Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.


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Tue, 07 Feb 2012 #481
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
direct perception.

it is beyond description.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Tue, 07 Feb 2012 #482
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

ganesan balachandran wrote:
it is beyond description.

Yet we have been describing it, not in quantitative or comparative terms but in the poetry of qualities. The quality of freshness, clarity, vividness, newness. These are directly feeling states, are they not? There is nothing vulgar about them.

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Tue, 07 Feb 2012 #483
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
I am suggesting the change of state may be from comparative perception to direct perception.

If you are useing the thought process, then what you say is true, but at times nature remains so powerfull on our mind, thought comes to stand still, even with out your making any effort.Those who are sensitive to such situations,might as well may set themselves in meditative mood.Well this is after all reaction to your posting.The experiences are at times quite startling.Must be catious with the possible illusions that these experiences could throw up.

nothing

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Tue, 07 Feb 2012 #484
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Those who are sensitive to such situations,might as well may set themselves in meditative mood.Well this is after all reaction to your posting.The experiences are at times quite startling.

You have put it exactly as I meant it, ArjunaRao. It is direct perception with thought halted, probably because thought cannot find a category for the new quality and therefore has no starting point from which to start its bubbling action.

But note that this is nature imposing its power on our minds, as you have said, and therefore we are in a temporary state of attracted attention. It has been produced by an external circumstance. Turn away from the sight and thought returns. As you say, we have been startled and thought has been startled into silence. How wonderful it can be.

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Tue, 07 Feb 2012 #485
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

In a synchronous note with respect to the above: I was reading the following last evening from Dervla Murphy's book, "Where The Indus Is Young." which chronicles her winter walking through Baltistan (Pakistani Northern Territory) in December 1974 to March 24 1975, with her almost six-year-old daughter, Rachel. They are following the Indus through the snowbound passes of the Karakoram mountains of the Himalaya range. trekking by foot, with Rachel on a donkey. This is from the entry for Feb 11 1975.

"An hour later we were on the rim of an oval plateau some three miles wide and six miles long. Here was mountain beauty in all its perfection: the flat land aglitter with new snow, the light crystal, the blue sky faintly streaked with wispy cloud, the silence profound. But as we walked on Rachel wanted to know what uranium is, how gems are mined, why different races speak different languages, where numbers were invented and when the Himalayas were formed. At times I itch to push her over the nearest cliff."

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Tue, 07 Feb 2012 #486
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
At times I itch to push her over the nearest cliff."

The spoiler of the the beauty.In varaiably it is the thought.It is self-centred attitude of the individual which likes to aquire and possses even the beauty which beyound possasion.

For the nerator of this incident, it was perhaps a state mind that is temporevery, but in general for those who do not see beyound thought, the reaction is similar.

nothing

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Tue, 07 Feb 2012 #487
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

It is an amusing and informative script:

Dervla, the mother, is 'lost' in a reverie of direct perception while Rachel, the child' is pulling her back into thought. Dervla finally snarls back in thought.

See how we kill reverie by trying to hold onto it. The self in deeply invested in that.

But interesting that the 'innocent' child is the main thought-producer, constantly asking informational questions and often oblivious to her surroundings. The ecstasy of adulthood is unknown to the child, except maybe in sensory terms.

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Wed, 08 Feb 2012 #488
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
See how we kill reverie by trying to hold onto it. The self in deeply invested in that.

It is greed which makes the self gain in strength.A pure act of survival of the self.

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
But interesting that the 'innocent' child is the main thought-producer, constantly asking informational questions and often oblivious to her surroundings

An ignorent child with full of energy is always inquisitive, and pours out many interests,it results in natural thought process for the child.Any way, how many of the adult people like us really know what actually thought stands for,so that we could really blame the child for its lack of understanding?.

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
The ecstasy of adulthood is unknown to the child, except maybe in sensory terms

Unstained child brain may be slow to pleasure and pain, but all the same it reacts in its own way, right at this stage childs inquisitiveness is the pleasure for it.It may not be in tune with mother.

nothing

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Wed, 08 Feb 2012 #489
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

All true Arjuna.

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Fri, 10 Feb 2012 #490
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Mind is always engaged with some thing or the other.It continueous for some time,and thinking fades away even without one's knowldge, as if one is not even aware of what is all about.Even if it is repeated, one need not remember it as some thing one knew about it.

But there are few thoughts which one would like to get rid of them ,and that hardly happens.Why few thoughts arise and fall off without a trace and others survive to hount the individual?

A simple observation reveals that a thought has it own stregnth,so if thought works its force to its stregnth,it is most likely that it may not repeat.If a thought terminates before its strength, it may repeat.Question is who prevents the thought to work its way completely?

Can one work one's thought to its completion?Why should incomplete thoughts persist?

nothing

This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Fri, 10 Feb 2012.

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Sat, 11 Feb 2012 #491
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

As long as the self is at the helem of affairs, it is an open system of thoughts pouring in to the living.The system is closed once the thought(time) ends.Living, that is the pure awareness is there,standing still.What matters is allowing the thought to exghaust its original strength, ends the thought.Then the closed system of pure awareness reveals itself.

Can we realise that self is an open system of thoughts,which gives ideas, illusions for sustains of the open system called the self ? What is the understanding of ours?

nothing

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Sun, 12 Feb 2012 #492
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

A open system remains incomplete,and depends on something, the wanting would be an inherent quality of such a system,infact they are the basic features of the the system called the self of the humans.The system becomes closed once the thought process is understood, and the thinking is free of illusions.That is thought must find its place.Once thought found its place, the human activity understands its needs,there is no undue desireing of things.if a thought exghasts to it strenght, the illusion conected with it disappears.The system becomes closed and independent.That is freedom.

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Tue, 14 Feb 2012 #493
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

What is basic nature of attention, that we desperately try to have it?We try to acquire it as if we have stored it some where.In reality it it has no back ground.It stays on its own.But the self with its past back ground, and capacity to retrive from the memory it tries to get attention,which is futile.the thought has end.

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Tue, 14 Feb 2012 #494
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Travelling in his own little seat, Rafael is attentive to everything. He is two years old. His mother was a crack addict and gave him up for adoption at birth. Then two years later he was adopted by my new sister-in-law.

I am travelling with him in the back of her car. He looks out of the window and sees a vulture, a bird he has not seen before. It is new to him but he immediately sees its essential quality, a 'qualia' as Peter has put it.

"Look!" he shouts to us all, "An ugly bird."

He has observed something of significance, or significant to the human discernment, at least. It did not come from words, although he had the words to express it.

Rafael refuses to say the word 'boat.' He insists, however, on 'sea-car.'

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Tue, 14 Feb 2012 #495
Thumb_deleted_user_med Peng Shu Tse United Kingdom 1205 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
A open system remains incomplete,and depends on something, the wanting would be an inherent quality of such a system,infact they are the basic features of the the system called the self of the humans.The system becomes closed once the thought process is understood

Thought is a system, but not completely closed. It tends to close in on itself to avoid disturbance but it cannot avoid disturbance and must finally yield and adapt to change of circumstance. Yet despite all its adaptations its major tendency is towards closure. However sophisticated thought becomes it is always a dead letter. The constant adaptations give it a mere semblance of movement, response and therefore life.

The human being has to break out of its mental enclosure to become free. The human being can never become a closed system. The human is the most responsive of all creatures and therefore, to be true to that nature, s/he must be open. To be open is not to be dependent, it means to be responsive.

The human being, to respond rightly, must be able to discern between the flow of reality and the influence of society. It has to be open to the one but closed to the other.

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Sat, 18 Feb 2012 #496
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
Travelling in his own little seat, Rafael is attentive to everything. He is two years old. His mother was a crack addict and gave him up for adoption at birth. Then two years later he was adopted by my new sister-in-law

The cocaine addict could be insensitive to her the new born infant and could through it out for a motive without any remorse, but a naive infant with hardly any backgruond,would probably has sound attention to what it would observe.

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
am travelling with him in the back of her car. He looks out of the window and sees a vulture, a bird he has not seen before. It is new to him but he immediately sees its essential quality, a 'qualia' as Peter has put it.

Pure awarenes to a sensitive infant could be docile enough to readily pick up the challenge thrown by the environment.The infant may not have physical ablity to verbalize, but could react to the surroundings, no wonder it called the vulture the ugly.A quick creation of proto type of the past record.

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
He has observed something of significance, or significant to the human discernment, at least. It did not come from words, although he had the words to express it.

Yes, it is something significant to cultivation of self-protective natute, a future patren of its brain.

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
Rafael refuses to say the word 'boat.' He insists, however, on 'sea-car.'

Look, what has happened, isn't this a patren of the brain,which he is cultivating it without being aware of its consequence?

Fine illustration.

nothing

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Sat, 18 Feb 2012 #497
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
The human being has to break out of its mental enclosure to become free. The human being can never become a closed system.

A human being needs an open system for its materail aspects of its living.Why is it necessary to extend this to the non-materail aspects of the living?Extending this to psychological stuff,reduces it to an incomplete system(open system).

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Mon, 20 Feb 2012 #498
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

The living organic things are sesnsitive to touching, mixing, heating, growing, and evolution.But do the inorganic things also have few aspects of these things that are mentioned?There are examples of few materail things which become sensitive in presence few other materail stuff.But there would be no sense of 'me' among them.Even living things like vegitation also has no sense of 'me'

The basic requirement for a thing to have a sense of me is 1) it must have life2)it must me highly sensitive to the things mentioned above.'Me' is the indication of cognizetion.A door way to awareness.But our problem is the strong sense of' me' which seems to over shadow the trueth/pure awareness.It is in fact dissolution of 'me' without the loss of sight of the trueth.

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Thu, 23 Feb 2012 #499
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

The word is what actually enages us mostly.Where does the word stand when it is awareness that really matters?It is quite clear that word which carries the information from the awareness.If we observe ,we can see that the word is the fourth generation(hand)of pure awareness.It is like:1) pure awareness2)fresh/pure energy3)thought/self/memory/past/time 4)word.Once we stop word,the thought most likely to pause for some time.Because it is an effort to hold the word, the thought behind the word does not get its energy completely run threw,which creats opposition to stoping the word.An effort is made to end the thought.As thought it is split , its off-shoot the self/thinker resorts to manupulation for ts survival,and thought sustains.How do we aviod the resistance from the self?

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Fri, 24 Feb 2012 #500
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Peng Shu Tse wrote:
The human being has to break out of its mental enclosure to become free. The human being can never become a closed system.

For a live organic being to survive it needs a consciousness which is always open, otherwise it is dead thing. Human being can go beyoung the consciousness which could be a closed system, yet physical system of the human could still be open for its survival.When the focus is on awareness(a complete closed system) ending of the thought which depicts the consciousness(open system) normally fades out.

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Wed, 29 Feb 2012 #501
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
The word is what actually enages us mostly

Sitting quietly just to stay away from making any verbal statement of the thought is quite an adrous task.We are infact not aware of thought unless we have verbal statement of it.It is said that there is a gape between action and word.A word gives rise to an idea which is response to some thing which is a reaction, but not an action.

With sustained allowance of wordlessnes for considerable period, it so happened , in the middle of the poundering after half the night was over, a verbal symoble croped up in the mind, and that was;"Whom do I worship?".

This is long after the worship had ended.That is the first surprise.Next, it never occured while worship was on.Perhaps the tradition and authority must have come in the way.

Now is it croped up just as reaction to Jk's authority?

Or this has not come up all these days out of some lurking fear?

What has happened to logic and sanity that was cultivated?What was the individual trying to become all these days?

Is that "what is?"

It is not for answers that it is stated, perhaps the answae are there in the problem.In spite of so much of tradition and spriritual endeavour, it is wonder that the individual never asked any body the above question.Does really the word creat an illusion?could one stay with problem?

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Wed, 29 Feb 2012 #502
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 1223 posts in this forum Offline

Sitting quietly, just two friends, holding each others hand.

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Wed, 29 Feb 2012 #503
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
Sitting quietly, just two friends, holding each others hand.

Yes,that keeps the word silent,and so the illusion that it spreads.

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Thu, 01 Mar 2012 #504
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

It appears that today's quote seems to suggest that the cause for the predictment of yesterday's reflection of mind regarding the most surprising verbalization of the thought is the inability of individual to stay mentally in the present.

What is significance of staying in present.It is:

1)Seeing,observing, and experiencing without a word/thought;
2)Pure action which is not a reaction and without any choice,an action is free of contridiction,conflict,andconfussion;
3)an action which is deviod of process of identification,evaluvation,condenmation, judging,and conclusions;
4)Independent of psychological time,such as process of urge , fullfillment,security, satisfaction.

When one fails to stay in the present, thought makes use of the past, and guides itself to the future,making the present a stay of non fulfillment.One is always frightend to stay with present.

So the individual forced to depend on the past experience.The verbalization of the thought which inveriably depends on the word.What does the word do on the psychology of the individual?Please refer to the talk of Jk in Bangalore1948 (On Self+Knowldge, pages 53to 55)

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Sat, 03 Mar 2012 #505
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

We are used to reaction,but not to action.The simple reason is we are never the same psycholgically.Often we are involved in circular reactions,and one never realises that one is so, till circumstances forces one see the reason.The dominent entity in this process is the memory aspect of the self, which forces one to reley on the past hapenings.Paradox arises due to the urgency to end memory/thought/time.Could one end memory(with regard to psychological entites,but not materail entities) just like that?

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Wed, 07 Mar 2012 #506
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Could one end memory(with regard to psychological entites,but not materail entities) just like that?

It identification with object,evaluvating it,judging its value,condemning it or appreciation of it often results in creating memory of it.It is necessary that those process should end, which can end recollection of psychological entities from the memory.These process could end if one knows that dammage that these process could, is enormous,as a fact,and not as an idea.At every instant the attention must be on the movement of the thought,so that the thought is through leaving no trace of it in the memory.

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Thu, 15 Mar 2012 #507
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Tradition which is built on beleif,and conformity to the beleif does not allow the individual to see beyound the authority.The authority nicely quotes its essence by rewards.It also puts one to seveour punishment if one is not conforming to it authority.Apart from this carrot and stick attitude of authority, it is basic nature of human to seek security and certainity which makes one adhere to the authority.It becomes immune to authority at the expense of sensitivity and intelligence.It results in highly self -protective nature of the individual,which is a simple mechanical life.

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Thu, 15 Mar 2012 #508
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Tradition which is built on beleif,and conformity to the beleif does not allow the individual to see beyound the authority

Aptavakyam, authority is one kind of proof; it is not the only kind
; pratyaksa (direct knowledge) is more important. Sri Aurobindo

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Thu, 15 Mar 2012.

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Thu, 15 Mar 2012 #509
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

ganesan balachandran wrote:
pratyaksa (direct knowledge) is more important. Sri Aurobindo

True.

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Thu, 15 Mar 2012 #510
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Tradition which is built on beleif,and conformity to the beleif does not allow the individual to see beyound the authority.

"Men set up an authority and put it in between themselves and knowledge. The orthodox are indignant that a mere modern should presume to differ from Shankara in interpreting vedanta or from Sayana in interpreting the veda. Theu forget that Shankara and Sayana are themselves moderns, separated from ourselves by some hundreds of years only, but the vedas are many thousands of years old. The commentator ought to be studied, but instead we put him in place of the text. Good commentaries are always helpful even when they are wrong, but the best cannot be allowed to fetter inquiry. Sayana's commentary on the veda helps me by showing what a man of great erudition some hundreds of years thought to be the sense of the scripture. But i cannot forget that even at the time of Brahmanas the meaning of veda had become dark to the men of that prehistoric age.. I find that Shankara has grasped much of Vedantic truth, but that much was dark to him. Iam bound to admit what he realized; I am not bound to exclude what he failed to realise.

Aptavakyam, authority is one kind of proof; it is not the only kind
; pratyaksa (direct knowledge) is more important. Sri Aurobindo

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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