Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Tom Paine's Forum Posts

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Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 3169 in total
Topic: The Future Of Humanity Fri, 21 Jun 2019

Dan McDermott wrote: That feeling of being a "separate" continuos self is what is being questioned's what divides us. Physically we're different....I'm short or're tall or thin or Black or brown. I'm white. But it's the psychological divisions that we're looking at. It's those that have created all the wars and misery. That K said are fundamentally false. So why is idiot? giving great significance to those? There doesn't seem to be a point to emphasize those

Topic: The Future Of Humanity Fri, 21 Jun 2019

idiot ? wrote: K talks about the common consciousness of mankind, how you are that group consciousness, and how that means that you are not an individual as you think you are. Those are all issues we have been discussing. And I for one have been questioning: Just because we share so much, that doesn't make us the same.

Functionally our consciousness is the same...whether we are an atheist or a Fundamentalist Christian or Hindu. We all have beliefs, ideals, conclusions, ambitions, fears, attachments, desires, hopes, assumptions. Functionally we are the same in that sense. And that’s the sense K is talking of, as I see it.

Topic: The Future Of Humanity Sat, 15 Jun 2019

Sean Hen wrote: idiot ? wrote:

Did K change totally? If he did, did mankind change totally? If mankind did, then why are we still in violence, conflict, suffering?

As far as I can tell, K did indeed "change totally". It seems very clear that mankind didn't change totally.

K said that if one man changes totally he will affect the whole. He didn't say that the effect of his changing will be to totally change the whole. He had an effect, as Einstein's discovery had an effect...not totally changing mankind but having an effect. There's a difference, obviously. I don't think he ever said that if one man changes totally, mankind will be totally changed. Not sure if I expressed this correctly....just got up...need my morning coffee!

Topic: The Future Of Humanity Fri, 14 Jun 2019

idiot ? wrote: It is quite a jump from mankind sharing similar feelings and experiences to there being only a single whole consciousness for mankind. At the very least, that denies or reduces the importance of the particular and asserts or emphasizes the general.

Yes, quite a jump. This ties in with his statement that if one person changes totally, it affects the whole of mankind.

Topic: Are we really "progressing" in our understanding? Wed, 05 Jun 2019

Dan McDermott wrote: what occupies me a lot here and I do keep up with the news, are the comings and goings of the animal life. They seem to me to be totally alive and totally in harmony with their surroundings in ways that we're not.

I’m no expert, but I think the ‘lower ‘ animals may be just as violent as we are, but they don’t have any remorse or guilt. They also don’t have beliefs, ideals, goals, time ...conceptual thinking. And these that have amplified the effects of our animal violence to such an insane degree.

Topic: Are we really "progressing" in our understanding? Wed, 05 Jun 2019

Dan McDermott wrote: Very few Tom, very few, that's my guess...but I live out in the woods, what's it like in the city?

I think you probably realize it was a rhetorical question, Dan. If you’re so isolated that you’re not sure of the answer, just turn on the news for 2 minutes.

Topic: Are we really "progressing" in our understanding? Wed, 05 Jun 2019

Dan McDermott wrote: When the stupidity and ignorance of what is going on is felt deeply, and is understood that that very stupidity is what you are, then the action that comes from that may be the only thing that could bring about the radical change that could save humanity

Many of us feel deeply the stupidity and ignorance of our present way of living. But I think on a subtle or not so subtle level we feel that it’s not me....that it’s the Republicans or the capitalists or the fundamentalist Christians that are causing all the problems. How many of us feel deeply that we are responsible for the mess....or as you say, we ARE the mess...that we are the world?

Topic: Are we really "progressing" in our understanding? Tue, 04 Jun 2019

My question is what we should do and how we should act when we observe something outside of us that is very, very destructive. For example, if capitalism is not regulated, a CEO has the obligation to maximise profits for his/her shareholders and ignore external costs.

No one can tell another what right action should be when faced with the total disorder of capitalism. If you are moved to take political or social action, I don’t think anyone would argue with that. But do we want to turn this forum into just another place to discuss politics or social or environmental issues? There’s already more than enough places online to do that. I’m not sure what discussing the evils of capitalism has to do with the teaching. I think we all agree it’s evil and exploitive and a threat to the survival of the planet.

Topic: Are we really "progressing" in our understanding? Tue, 04 Jun 2019

Huguette . wrote: Capitalism is not the cause of the problem. The cause is the disordered psyche. Greed, fear, hate, measure, comparison, etc., are symptomatic of the disorder. And the root of it is self-ignorance, isn't it?

Yes, all that in bold existed long before capitalism didn't primitive societies? Man against man begins in consciousness. It's the self...the 'me'... that's the cause of violence in the world...the cause of the world disorder. Weren't there warring primitive tribes in ancient times? There were kings and the pharaohs in biblical times. And in the Middle Ages we had feudalism with all it's horrors and exploitation. So man will always find ways to battle and exploit his fellow man unless there's change inwardly...he doesn't need a modern political or economic system to do so.

Topic: Are we really "progressing" in our understanding? Mon, 03 Jun 2019

Sean Hen wrote:

he cooks up a huge pot of soup and goes out at night with a group of friends to feed homeless people sleeping on the street. Now I wouldn't say that my friend's actions here are breeding more conflict.

The issue, it seems to me is, am I violent? Am I perpetuating violence...conflict? Is my consciousness in conflict? If violence/conflict is in 'me' then, inevitably, it will affect the world. What your friend does or does not do is really irrelevant to understanding myself and my own conflict

Topic: Are we really "progressing" in our understanding? Mon, 03 Jun 2019

Sean Hen wrote: he cooks up a huge pot of soup and goes out at night with a group of friends to feed homeless people sleeping on the street. Now I wouldn't say that my friend's actions here are breeding more conflict.

Probably not, but as long as he's in conflict himself, he will be breeding conflict in one way or another....not in this specific act of feeding the homeless, but most assuredly in other ways. Perhaps his drinking brings conflict with his spouse, if he has one. Or prevents him from being responsible in his relationships in daily living. Hopefully he doesn't get behind the wheel and drive drunk. Look at the violence he's doing to his his liver. I'm old enough to remember many anti war activists from the Vietnam war era. Many of them were very violent people. But they did help to end that particular war, not denying the good in that. And then we got Bush and another war...and on and on.

Topic: Are we really "progressing" in our understanding? Mon, 03 Jun 2019

Huguette . wrote: Isn’t the essential thing for each one of us to understand the relationship between the external problems and the inner conflict so that, whatever our station in society, our understanding acts and there is an organic recovery?

Good point, Huguette! As long as I'm in conflict, I breed conflict in the world. Capitalism is based upon competition....fragmentation....the boss/owner vs the worker and my corporation vs. the country vs yours, etc. This is a result of our inner fragmentation, beliefs, and violence, isn't it....seeing 'me' separate from 'you', and 'me' separate from 'not me'?

Topic: Are we really "progressing" in our understanding? Mon, 03 Jun 2019

Sean Hen wrote: Peaceful campaigning and awareness raising can be very powerful ways to bring about changes in policy of both corporations and governments. Isn't this a sensible thing to do given the gravity of the situation?

It seems to be so, but it's not working. Friends of ours...much older, from my parents' generation...spent their whole lives working peacefully for change....they are in their 90's now, if they're still living. Well many, many, people like them spent their lives doing this 'awareness raising' and we wound up with Donald Trump. BTW, they also worked with Ralph Nader, who was fighting the good fight his whole life (ran for president against Bush and Gore, taking much needed votes away from Gore) and wound up almost totally forgotten today.

Topic: Are we really "progressing" in our understanding? Sun, 02 Jun 2019

Sean Hen wrote: However, in terms of saving the planet what needs to be done is to campaign to change the system which is destroying it. If we continue to live in a capitalistic system which is driven by growth in GDP as a measure of success, this will push the environment beyond a very dangerous tipping point.

The rich and powerful will willingly give up their vast wealth and power? (A rhetorical question). Since the answer is obviously no, the alternative would be the kind of violent revolution that took place under Mao in China. The rich capitalists would have to be rounded up and imprisoned...or exterminated, when they resist. How many millions were imprisoned and murdered during Mao's revolution? I'm all in favor of a more progressive income tax here in the increasing the tax on the most wealthy to 70%, but even that relatively simple change is not likely to get passed by a congress that works for the rich and powerful. The core issues are division, greed and power (for me) which are characteristics of the human mind....human consciousness. K always pointed out that change must begin me.

Topic: What can one learn about one self. Thu, 21 Feb 2019

I worked with the handicapped for many years O.S....but enough said about this issue. It has no bearing on what we are here for.

Topic: What can one learn about one self. Thu, 21 Feb 2019

The picture is not clear . seriously what is it? Is someone on the wheelchair, is that you ?

It’s just another image One Self....and the image is not the person. And I’ll leave it at that. In this day of the internet I could put up a photo of the pope and claim it was me :)

Topic: What can one learn about one self. Thu, 21 Feb 2019

Is it for us to feel sorry for you and listen to you or what?

It’s for you to envy me, One Self, :)

Topic: What can one learn about one self. Thu, 21 Feb 2019

Wim Opdam wrote: Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

One Self: I don't know what it is but your slogan makes me sick to look at. Honestly, the language is retarded.

Your post, One Self, speaks volumes about who you are, sad to say. Wim is not a native English speaker, btw.

Topic: What can one learn about one self. Thu, 21 Feb 2019

There's your answer. NYC

Chicago or D.C. is different? I guess you’re being facetious? We have an opioid epidemic in a whole lot of states, I think, and alcoholism and cigarettes everywhere....even young kids are prescribed anti depressants. A fairly large percentage of adults take them daily along with their cigarettes, beer, overeating etc. Not a lot of happy people I don’t think in modern industrialized societies.

Topic: What can one learn about one self. Thu, 21 Feb 2019

Life is what we make of it. Is it not?

That’s a nice cliche. It makes it much easier to ignore those at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder. Sure, if they’re poor and miserable, it’s what they made of their life. But who is this ‘we’ but a product of his conditioning....his upbringing...the parents, the culture, economics, school, church, etc.? we didn’t choose our parents, our school teachers, acquaintances, economic status, religious background. The one who tries to make something of his life is not separate from the social conditioning, right? Or is there a separate ‘me’....separate from the world...the society?

Topic: What can one learn about one self. Wed, 20 Feb 2019

Nevertheless, about half of Americans are fulfilled in their work.

I would like to see this statistic broken down by income and college background. I don’t imagine anywhere near 1/2 of low paid, non college graduates are happy on the job. As I said, if it were so, why is there an overwhelming problem with drugs, alcohol, smoking, depression, and other signs of extreme unhappiness. Sure I can imagine that many teachers are fulfilled at work, many physicians, dentists, dental technicians, medical technicians, social workers, supervisors, counselors, law professionals, and so on. The poor slob pumping gas on the side of the highway in the hot sun for 8 hours, breathing diesel fumes isn’t fulfilled. But where would we be without the automobile? The guys cleaning the restrooms at the port authority in NYC are fulfilled? The people working in the slaughter house or chicken packing plant? I’ve known quite a few baristas from Starbucks personally and most are NOT happy on the job. Just one example out of many I could give from friends and acquaintances....even a couple of high paid engineers I knew said the pressure at work from the higher ups was brutal. There’s not much happiness in our high tech society I don’t think. At least not here on the East Coast where I was born and raised, not far from NYC. When you ask someone ‘how’s it going?’, a common reply is, ‘Same shit, different day.’ I used to hear that a lot and I found it to be a very depressing reply.

Topic: What can one learn about one self. Wed, 20 Feb 2019

Tom Paine wrote:

...To slave all day long in a repetitive mind numbing job...

idiot? Yes. You're painting the work life as negative and it certainly can be. For other conflicted selves, it can be quite fulfilling in various ways.

Quite fulfilling for a small minority. Why do you think we have an opioid crisis in the US? Is it because so many people are fulfilled? Not to mention alcohol and smoking, which are epidemic worldwide...overeating. If most folks we’re fulfilled at work these problems wouldn’t be so severe. You’re living in an ivory tower if you think anything but a smallminority of workers find working driving a truck or bus all day for 8 or 10 hours, or standing at the checkout at Walmart fulfilling. Did you ever work on an assembly line? I did. It was close to torture. Like 60% of workers newly hired on the assembly line at GM don’t make it through the first month. I meet people every day, bus drivers, cashiers, baristas in Starbucks, cabbies, people pumping gas on busy highways in the freezing cold and brutal heat. Almost no one I meet in the course of my day is happy. A few, yes, but a minority. And the way modern society is structured with a majority of workers being literal wage slaves is a major issue which society doesn’t want to address....for obvious reasons. It’s tge slave masters who hold most of the power. Sorry to go off the topic, but I felt your statement needed correcting, idiot?

Topic: What can one learn about one self. Wed, 20 Feb 2019

It is important to ask, Does K teaching make you lazy? If I am free of endeavor, of outwardly projecting a conflicted self, do I cease to accomplish and contribute? Ultimately, perhaps, the answer is no. There is activity of love. But how many of us really love, and meanwhile, musing about K, lots doesn't get done?

Without the self the whole high tech modern world would likely be impossible. Would anyone slave away on a maddeningly paced auto assembly line if there was no fear...if they saw the conflict and confusion involved in rushing and making an effort 8 hours a day....every day? Would they lay the rails for trains hundreds of miles in all kinds of harsh weather if there was no fear? Slave away in a McDonalds over a hot grill flipping burgers for 8 hours a day, tired and bored out of their mind? Free of the self and effort would there be workers for our steel build electric power generating plants? Even to pick fruit and vegetables all day long in the hot sun on the farm? To slave all day long in a repetitive mind numbing job in a high tech iPhone factory in China?

Topic: Can we ask the right question? Thu, 24 Jan 2019

end this beating around the bush that seems to me is not getting anywhere. Don't you think so?

Yes. It’s simply another trick of the intellect to assume it can ask the “right question” and from there go on to find ....what? Happiness? Peace? Enlightenment? And even if there was a right question for me, why assume it would be the right one for you? Perhaps I should simply leave this thread to those who want to pursue the topic since to me it’s entirely pointless.

Topic: Can we ask the right question? Thu, 24 Jan 2019

Dan McDermott wrote: We're investigating ourselves because we want to 'understand' what we are and how we came to be what we have become, right? And the disparate reactions, conclusions, among us, are inevitable since there is no road map for this. No 'end game'. We're truly alone in this.

But to your questions: are we free of conflict, I'd change "we" to 'I' and the answer is 'no'? "Don't we (I) have moments of anger, fear conflict, confusion? The answer is "Yes".

So to go back to your question in #136: “is this some hypothetical person? ...” I’ll say, yes, but it could be any of us who is feeling anger.

Topic: Can we ask the right question? Thu, 24 Jan 2019

Tom Paine wrote:

Let’s say I’m a father of a young teen who is doing poorly

Dan: Is this some hypothetical person?... Has he searched, read K. and others? Observed himself?

This is you, me, anyone who has anger and conflict in their life. We may have read K and have observed ourselves, but are we free of conflict? Don’t we have moments of anger, fear, conflict, confusion? Or perhaps some of us are free of it all. I doubt it, but it’s possible, I suppose. I used the above as an example of anger since anger was what was being discussed.

Topic: Can we ask the right question? Thu, 24 Jan 2019

Dan McDermott wrote: So is it 'possible' not to go to the "trash bin" (Ken's term) and react in the 'old' way to each 'new' situation?... Is that the "question"?

But the mind is conditioned. That’s a fact. The ‘trash bin’ is a fact. I’ve been conditioned as a strict Catholic and someone criticizes organized religion. Bam! Anger immediately arises. How do you see that ‘I’ can avoid NOT going to the trash bin, Dan? I think I am at least somewhat with you on the question you are asking in the first paragraph of your message above. Perhaps we can explore this better if we use a real world example. Let’s say I’m a father of a young teen who is doing poorly in school. I find I’m often full of anger when relating to my son’s poor behavior. He won’t spend time on his studiesand listens to horrible rap music. He hangs around with some of his peers who use drugs or drink. He wears horrible teenage that in and of themselves trigger anger in me. I don’t enjoy being angry with him all the time, and he obviously doesn’t enjoy it either. But what can I do? I want him to succeed in life and he’s becoming a slacker...and this fact causes great anger and fear in me. I’ve tried various punishments and they haven’t worked. They only alienate him further and bring us further apart. I try to talk to him and he shuts me out. Perhaps much of my anger is a result of how I myself was conditioned by MY farther, and how HE was conditioned by his own father....and the conditioning of the church and the society. A friend of mine growing up was beaten by his father every time he returned home with bad grades on his school report card. His father was a devout Christian. So anger often arises in me. I hate living with anger like this. I love my son, but I can’t bear the thought of him becoming a ‘failure’ in life, and his behavior causes great anger in me. I want to get to the bottom of this terrible conflict....the conflict between what my son is, and what I want him to be. How do I begin?

Topic: Can we ask the right question? Wed, 23 Jan 2019

Huguette . wrote: So time is manufactured by thought-memory and, without time, there's no desire or effort. It is time which drives desire and effort. So without time, desire, effort, there's only what is - fear or anger. If there's only fear - without effort - it can be observed that fear ends. No?

But thought-memory is there in the brain cells. There’s no fear without it, as You said. So in a moment of fear, one can’t say, ‘without thought memory’....or ‘I will look at fear without thought”. They’re two sides of the coin, no? If I’ve been raised as a strict Catholic, I may experience fear related to that background, even though the conditioning may be unconscious. So where there is fear, there is either conscious or unconscious thought. And you are saying that I can simply put aside all my conditioned background thought reactions...when there is fear? How? That background is not separate from the fear as I understand it. Sorry, but this point you and Dan are discussing seems confusing.

Topic: Can we ask the right question? Tue, 08 Jan 2019

Do you mean that the self, which is the me with all his attributes, his images, of himself and of the others, his believes, his envy, his jalousy, his ambitions, his conclusions , his hurts, his dreams and so on is what you named the center?

Yes, I think that’s what Paul is saying....the center is the self....and the self is based upon the past....memory...and projection of this past into the imagined future in order to sustain itself. He can correct me if I’ve misunderstood.

Topic: Can we ask the right question? Sun, 06 Jan 2019

What is at the centre of oneself? What is the 'I' that says, 'I exist'?

Thought/memory isn’t it?

Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 3169 in total