Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Katy Alias 's Forum Posts

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Topic: Are we here to perpetuate ego ? Thu, 21 Feb 2019

Hi Jack,

Glad to hear that things are good with you.

I’m fine. Thanks for asking...

I made the most of the remaining winter here last week in the Lake District - lots of snow there unlike in London (and less people!).

Best wishes, Katy

Topic: Are we here to perpetuate ego ? Wed, 20 Feb 2019

Hi Oneself,

In answer to your question...I am still here !

Of course, I did not ‘eliminate‘ myself as you put it...for some reason it looks as if my account was deleted but I did not close the account...there must be a technical hitch.

I still read some of the conversations between people here and my not writing further for quite some time is/was nothing to do with Jack’s participation as you are suggesting...and it’s absurd really in my view that you’re calling him a troll - he is not such at all!

I learned a lot from studying with everyone here... and don’t regret any of my learning.

Kind Regards, Katy

Topic: Just a word of thanks... Wed, 18 Jul 2018

pavani rao wrote: Any how it's nice meeting you in here again :) Many many happy returns for your birthday on Friday. May your life's years be filled with joy and peace.

Hello Pavani,

Thank you very much for your reply - lovely to hear from you, too. You always pop in with something wise to say and I appreciate the gentleness, too, of/in your posts:)...yes, I managed not to write here for at least a year which was indicative of progress in my case! Thanks to Kinfonet I learned what is meant, too, by an internet addiction - I was hooked for a long time really.

Yes, for sure Pavani, joy and peace are good things to strive for...I wish the same for you !

'bye for now, Katy :)

Topic: Just a word of thanks... Tue, 17 Jul 2018

Hello again !

I see that it is a year since I wrote this word of thanks...tempus fugit !

I also skim-read the replies just now; it is interesting how threads go into so many seemingly unconnected topics or directions away from the opening post, isn't it? Interesting reading though...cheers.

Even though I was very naive when I joined this forum, got my signals crossed, learned firsthand about cyber-bullying, falling into very deep and hurtful water at times via Kinfonet, I remain grateful for the most part to y'all. After making a point of relaying my thanks, I wondered whether it was a faux pas - was it egoistic of me; did I sound self-congratulatory? Sorry if I did as such.

Kinfonetians don't fight shy of talking/writing about life in a serious or deeper way...Is the unexamined life worth living ? I know that this is an oft used phrase and I wonder about whether it is possible for anyone not to examine life especially at my great age; I'm extra conscious of age right now because it will be my 57th birthday on Friday. I might have appeared to Edward in Facebook to be intelligent and compassionate but I am surely not wise.

Anyway, I hope that things are good with you all.

Kind Regards, Katy

Topic: Krishnamurti and organized religion Tue, 27 Mar 2018

...A most pertinent quote (#6). Thanks again Jack

Topic: Krishnamurti and organized religion Mon, 26 Mar 2018

Hello again and thank you, Jack, for sharing the above interesting observation/revelation (#1)...seeing this element with you.

I went to a Catholic convent grammar school (aged 11-17 years). The teachers there discouraged us from becoming nuns since academia and using one's formal intelligence - or what they called 'God - given gifts'- to help others in life was emphasised though. They also taught us about other world religions and said that the greatest threat to Catholicism was the Islamic faith/tradition...(that was in the 1970's).

The convent had quite an interesting history, really, since they took Jewish children in who were fleeing the Nazis during WW2. (We were free to learn to speak any other language of our choosing except for German in memory of that particular Holocaust).

I am not a practising Catholic but have inherited a 'Catholic conscience' I guess - however liberal, really, my school was /tried to be.

As you probably know/see already a person who is not a practising Catholic in those terms is said to be a 'lapsed' Catholic. My joke about this is that I am not a lapsed Catholic but rather a collapsed one ! :)

Regards, Katy

Topic: Choiceless self-awareness Tue, 06 Feb 2018

Thank you Ken and Kirsten for the above #235

Topic: Choiceless self-awareness Mon, 05 Feb 2018

...They've got so much thing to say but when the rain falls it don't fall on one man's house - Bob Marley

Topic: Just a word of thanks... Sat, 15 Jul 2017

Hello Everyone,

I just wanted to say 'enormous thanks'...

Your collective interest, 'different kind of intelligence' K spoke about and sure erudition has definitely helped to catalyse my understanding of K's teaching - and how to write in a way which seems helpful with others 'out there' in life - especially with/for those who are being the most tortured in and by it - in/by life...in this world which presents us all with so much needless rack and ruin...the 'sense of urgency' is truly seen now by this nobody - writer ; I am typing as fast as I can !

Edward, a writer in Facebook, told me that I am 'one of the most compassionate and intelligent' writers there...Glory, this was surely on my blind side... and I owe this 'gift' to you all.

Yours humbly, Katy

p.s I hope Dev will forgive me for posting another beautiful song - and you, especially, Jack. I see/regard you as the minder of this fort !

(Bob Dylan's music and lyrics help to keep me going in the background)

Enjoy :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2XwL-IL4UY

Topic: The paradox of the "active mind" Sat, 01 Oct 2016

...A mind which is preoccupied, though, is also choicelessly so -usually. K's mind was preoccupied in that sense with whatever it was that he wanted to say or to convey - just as anyone else's is when in conversation.

A 'silent mind', cannot (by definition) simultaneously be under occupation by the noise of words/thought.

This writer finds that thought dissipates/peters out if I go for a long walk - just as I did earlier.

Walking is man's best medicine Hippocrates (probably my favourite saying !)

Topic: Enlightenment... Thu, 29 Sep 2016

We're going off topic (mostly) which is probably because as Van Morrison sang: "enlightenment don't know what it is". However, it appears to be an aspiration of sorts for many people - depending, of course, on various 'factors'.

So, unless anyone wants to write further about 'enlightenment' per se I will lock this topic tomorrow - and re-open it if more people are interested to write to this forum at some point.

Thanks again, Katy

Topic: Enlightenment... Thu, 29 Sep 2016

...Seeing that 'enlightenment' does have so many religious connotations in the traditional sense/usage of the word 'religious', it makes discussing this phenomenon extra difficult here perhaps ? I don't know.

Is a 'religious mind' always an 'enlightened' one ? (No formal answer being sought - just a tributary question for which there can be no single answer as I see this). And as I'm sure most of y'all know/see already K defined the word 'religious' in his own way.

(I am partly regretting initiating this discussion because 1. so few people are writing to this forum and 2.'enlightenment' belongs too much to the land of the unknown for people to write much about. So, I'll probably leave this discussion here - unless, of course, anyone has something further to say/write which is particularly 'pressing'. Thanks for your replies, anyway, thus far).

Topic: Enlightenment... Thu, 29 Sep 2016

https://youtu.be/GzwovTkSGk0 Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Buddhist Scholars

(I watched this video a while ago and it was not the easiest of dialogues/conversations to follow - not only because of the subject but because of language differences. However, some others reading here might find it interesting)

Topic: Enlightenment... Thu, 29 Sep 2016

jamie f wrote: I didn't use the word 'authority'. That was Jean's interpretation of what was said. I used the word 'listen' and if you're going to listen, then it makes sense to listen to someone who knows what they are talking about. Like K.

Okay Jamie...and, yes, you're quite right. I don't see any point either in conversing/inquiring together here, there and everywhere if we do not listen to each other. Only listening to K - free from context - is unhelpful for this writer/reader, too.

Topic: Enlightenment... Thu, 29 Sep 2016

Jean Gatti wrote: Didn't Buddha say that all beings are already enlightened ?

This is what you've just interpreted/gathered from Barbara O'Reilly's writing about 'enlightenment' which I copied above (#22), isn't it, Jean? However, if you read it again you will see that it is/was not quite as simple as you are suggesting.

Topic: Enlightenment... Thu, 29 Sep 2016

jamie f wrote: The problem there is that our interlocutor may themselves have a misunderstanding of their own degree of awakening, so one may be given a false impression. So it is not about a 'test' - which is silly - it is about listening to someone who knows what they are talking about and accepting what they have to say.

True enough...not so wise, perhaps, to lend 'spiritual authority' to another in life, is it, Jamie? However, if there are specific elements/attributes in/of 'enlightenment' belonging essentially to Buddhism and/or Hinduism which calls this 'self-realisation' in the main it would appear that within that framework/construct, 'vision'/view a person is either 'enlightened' or is not.

(Disclaimer: This writer, Katy, is not a theologian!)

Topic: Enlightenment... Thu, 29 Sep 2016

Jean Gatti wrote: A truly enlightened person won't have the need to test it with an outer authority ... the very need to 'confirm' enlightenment proves that there is no enlightenment ... that's a trap ...

It would appear though, Jean, that there are elements which indicate that one is enlightened (in the Buddhist sense or 'self-realisation' in Hinduism) or otherwise not such. Can there be an individual or personal interpretation of what being 'enlightened' actually means ?

Jean Gatti wrote: Didn't K say "be a light to yourself" ?

As did the Buddha before K.

Topic: Recommend, like, clap- clap... Wed, 28 Sep 2016

natarajan shivan wrote: Dev could consider this suggestion seriously, imo.

I can see the pros and cons of the recommend button, really, Nat...perhaps don't use it and/or ignore this if you don't like it(?)

Topic: Make music (Mozart) not war. Wed, 28 Sep 2016

https://youtu.be/lumbJ-FzLiA Darkwood Dawn by David Darling (cello)

Topic: Enlightenment... Wed, 28 Sep 2016

...And, further, what did Krishnamurti say about 'enlightenment' ? There's quite a lot, really, to read for oneself and I won't attempt to select, paraphrase or interpret anything...it is better to read K directly with respect to this topic, isn't it?

Topic: Enlightenment... Wed, 28 Sep 2016

Yes, for sure, Wim. Thanks.There is so much 'out there' for people to read about what 'enlightenment' is or might be, isn't there ? I just found the following (for example):

By Barbara O'Brien:

Most people have heard that the Buddha was enlightened, and that Buddhists seek enlightenment. But what does that mean, exactly? What is enlightenment, and how do you know when you've "got" it? To begin, it's important to understand that "enlightenment" is an English word that can mean several things. For example, in the West, the Age of Enlightenment was a philosophical movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that promoted science and reason over myth and superstition. In western culture, then, the word "enlightenment" is often associated with intellect and knowledge. But Buddhist enlightenment is something else. Enlightenment and Satori To add to the confusion, the word "enlightenment" has been used to translate several Asian words that don't mean precisely the same thing. For example, several decades ago English speakers were introduced to Buddhism through the writing of D.T. Suzuki (1870-1966), a Japanese scholar who had lived for a time as a Rinzai Zen monk. Suzuki used "enlightenment" to translate the Japanese word satori, derived from the verb satoru, "to know." This translation was not without justification. But in usage, satori usually refers to an experience of insight into the true nature of reality. It has been compared to the experience of opening a door, but to open a door is still a separation from what's inside the door. Partly through Suzuki's influence, the idea of spiritual enlightenment as a sudden, blissful, transformative experience became embedded in western culture. However,that's a misleading idea. Enlightenment and Bodhi (Theravada) Bodhi is a Sanskrit and Pali word that means "awakening," and it also is often translated as "enlightenment." In Theravada Buddhism, bodhi is associated with the perfection of insight into the Four Noble Truths, which brings about the cessation of dukkha (suffering; stress; dissatisfaction). The person who has perfected this insight and abandoned all defilements is an arhat, one who is liberated from the cycle of samsara. While alive he enters a sort of conditional nirvana, and at death he enjoys the peace of complete nirvana. In the Atthinukhopariyaayo Sutta of the Pali Tipitaka (Samyutta Nikaya 35.152), the Buddha said, "Then, monks, this is the criterion whereby a monk, apart from faith, apart from persuasion, apart from inclination, apart from rational speculation, apart from delight in views and theories, could affirm the attainment of enlightenment: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been accomplished, what was to be done is done, there is no further living in this world.'" Enlightenment and Bodhi (Mahayana) In Mahayana Buddhism, bodhi is associated with the perfection of wisdom, or sunyata. This is the teaching that all phenomena are empty of self-essence. Why is this important? Most of us perceive the things and beings around us as distinctive and permanent. But this view is a projection. Instead, the phenomenal world is an ever-changing nexus of causes and conditions (see also Dependent Origination). Things and beings, empty of self-essence, are neither real nor not real (see also "The Two Truths"). Thoroughly perceiving sunyata dissolves the fetters of self-clinging that cause our unhappiness. In Mahayana Buddhism, the ideal of practice is the bodhisattva, the enlightened being who remains in the phenomenal world to bring all beings to enlightenment. The bodhisattva ideal is more than altruism; it reflects the reality that none of us are separate. "Individual enlightenment" is an oxymoron. Although D.T. Suzuki and some of the first Zen teachers in the West explained enlightenment as an experience, most Zen teachers and Zen texts will tell you that enlightenment is not an experience. Not even satori is enlightenment itself. Enlightenment and Buddha Nature According to Zen legend, when the Buddha realized enlightenment he said, "Isn't it remarkable! All beings are already enlightened!" This "already enlightened" state is Buddha Nature. In Mahayana Buddhism, Buddha Nature is the inherent Buddhahood of all beings. Because all beings are already Buddha, the task is not to attain enlightenment but to reveal it. The Chinese master Huineng (638-713), the Sixth Patriarch of Ch'an (Zen), compared Buddhahood to a moon obscured by clouds. The clouds represent ignorance and defilements. When these are dropped away the moon, already present, is revealed. Nothing Special What happened to the sudden, blissful, transformative experience? Such an experience is not, by itself, enlightenment. Such an experience may -- or may not -- accompany a deep insight. But a blissful spiritual experience not grounded in practice of the Eightfold Path will not likely be transformative. Further, this practice is for a lifetime. It is not something you can cross off your "to do" list when the goal is reached. Zen teacher Barry Magid said of Master Hakuin, "Post-satori practice for Hakuin meant finally ceasing to be preoccupied with his own personal condition and attainment and to devote himself and his practice to helping and teaching others. Finally, at long last, he realized that true enlightenment is a matter of endless practice and compassionate functioning, not something that occurs once and for all in one great moment on the cushion." [From Nothing Is Hidden (Wisdom, 2013).] In some traditions you might hear that an enlightened being gains omniscience and supernatural powers. Other traditions teach that while the "enlightened being" may have remarkable attributes, this being neither is nor is not the conditional being who eats and shaves and wears socks. Shunryu Suzuki (1904-1971) said of enlightenment, "It is kind of mystery that for people who have no experience of enlightenment, enlightenment is something wonderful. But if they attain it, it is nothing. But yet it is not nothing. Do you understand? For a mother with children, having children is nothing special. That is zazen. So, if you continue this practice, more and more you will acquire something - nothing special, but nevertheless something. You may say "universal nature" or "Buddha nature" or "enlightenment." You may call is by many names, but for the person who has it, it is nothing, and it is something." But how do you know when you "have" it? Enlightenment is not a quality that can be possessed. And individuals are notoriously bad judges of their own degree of awakening. The only way to test one's insight is to present it to a dharma teacher. And don't be dismayed if what you think you've "gotten" falls apart under the teacher's scrutiny. When the insight is genuine, it won't fall apart.

Topic: Enlightenment... Wed, 28 Sep 2016

So here I am, in the middle way, having had twenty years- Twenty years largely wasted, the years of l'entre deux guerres- Trying to use words, and every attempt Is a wholy new start, and a different kind of failure Because one has only learnt to get the better of words For the thing one no longer has to say, or the way in which One is no longer disposed to say it. And so each venture Is a new beginning, a raid on the inarticulate, With shabby equipment always deteriorating In the general mess of imprecision of feeling, Undisciplined squads of emotion. And what there is to conquer By strength and submission, has already been discovered Once or twice, or several times, by men whom one cannot hope To emulate - but there is no competition - There is only the fight to recover what has been lost And found and lost again and again: and now, under conditions That seem unpropitious. But perhaps neither gain nor loss. For us, there is only the trying. The rest is not our business." T.S. Eliot, Four Quartets

Topic: Enlightenment... Wed, 28 Sep 2016

Oh well, Jean, I don't know any Dutch...do you know the phrase: "double- Dutch" ?- :)

Topic: Enlightenment... Wed, 28 Sep 2016

Hi Wim,

Thanks for your interesting post (no.14).

Gosh, you must have been a very fast cyclist ! Sorry to hear that your vision got in the way of this. And, yes, I know/see how cycling can be medicinal,too... for me, long-distance running and other 'tougher' sports used to be just great but since being ill (as well as aging !) I have only been able to enjoy gentler sports - instead of running these days I walk instead and hope to be fit enough to run again soon. (Some people do so right into old age).

With respect to emptying the mind of thought, physical activity does, for sure, do this - is very 'grounding' and also lends itself to greater 'equanimity' or feelings of 'at oneness' with Nature, too, doesn't it? A runner's high - or a cyclist's high - yay !:)

That's interesting Wim, isn't it, that in Dutch the word for 'poet' is the same as 'open' - and, for sure, reading and/or writing poems which sometimes become song lyrics when put to music are appreciated by this writer. This can also make things less 'linear' in terms of communicating 'what is' - or what some refer to as the 'eternal present'.

Please feel free to write as 'poetically'/openly as you feel to, comrades, in response to any discussions I start. It would make better sense for us each to decide for ourselves about whether music and/or references from other authors are welcome - to take responsibility for - 'moderate' - the conversations we start on an individual basis. We are all different and so have different things to bring to discussions and ways of writing, too - thankfully !

Cheers, Katy

Topic: Enlightenment... Tue, 27 Sep 2016

...And yes, Jack, I agree with your observation about 'joy'- entertainment suggests something prescribed or 'motivated' by the me or 'my' thought/intention, orchestrated and not actually 'spontaneous' in/of nature perhaps ?- I am not sure...spent the afternoon walking by the riverside the other day - then sitting on a bench watching the reflections of the sunlight in play on the water was just lovely and was free from the word (obviously).

Right now, I'm typing this in a friend's flower-filled small garden but can also hear the buzzing of some builders' power tools which is annoying, really.

Topic: Enlightenment... Tue, 27 Sep 2016

Dear Jack, Sean and Wim,

Thank you for your kind words, quotes from K- for letting me see the other side so to speak, too.

One Sunday, several years ago, I got on my bike and went along to what was advertised as a Krishnamurti video and discussion group...I remember being quite shy but was just as enthusiastic as I was shy. Much to my disappointment, however, the group facilitator suggested that we all watch the tennis together instead because Wimbledon was on. They were very nice people but I remarked to myself that if I had wanted to watch the tennis I could have done so at home !I didn't have a computer then and nor were videos of K's talks available to us on the internet.

How lovely it would be to be with y'all around a campfire with my geetar - jamming together would surely be a healthy complement - antidote, even, to the intensity of this atmosphere where we sometimes overdose on words ! I never had any formal lessons but did teach myself at the age of 17 the major and a number of minor chords from a book so can strum along; I only had a classical guitar which was extra difficult to play folk songs on because of the wide neck. Learning any instrument requires discipline as I'm sure y'all already know/see- is not an addiction talking. As I've aged though, my relationship with music - both listening and playing - has changed; I like the peace and quite very much but sometimes this silence can feel like thunder !as Leonard Cohen sang.

Anyway, only talking /writing can also be or become an addiction in my view - too much of anything can be an addiction, can't it, comrades ? This said, a very good friend of mine said that writing is medicine.

Cheers, Katy

Topic: Enlightenment... Mon, 26 Sep 2016

This room is so stuffy I can hardly breathe ! (Bob Dylan) ...so I think I'll take a hike - not write here further. Hardly anyone else does, anyway.

Dev has been very quick to criticise me without actually understanding the 'why of it'. Why go to a place where one is not welcome ? There are lots of other places to write to concerning K's teachings.

All the best, comrades. Katy

Topic: Enlightenment... Mon, 26 Sep 2016

...Subsequent questions:

What is the relationship between joy and entertainment?

What is our interest in reading K with respect to ending sorrow if we are not free to share (our) joy ?

What is the relationship between freedom and spontaneity ?

Are discussions not also a form of 'entertainment' - is there not entertainment residing, too, in 'the word' albeit 'serious'?

Did the words of the song 'enlightenment' in the opening post evoke anything for anyone else reading here...and, if so, what ?

What would you say/see to be the link between transformation (of consciousness), self-negation and 'enlightenment'? Are these one and the same in your view. Or do you feel resistant to talking about that which is more than likely an 'unknown' to you/me/us - fearing that discussing 'enlightenment' will be nothing more than 'talking out of our hats' ?

Are questions actually helpful ? This writer could list probably a hundred questions with respect to this word - possibility or actuality for some folks of 'enlightenment'-but is this of any help for the reader, really ? Also, if it is a truism that the answer is in the question, why do we converse, enquire together at all here?

What is your understanding of 'being a light to' yourself?

...and so on !

If music be the food of love play on Shakespeare :)

I hope y'all are having a good day... your peace is my peace comrades, Katy

Topic: Enlightenment... Mon, 26 Sep 2016

Hi Jack,

The difference - or problem rather- though, as I see this, is that we are not in the same room and e-conversations are (obviously) different.

It was my hope that this most pertinent song from Van Morrison might serve as a good conversation starter...(one time he was on stage he thanked Krishnamurti for what he'd learned from him ).

Another good reason for including relevant songs or quotes from different authors sometimes is that these help us to see K's teachings in context..."the word is not (always) the thing"!

Sharing a song can also help to 'harmonise' and be evocative, too, in a useful way with respect to e-converstions. There is an understandable 'need', in fact, that this writer sees to be free to complement the serious - helping to unlock people from the serious - or rather too serious element of the word alone here at times....especially since we are are not in the same room/atmosphere. (You are, of course, free to disagree with this observation of mine - and just have !).

For me, a general discussion is whatever people want to bring to it- everyone has different things to bring and too many rules can for sure be 'conversation - killers'. However, if Dev wants to introduce a new rule based on this that is up to him.

Life is a struggle of opposites between the serious and the frivolous (Virginia)

I don't only post songs, do I? in fact I am far too serious here (mostly) and the last thread I initiated of a discussion between K and Iris Murdoch only received one reply!

Thanks though, Jack, for telling us what K said about this.

Regards, Katy

Topic: Enlightenment... Mon, 26 Sep 2016

Actually, Dev, Van Morrison was greatly influenced by Krishnamurti's teaching and we do not only have to use words to initiate and/ or generate the right atmosphere for a general discussion, do we?

Sometimes a song or a quote from another author points to or says something better than just one's own words and it is surely up to me how I want to connect and/or communicate with others here. If you want to you can always make a rule saying "don't post any songs or relevant quotes from authors who are not Jiddu Krishnamurti". Unless or until you do that, comrade, I will continue to do so.

Cheers, Katy

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