a form of 'negative swimming?'

I don't mind replying to your question to the best of my ability, Paul. Anyone who knows swimming understands that it is a living, non transferable and indescribable relationship with water that exists only in the moments of swimming. Drowning is a natural state for humans and exists in a different dimension than swimming. The learning process may start from drowning to swimming but as such both exist in different dimension. The same body that used to drown learns to swim. How this comes about, nobody can say. My understanding is that drowning is not related at all to swimming.

Now it is your turn.

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Tue, 04 Oct 2011 #53
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

me speak wrote:
brother doc, why a learned man like you is finding it difficult to say something about 'negative swimming', ? since when not understanding anything has become an obstacle in writing about it for any of us?

At the moment I am trying to understand 'me speak'. How long are you going to stay, brother?

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Tue, 04 Oct 2011 #54
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
The problem is this - any looking in to this 'negative thinking' by mind with the help of words will come out as either positive or negative thinking. We will either say that it is this or it is not this and enquiry gets blocked/starts on a wrong track right from the beginning. So, how do you propose we start to look in to this 'negative thinking'?

As far as I know, this highest form of thinking is of little use when there is confussion involving the known. It is used by the big only inthe case of the unknowns,such as, love,compassion,virtue, order,attention,and the highest energy.It is not apprapraite at this movement to try our hand at them.The attention,and energy seem to over lap both the known and the unknown.We will have to deal with them first.Think of doing that.

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Wed, 05 Oct 2011 #55
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Today the walking went the useval way,I was trying to observe a pure observation,the mind going in its own way after the reactions as a slave.There appeared a wave of awareness which seemed to have over taken mind,a glims of pure obsevation was in the offing, the observer seemed to have arrived from no where,and closed the pure obsevation and mind resorted to its slavery of reaction.The effort is of no avail other than a feeling of emptyness

The pure observation is aloneness,its disburbance reduces the aloneness to lonliness.The lonliness makes one depend on reaction, or worset still it makes one depend on some body else.Passion for freedom still hounts.

nothing

This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Wed, 05 Oct 2011.

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Wed, 05 Oct 2011 #56
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
In my post no. 41 I invited you to share your understanding about 'negative thinking'

Indeed you did Sudhir. And it was all the more remarkable for the fact that I had already shared with you my understanding in post 29. You may go back and read it if you have any serious interest in my view on that phrase.

Incidentally, I have never in my life used the phrase 'negative thinking' independently. Those few cases where I have allowed it have been with reference to K's usage of the term. In post 29 I have therefore expressed what I take to be K's usage.

One cannot ask another about their understanding of a phrase. One may ask what is their understanding of what it represents, but then it depends upon how the phrase is being used. As I do not use it I can hardly expect to give any comprehensible personal account.

I do not use the term 'negative thinking' because I find it clumsy, uncomfortably nebulous and open to multiple interpretations. But I do use the term 'inquiry,' which is simpler.

I have chosen to point out K's usage, on occasion. Why? Because it is often pointed out that K said that all thought is unhelpful and that thought can never play a part in liberation. What is missed is that thought may play a role in inquiry when it poses pointed questions to itself. If I ask, "why do I think or suppose such and such" this is thought screaming to a standstill as it turns back to look at itself. It is precisely in that moment of questioning ('negative thinking') that thought stops and a more integrated and inquiring mode begins.

But you see, the phrase 'negative thinking' has another popular usage which is much more common. An example of this is the thought, "the human race is a blight upon the planet and we'd all be better off dead."

So I do not use it and have no independent view.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Wed, 05 Oct 2011 #57
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Now it is your turn.

Sudhir, the subject, in itself, is not of interest to me. You introduced it but you have not explained why it is important for you or what significance you give your question.

We were discussing our walks and you introduced the issue of negative thinking quite out of the blue. I have no 'turn' because it is not my game. I neither know the purpose or the rules.

Perhaps you can tell what was the original purpose of this now long and drawn-out inquiry into the meaning of 'negative thinking.' If you want to continue with it you must give us some direction, some meaning. Questions without meaning are difficult to give meaningful answers to.

Why is it important for you to ask about negative thinking? What is the motive?

To inquire into the motive behind a question is more important than giving a ready answer. This is the real difference between the 'negative' and the 'positive' approach.

When K said the answer is in the question he might have added, the answer is also in the questioner. And see how often he fired back, "Why do you ask?"

Oh, by the way, as far as I can make out, my original line, "Seeking, you shall not find," is NOT an example either of 'negative thinking' or of negative thinking. Why did you ask?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Wed, 05 Oct 2011.

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Wed, 05 Oct 2011 #58
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
The pure observation is aloneness,its disburbance reduces the aloneness to lonliness.

Dear ArjunaRao, we have a taste of clear observation when thought process (reaction) is quiet for some moments. Then thought process re-starts and clarity of perception is compromised. Is it right to call this 'clear perception/observation' between two thoughts/reactions as 'pure perception'?

Let us look at this from a different angle. When next thought replaces the clear perception, it is possible to observe its arising and ending. I feel that this particular step of observing the thought without any desire or seeking is of great importance.
Then there will be moments of clear perception again and so on. This is all one is doing without effort not bothering at all about aloneness/lonliness business. Such a movement of observation in active present will certainly quieten the mind. May be there will come a different quality of perception that is not made possible by the the gap between two thoughts or may be not. I feel it is worth doing.

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Wed, 05 Oct 2011 #59
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
What is missed is that thought may play a role in inquiry when it poses pointed questions to itself. If I ask, "why do I think or suppose such and such" this is thought screaming to a standstill as it turns back to look at itself. It is precisely in that moment of questioning ('negative thinking') that thought stops and a more integrated and inquiring mode begins.

Dear Paul, I am sorry to say this but your post no. 56 and 57 did nothing to clarify the matter. 'Negative thinking' is very important part of K's teachings and clear understanding of this is necessary in the journey of freedom.

The paragraph that I have quoted above gives thought a credit which is misplaced. Every thought is simply a thought, its being in question form is insignificant. What is of significance is the state of mind in which the thought is arising. Every thought and feeling is to be looked at from start to finish, K must have repeated this endless times. The looking/seeing/watching mind has value and not the content or nature (positive, negative or questioning) of thought.

Thought screaming to a standstill is so wrong. It is the mind that can be in quiet and still state. Negative thinking has no connection or relationship with stopping of thought. You make ask endless question and nothing is going to change radically. More questions may bring more knowledge/research work but that is not what should be primarily discussed/exchanged in K forums.

Paying attention to the workings of mind is very basic and important thing to do for me as it should be for each one of us. Basically we are not here to show our knowledge and impress others when our own house is burning.

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Wed, 05 Oct 2011 #60
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Oh, by the way, as far as I can make out, my original line, "Seeking, you shall not find," is NOT an example either of 'negative thinking' or of negative thinking. Why did you ask?

Dear Paul,

examples of negative and positive thinking can be given, but 'negative thinking' is a state of mind. This one sentence is enough to show your ignorance in the matter. You may know swimming but in this matter you 'drown'. If only you had paid more attention to the workings of your mind rather than writing lengthy posts and beating around the bush! But it is still not too...Well, I won't complete the sentence as you may receive a sincere and honest suggestion in wrong spirit.

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