Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What does it mean...to be resonable?


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Sat, 10 Sep 2011 #1
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Well..D...and Dan were talking about reasonable...and I thought to myself....this may be an interesting topic of discussion? To me one of it's meanings would be in the field of probability...in other words non conclusive? What do my fellow inquirer's think?

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sat, 10 Sep 2011 #2
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

RICK LEIN wrote:
To me one of it's meanings would be in the field of probability...in other words non conclusive? What do my fellow inquirer's think?

Hi Rick

I see reason, in two parts.This is main tool in physical world.By reason, we not only see possibilities, but also can see impossibility.For example, thought can't see present, because 'thought' is always past, it is seeing impossibility through reasoning.

But there is other situation, where intelligence acts, which has no reason, it itself is reason, without any reason for it.

Well, just talking, Rick, being talkative.:)

I don't know

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Sat, 10 Sep 2011 #3
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dhirendra singh wrote:
But there is other situation, where intelligence acts, which has no reason, it itself is reason, without any reason for it.

Well..D..thank you. This may be the shortest thread ever...cause I think you nailed it right out of the gate!Now..when we say reasonable often we are saying..well in line with my experience..of past..it may be so/or not?The second part of your post I find speaks to the issue quite well... :) Which I take as meaning intelligence acts from present moment awareness?

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

This post was last updated by RICK LEIN (account deleted) Sat, 10 Sep 2011.

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Sat, 10 Sep 2011 #4
Thumb_deleted_user_med Muad dhib Ireland 175 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dhirendra singh wrote:
But there is other situation, where intelligence acts, which has no reason, it itself is reason, without any reason for it.

dhirendra before you go to Finland visiting mina::)) listen to this...last words : Finland has it all

otherwise when rick says :

RICK LEIN wrote:
This may be the shortest thread ever...cause I think you nailed it right out of the gate

Well , honestly this is right ::))

Dan.....

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Sat, 10 Sep 2011 #5
Thumb_deleted_user_med Muad dhib Ireland 175 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

then you could meet the mad finish lumberjack in British Columbia

Dan.....

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #6
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1925 posts in this forum Offline

It depends upon the sense of use of the word 'reasonable'.

If meaning 'motivated by something' as in the 'reason for' - that is very different from its common manner of use - which is 'balanced, open and thought through'. One might even suggest 'logical'! There is nothing wrong with logic - as it only ever applies technically - never emotionally. There can be NO logic emotionally.

So I question the romantic conclusion reached in the above discussion, and would prefer to see it go much deeper than surface agreement.

K never settled for anything less than deep inquiry - never neat and convenient words of agreement.

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #7
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

RICK LEIN wrote:
Which I take as meaning intelligence acts from present moment awareness?

Hi Rick

It's quite reasonable:).

I don't know

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #8
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Muad dheeb wrote:
last words : Finland has it all

I have read a survey, which say, people of Finland are most happiest persons in world.(Did they have not read K:)?)

I don't know

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #9
Thumb_deleted_user_med Muad dhib Ireland 175 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dhirendra singh wrote:
I have read a survey, which say, people of Finland are most happiest persons in world.(Did they have not read K:)?

Well we must go for visiting mina...::))...myself I like northern countries so...

Dan.....

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #10
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
There is nothing wrong with logic - as it only ever applies technically - never emotionally. There can be NO logic emotionally.

Right, logic is a tool for technical things.

But there is other field which can't be touched through logics, where there is no 'why'.

I don't know

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #11
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Muad dheeb wrote:
Well we must go for visiting mina...::))..

Agreed:)

I don't know

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #12
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
'balanced, open and thought through'

I think this is necessary in a discussion.In the general meaning of the word.Not to take words out of context & so on.Not to take word litterally.Does it imply honesty also in discussing things? I feel it does.

This post was last updated by Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sun, 11 Sep 2011.

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #13
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Logic/reason is measurement.

Logic is a whore. It can be used to service any demand. Any argument can be put logically. The Nazi's were very rational, very logical, in terms of how they set about achieving the goals they had set. The goals themselves were established irrationally.

One always has to ask with logic, to whom does it serve? Logical progression has always to be based upon a precept, which is almost always an emotional bias. Logic makes the precept almost vanish.That is how we are so easily persuaded, this way or that.

Logic can never create understanding. What is at the beginning in any logical progression is there also at the end. There is nill growth of meaning. Thisis because the meaning is set by the precept upon which the logical unfolding is established. Logic is the unfolding of the precept.

So it must always be asked, what is the precept and of what is this precept constituted, emotion or passion? Passion to know, or emotional bias to prove it so? Who is the master?

Obviously there must be logic, reason, but without a holistic passion to directly perceive 'what is' logic itself will lead to destruction.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #14
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1925 posts in this forum Offline

In discussion K was always logical.

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #15
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 749 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

'Obviously there must be logic, reason, but without a holistic passion to directly perceive 'what is' logic itself will lead to destruction.'

m: Yes!

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #16
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
but without a holistic passion to directly perceive 'what is' logic

kindly elaborate the above.

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #17
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
If meaning 'motivated by something' as in the 'reason for' - that is very different from its common manner of use - which is 'balanced, open and thought through'. One might even suggest 'logical'! There is nothing wrong with logic - as it only ever applies technically - never emotionally. There can be NO logic emotionally.

Balanced open and thought through! Yes. When reason is high jacked by the self as in "reason for" it becomes perverted!..Thank you Patricia!:)

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #18
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1925 posts in this forum Offline

Logic is usually attacked by those wallowing in emotion.

And the teaching of K is usually attacked by those wallowing in emotion. Interesting!

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #19
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Logic is usually attacked by those wallowing in emotion.

:) Bingo!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #20
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
And the teaching of K is usually attacked by those wallowing in emotion. Interesting!

Wallowing..attached to..self,,feeling of self...protection of self...image!:)

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #21
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
Wallowing..attached to..self,,feeling of self...protection of self...image!:)

Which also shows that those attached to their image of K are also quite capable of wallowing.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #22
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

:
Paul Davidson wrote: but without a holistic passion to directly perceive 'what is' logic
Ravi Seth wrote: kindly elaborate the above.

As you question has been recommended, Ravi I will respond to it. Though I will not elaborate on it. You ask me for elaboration, but logical unfolding does not give meaning. Either you get what I have said or you do not and it is NOT a matter of more logical elaboration. One carries on for ever with that.

So, instead I will give some quotes of K, with whom I agree on the subject.

First Talk in Madras - 1954

To find out what the mind is - is that not meditation? If the mind can understand the total process of its own existence, then perhaps it can go beyond itself and discover what is true. But reason and logic are not passionate, vital, and that is why, to understand and transcend itself, the mind must go beyond reason and logic. The mind that is passionate to find out what is true - only such a mind can come to know the whole process of reasoning, with its illusions and falseness, and so transcend itself. A mind that is logical, reasoning, traditional, fearful, may be enthusiastic in terms of a dogma, creed, or political formula; it may be keen to bring about a particular reform, but it can never be vitally free to find out what is true.

A few more selected quotes from other periods:

What you have done is to come to a conclusion through logic, but we are not talking of logic. Logic has led you to analysis. Somebody says your logic is false, because your logic is based on the fact of intellect, which is partial; therefore partial examination is no examination at all.

Don't agree. This is not a matter of agreement, nor is it mere logic. It is an actual experience.

Perception is something actual, understanding it, looking at it, ending it, and then from there you can reason. That very reasoning will be logical. But if you begin with logic, reason, find out the cause, then you will take time and the cause will multiply

See the truth of it, not the 1ogic of it. You can supply the logic later. What you thought was the door is not the door. You will not move towards that once you see it, but you do not see it.

I do not know what this total perception is. I see the beauty, logic, the sanity of it. I say, how am I to proceed?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #23
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

A mediocre mind depends upon logic but it is a mad mind that throws it out.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #24
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
In discussion K was always logical.

I bet you three bingos he wasn't!

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #25
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Now what is the point?

From a great scientist to small kid uses logic.It is a tool, we have.But it's field is as limited as of thought.It can't work where thought has no entry.

Logic is a stick in hand of a blind person.

I don't know

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #26
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
Which also shows that those attached to their image of K are also quite capable of wallowing.

Attachment is attachment...!:)

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #27
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
Attachment is attachment...!:)

Now, there is an actual bingo. Agreed Rick!

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #28
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:In discussion K was always logical :Paul Davidson wrote:I bet you three bingos he wasn't!

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See Trish, I got two bingos already. . . and now I just need one more

I feel so . . . affirmed!!

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Sun, 11 Sep 2011.

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Sun, 11 Sep 2011 #29
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1925 posts in this forum Offline

An emotional reaction indeed. A need for approval perhaps Paul?

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Mon, 12 Sep 2011 #30
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
As you question has been recommended, Ravi I will respond to it. Though I will not elaborate on it. You ask me for elaboration, but logical unfolding does not give meaning. Either you get what I have said or you do not and it is NOT a matter of more logical elaboration. One carries on for ever with that.

So, instead I will give some quotes of K, with whom I agree on the subject.

What is the use of quoting from page 3rd, para 13th , line 7th of any of 'k's book?

Kindly inform the same in your own words i.e. the perception with holistic passion you spoke of.

This post was last updated by Ravi Seth Mon, 12 Sep 2011.

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