Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Mon, 04 Nov 2019

idiot ? wrote: Yes, it is wonderful that you live somewhere different than where you grew up and see interesting cultural and language differences.

Hello idiot?. Yes, I think it is interesting to have different cultural references. Perhaps this does help one see things a little from the outside. Or maybe not. Anyway, I enjoyed hearing about life and language in Los Angeles. People, places and countries are always more complex than our mental images of them, aren't they? Take Spain for example - although Castillian Spanish is spoken throughout the country, there are several other official languages including Catalan, Basque and Galician. Catalan is particularly widely spoken in Catalonia and is the mother tongue of many of the inhabitants there. As you travel around Spain you can enjoy the regional culinary specialities as the the tradition of cooking is still quite strong. Many dishes contain meat or seafood which is not so good for the vegetarian. Still, there are plenty of markets selling high quality pulses, eggs, fruit, vegetables, cheeses and wines.

I think Krishnamurti had a fondness for Italy. In one of the Krishnamurti readers, I think, he writes about sitting around the dinner table with a group of people including a famous avante-guard Italian film director who was almost certainly Federico Fellini. I remember while I was at Brockwood Park in the late 1980s I met an Italian woman and I commented on this. "Oh", she said. "I was at that dinner too." I thought that that must have been a pretty interesting experience.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Thu, 31 Oct 2019

idiot ? wrote: I agree with what you write in post 153, however I think we have to be careful of the last sentence that I have quoted above. I have known people, and you probably have, too, that are so worried about not upsetting others that they walk around on egg shells. There's a point where you are so nice and accommodating that you are no longer genuine. Sometimes the kindest thing is honesty, delivered with care, and it may be somewhat upsetting.

I think what you have written is very true. It's often difficult to get this right and I am sure I am sometimes guilty of compromising honesty by being a bit too nice. One interesting thing is how there are cultural differences in expressing things in a frank, honest manner. Although it's obviously a huge generalisation, I would say that here in Spain, and perhaps in the Mediterranean in general, people usually express how they feel in quite a direct, frank manner. In the UK, there is often a tendency to not talk about certain taboo things in case this upsets people. Honesty can be very communicative if delivered with care.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Thu, 31 Oct 2019

idiot ? wrote: But that aside, yes, it's important to be aware of feeling emotionally hurt and how that may reveal attachment or whatever. But to condemn yourself? There's a loving, kind way to be aware, whether it's of yourself or others.

This is also how I see things. It is indeed important to observe, be aware of and understand the feeling of emotional hurt in ourselves. This is true of other feelings such as anger and fear. Can we observe and understand these powerful feelings as they arise? Can we see what is at the root of the cause of these feelings? I see this as one of the biggest day-to-day challenges we all face. In my experience, very few people are actually capable of this kind of self-observation. However, surely, as idiot? says, there's a loving, kind way to be aware. If we're at all sensitive to other people, we surely won't go around upsetting them unnecessarily.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Fri, 25 Oct 2019

One Self wrote: I think that we don't take the poisonous snake analogy seriously. That is the problem.

The thing about having a poisonous snake in the room is that it forces us to live and act in the present moment because of immediate danger. With idiot's example of eating Doritos, we don't see the danger clearly and the negative effects of eating them are probably a long way off. It's a kind of "live now pay later" situation. Does seeing things with great clarity bring us into contact with the present moment?

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Tue, 22 Oct 2019

idiot ? wrote: As to yoga at K centers, please look at which shows a number of upcoming "Yoga + Inquiry" events.

You know, if there were pole-dancing or stud poker events advertised at K centres I'd probably find it a bit odd, but is there really anything wrong with "Yoga + Inquiry" events?

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Tue, 22 Oct 2019

idiot ? wrote: To me, the whole - K did yoga so I'll do it, too - is a little silly.

Hi idiot?. Like Jack, I'm confused as to where this comment is coming from. Is it connected to anything that has been written on this thread? I mentioned that I'd done yoga many years ago but I'm not aware of anybody suggesting that they should do yoga because K did it.

Anyway, there is the question of the value of doing yoga. I can only speak about my own experience. I attended a Kundalini Yoga class when I lived in Scotland about 30 years ago. Kundalini is a very energetic, dynamic form of yoga and after the stretching and breathing exercises the teacher would take us through a deep relaxation at the end of the session when we were all physically tired. This consisted of the students lying on their backs in silence. The teacher would then ask us to become aware of what was going on both inside our bodies and the sounds in and outside the room. He would ask us to observe in silence, becoming aware of each thought that entered our head and watching as it left.

I felt I got a lot out of attending this class once a week. It seemed to energise me both physically and mentally. Sitting or lying in silence with a gentle voice guiding us through a deep relaxation helping to bring attention and awareness to what was going on around us was a pleasant and interesting experience. I certainly felt a sensation of well-being and never regarded it as a little silly.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Tue, 22 Oct 2019

Jack Pine wrote: Gentlemen, I know "expanding of consciousness" has various popular meanings and I think I know what you, Sean and Dan, are referring to but it raises the question with respect to what K pointed out: Do we want to expand the consciousness or move beyond it? Maybe expanding awareness and freeing the mind of conditioning is what you were referring to?

Hi Jack. I don't know what happens when someone takes psilocybin or other psychedelic drugs. I would certainly not think that it was a good idea to take such drugs given that the mind is such a delicate thing. However, I have known people who have taken magic mushrooms and the like and have ended up sitting in front of a tree, staring at it for about fifteen minutes and later claiming that they felt a profound connection with said tree. What does this mean? I have no idea. Perhaps it goes back to what Dan was speaking about earlier - that we all live in our own small, conditioned envelope or whatever. Perhaps some people have taken psilocybin and broken out of their tiny, conditioned space temporarily and felt more connected with life around them. When the drug wears off then I assume the person goes back to their conditioned envelope once again.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Mon, 21 Oct 2019

idiot ? wrote: In the future I may devour a bag of Doritos or I may abstain from them. But in the moment there is clear seeing of the fact about something and there is change that is not apart from that seeing.

Hello idiot?. As far as I can see, here in the Doritos example, a high level of awareness acts as a kind of intelligence which guides action. It's like going too close to a cliff edge and intelligence automatically kicking in and telling you to get back. Whether it's transformation or choiceless awareness or whatever, a clarity of seeing what is actually going on around us seems to automatically guide action.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Mon, 21 Oct 2019

Dan McDermott wrote: Thank you for your response to my post about the brain's part in all this. Rather than a neurologist's view on all this, I was interested in a layman approach. We both (all) have a brain(s) and it's pretty much the same one. We've always heard since childhood that only 10% percent of it is used. Did we ever ask "why" is that so? Why such a small amount? And why do these brains bring about such differences in each of us? Is it that they have become small conditioned 'boxes' and that brings about these differences? And without these 'boxes', these individual 'I's, this narrow, limited circuitry, would humanity have the possibility to not be all over the place: killing, cheating, torturing, grabbing, loving,helping etc.? Can we go into this as first-hand 'owners of these three organs: the reptilian, the animal, and the neo-cortex, (intellectual) brains? And leave the scientific work of the 'experts' out?

Hi Dan and Jack. I agree with both of you that this is a very interesting subject. We have the point about drugs such as psilocybin that can alter or expand one's consciousness. Given that the brain is such a delicate organ, there is certainly a risk involved in taking substances which have mind altering effects. Are there other ways in which we can expand our consciousness without running the risk of experiencing trauma? Many years ago I used to do Kundalini yoga. I found it very powerful in terms of the effect it had on the body and the mind. It seemed as if the physical stretching of the body also had the effect of stretching the mind in some way. I understand that Krishnamurti had a daily yoga routine. Did this help him to maintain the level of alertness and clarity that he displayed?

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Sat, 19 Oct 2019

idiot ? wrote: If Fred the plumber says that nationalism divides people and creates unnecessary conflict between people, then either what he's saying is true or it's false. Maybe Fred the plumber realizes it, no longer puts a flag on his front porch and no longer sings the national anthem. Maybe he just heard K say it and it made sense to him. Maybe he still puts a flag on the front porch. Is Fred getting a bit uppity saying this about nationalism? Who really knows anything about Fred the plumber and what difference does it make? The important question is what is really true about nationalism. And in understanding what is true about nationalism, is it dropped?

I think Fred the plumber's statement about nationalism isn't really too problematic. However, what if Fred says, "Happiness is a timeless state". Here Fred's statement seems to be true according to Krishnamurti. But has Fred worked this out for himself or is he just repeating something he doesn't really understand? Does it matter? Well, I think it does. If we just repeat truths that we don't understand then the original truth of the statement is diminished, surely.

I'm not suggesting that you idiot?, didn't understand the statement "When truth is clearly seen there is transformation." I just meant that the meaning of this statement needs to be illustrated and clarified by examples. I see you have just done this with the Doritos example so thanks for that.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Fri, 18 Oct 2019

Ken D wrote: Language is a funny thing. You can do most anything with it

I would say that it's a fascinating and enriching thing.

“Language is a process of free creation; its laws and principles are fixed, but the manner in which the principles of generation are used is free and infinitely varied. Even the interpretation and use of words involves a process of free creation.” - Noam Chomsky

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Fri, 18 Oct 2019

idiot ? wrote: After all, an important question K addresses is: "Why haven't we changed?" Does that matter at all to you? Of course, grammar might be more entertaining.

If we are to discuss something as complex as "Why haven't we changed?" in a serious manner on an online forum we need to communicate with each other using words. I try to be precise as possible in my use of words in order to convey meaning clearly and accurately. Of course, sometimes I fail. I gently pointed out your error concerning your response to Jack writing, "Are you transformed?". It appears you did not like this. I'm sorry if I offended you in any way but I do reserve the right to clarify meaning when needed.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Fri, 18 Oct 2019

One Self wrote: "Transformed" is a verb . "Tired" is an adjective!

Well, I don't claim to be an expert in applied linguistics, but here is what I understand:

"to transform" and "to tire" are both verbs. They are both regular verbs ending in "ed" as the past simple form and past participle form are "transformed" and "tired" respectively. Examples of these two verbs in past simple form would be:

"I transformed my kitchen by painting it yellow."

"I tired my dog out yesterday by going for a long walk."

The adjectives "tired" and "transformed" have the same form as the past participle of the verbs and are sometimes known as participle adjectives. Examples of use of these adjectives are:

"Are you tired?" - "tired" is an adjective describing the state of a person here.

"Are you transformed?" - "transformed is an adjective describing the state of a person here as well.

As I said, this is my understanding. Please correct me if I am wrong. Just a final thought - when grammatical truth is seen clearly, is there transformation?

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Fri, 18 Oct 2019

"When the truth is clearly seen, there is transformation."

Dan McDermott wrote:

Well why doesn't it 'imply' that they have indeed seen the 'truth' in a particular moment and wish to share that with others?

Yes, it may indeed imply this. That's why I gave the example of seeing anger rise within yourself, becoming aware of it and the anger immediately transforming. I suppose it's the sentence without context that I find open to misinterpretation.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Wed, 16 Oct 2019

I agree with Dan that this is a very interesting debate. I hope we can continue without too much conflict.

idiot ? wrote: First of all, "transformed" is past tense, as One Self pointed out.

From a linguistic point of view, I think that it's more complicated than this. The sentence "Are you transformed?" is not actually in the past. The verb in this sentence is "are" (second person of the verb "to be") in the present simple tense. The word "transformed" in the sentence is a participle adjective. That means that the past participle of the verb "to transform" is acting as an adjective. It's similar to the sentence, "Are you tired?". The question is asking about a present state of tiredness. The cause of the tiredness may have been in the past but the state of being tired is in the present. So the question, "Are you transformed?" is talking about now rather than the past.

Anyway, I don't think this alters what we are all saying about transformation. I think the key point is this - When someone says, "When the truth is clearly seen there is transformation.", there is an implication that the speaker has clearly seen the truth. It's all very well for Krishnamurti to say this, but if someone else says it, what does it imply? I don't know the answer to this question.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Tue, 15 Oct 2019

Jack Pine wrote: Idiot?. Today you posted this line in a post on another forum. It was as follows:

idiot? wrote: When the truth is clearly seen there is transformation.

This is what I was trying to point out in some other posts of mine recently. Have you been transformed?

Jack's post above was followed by some posts talking about criticism. Well, I may be missing something here but I can't see any criticism in Jack's message. He seems to be asking for clarification. I for one am very much in favour of clarity when we discuss K's teaching.

Far be it from me to answer on idiot's behalf, but I understood the transformation that idiot? was talking about as the change that occurs when something is seen clearly. For example, you are offended and see anger rising inside you. You become aware of this anger, understand it and there is instant change and action. This is something that anyone can observe. I assumed that idiot? was not talking about a transformation of consciousness of the kind Krishnamurti seemingly went through and that he was not implying that he had gone through this himself. However, only idiot? can clear this up.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Sat, 12 Oct 2019

Yes, and those who are skillful necessarily have a level of awareness. Certainly with more awareness there is less conflict. Because awareness and love are not really separate.

Hi. Above is a quote from idiot?. The question that I think Jack raises is whether such a quote is based on observation or is purely theoretical. Please correct me if I got that wrong Jack.

I would say that what is said in the quote can at least in part if not completely, be directly observed in one's daily life. An example - I spend hours cooking a vegetable lasagna after having invited on old friend to dinner. My friend comes and shows no interest in me or the lasagna. He spends the entire dinner boasting about what he's achieved over the last few years.

This situation could lead to conflict by me feeling offended at my friend's lack of sensitivity. I could make a barbed comment intended to deflate my friend's ego and he may react with anger. I would say that with greater awareness I could understand that my friend has had many very bad experiences in the last few years. I understand that his boasting is a kind of defence mechanism. I gently guide the conversation away from his achievements and on to something that interests us both.

Greater awareness and understanding in the example above has avoided potential conflict and there is at least compassion.

Of course I could be completely wrong about this.

Topic: Is there a heaven? God? Or is it just an illusion we have been conditioned to accept? Fri, 11 Oct 2019

Jack Pine wrote: Isn't it correct that with K the understanding, love, peace, ending of conflict and all the rest can only be when the center, the self has disappeared? But by claiming to have understood all of these things, to be living all of these things they have actually expanded the self and the images that sustain the self, the ego.

It seems that the ego is there with all of us and can raise its head at any point. It's easy to make the mistake of sitting back and thinking, "I know all about the ego and have left it behind now". Surely all we can do is be watchful of the ego. Doesn't it all come back to constant awareness from moment to moment?

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Thu, 10 Oct 2019

idiot ? wrote: Only the very rare individual steps out of the wave, not by being apart, not by retreating like a monk, not by a path, not by a method, not by a savior. The rare individual sees what is true and the truth transforms. The truth is that division of any kind is conflict.

Hello idiot?. Is there a question of degree here? We all know people who are skillful in being able to flow along and have minimum conflict in their lives whereas others are constantly in conflict with many people around them. Even Krishnamurti seemed to have a certain amount of conflict in his life with Rajagopal and others. I don't mean that as a criticism, only that perhaps a certain degree of conflict is inevitable and all we can do is be aware of when we are creating division around us. What do you think?

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Thu, 10 Oct 2019

Jack Pine wrote: But do we see that nationalism and organized religion is no different than racism? My country and your country. My god and your god.

Hello Jack. I don't know about this. All I can say is that in the circles that I move in there are not many people who believe in organised religion or nationalism in the sense of one country being superior to another. Most people I know are internationalists rather than nationalists. However, there is still a lot of conflict in those aforementioned circles. I've seen the most "alternative" people at each other's throats. Division, conflict and strife seem to pervade all aspects of our lives. So while organised religion and nationalism are undoubtedly two major sources of division between people, there seems to be much more to it than that. Well, I'm sure you are already well aware of that.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Wed, 09 Oct 2019

'One cannot live outside of relationship, and yet in all forms of it there is conflict. Why is this so?'

Krishnamurti talks for almost 29 minutes on this subject here.

Perhaps we could talk about what he says.

Topic: Meetups in Brussels Sun, 22 Sep 2019

jamie f wrote: I think it is an intriguing possibility.

I sometimes remain silent in the face of chaos but I'm not sure how effective it is. I have an acquaintance who has some mental health issues. He's not a friend but friends of mine know him. He picks fights with people for no reason. He seems to take offence at the most innocuous comment. Sometimes his friends will say something to him which I think is good as he may not realise that he is being unreasonable but as I don't know him too well I tend to remain silent. Perhaps a kind word is all that I can contribute to this man but usually I just remain silent when he starts arguing and insulting others for no apparent reason. Jamie, were you suggesting silence could do much more than this in the face of chaos?

Topic: Meetups in Brussels Thu, 19 Sep 2019

jamie f wrote: Isn't that confrontational? Can nothing be done silently about a chaotic world?

Anybody can point out that a particular post is offensive, rude or aggressive. It's important not to attack the poster personally - just because he is offensive one day doesn't mean he is always offensive. I don't know if anything can be done silently about a chaotic world. What is your opinion Jamie?

Topic: Meetups in Brussels Thu, 19 Sep 2019

jamie f wrote: Reading Krishnamurti I get a sense that he disliked people hiding behind a thin veneer of respectability whilst expecting others to do their dirty work. "You are part of all this." he would say. So let's get your hands dirty. Let's make you forum moderator for the day and ask you if you are going to ban One Self or not? And if not, then why not?

Hello Jamie. Well, I wouldn't consider the work of a moderator on an online forum as "dirty work", but I do agree that "you are part of all this". If this forum has indeed "descended into chaos" then you are responsible for that. If someone crosses a red line then call it out and challenge the poster rather than remain silent. Thanks for the offer of the post of moderator for a day but you can't decide on that. A skillful moderator can only refer a poster who is causing problems to the guidelines, give fair warning and if necessary impose a ban. I don't know about people "hiding behind a thin veneer of respectability". It doesn't sound very dignified. Are you respectable? Do you respect yourself? These are worthwhile questions to ask I would say.

Topic: Meetups in Brussels Wed, 18 Sep 2019

Dan McDermott wrote: As I'm seeing it, the most insidious 'authority' is oneself when I say "I know" in regards to the 'truth'...what I 'know' is the past and the past is not the 'truth'. The truth is , must, always be the immediate present, mustn't it?

That's a very good point.

Dan McDermott wrote: Regarding the other forms of 'authorities' like the traffic controller, forum moderator, etc, maybe a more accurate way to see them would be as 'flow facilitators'? They are tasked with trying to keep things from 'bumping' into one another?

Yes, that would seem a sensible way of putting it.

Topic: Meetups in Brussels Wed, 18 Sep 2019

Dan McDermott wrote: The 'authority' that K. was speaking about was the one that said "this is the method to be free of the known". Do this, read this, listen to this, follow what I say, etc. and that will 'set you free'... He wasn't speaking about the 'authority' of the air traffic controller or the traffic cop or a forum moderator, was he?

Hi Dan. I don't think that K would advocate rebelling against Dev or Clive, would he? :)

Topic: Meetups in Brussels Wed, 18 Sep 2019

jamie f wrote: I think they are exactly the same thing and I think the rejection of both is exactly the same thing. It is the only revolution - a complete and utter rejection of any authority.

I don't understand you here. Are you saying it's important to reject the authority of a moderator on an online forum? That makes no sense to me. When you join a forum there are usually a set of guidelines which you agree to respect.

Topic: Meetups in Brussels Wed, 18 Sep 2019

jamie f wrote: Throughout his life, Krishnamurti asserts that the rejection of all authority - religious, spiritual and moral - frees the mind and awakens intelligence but the facts do not bear this out. The facts suggest that without the authority of a moderator, this forum descends into chaos. The facts are laid out in front of us and are not an idea.

Hi Jamie. I think the rejection of religious, spiritual and moral authority is a very different thing to the authority of a moderator on an online forum. We don't need Krishnamurti to advise us on how to run online forums as this is surely a matter of common sense. This forum doesn't appear to have an active moderator at the moment and sometimes, or perhaps frequently, the guidelines are not observed. Does this mean it has descended into chaos? No, I wouldn't say that. I have read your post carefully and responded to the points you made. You can respond to me and we can debate this point and others are free to join in. Your post opens up the wider question of the rejection of authority which we could go into.

We often have interesting discussions on this forum despite the guideline violations. If discussions get side-tracked by posts which distract because of their tone or content we can still keep focused on the point which is being talked about. Surely we can at least contribute to establishing order in a chaotic forum or world.

Topic: Meetups in Brussels Mon, 16 Sep 2019

Jack Pine wrote: Is agreement the important thing or is understanding? Who cares if we agree or don't agree?

Well, I must agree with you about agreeing, Jack. Of course, the important thing is that there is an opportunity for understanding and learning here. It seems that learning and understanding require some degree of openness which is, to some degree, in contradiction with the accumulation of knowledge. Is some kind of emptying of previous knowledge necessary in order to come into contact with something new?

Topic: Meetups in Brussels Fri, 06 Sep 2019

Jack Pine wrote: Are there mountains by where you live in Spain?

Hi Jack. I manage to get up to the Pyrenees (mountain range in the north of Spain) fairly frequently and walk more regularly in a remote, hilly area closer to where I live. I always feel good both during and after walking in the mountains and being in contact with nature. I discovered the joy of walking in the country before I came across Krishnamurti but his descriptions of nature in "The Second Penguin Krishnamurti Reader" had a strong impact on me.

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