Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Sun, 31 May 2020

idiot ? wrote: Is it something else? And do we measure its quality by duration, by time?

In case you haven't noticed, K expresses thoughts. This means that while he may have lived a great deal with a silent mind, thought also gets reintegrated, thought rides silence, even while underneath the ground of silence is, eternally outside of time.

Well, it appears that in terms of consciousness and awareness, something very unusual was going on with Krishnamurti. Of course he expressed thoughts but it did seem that he was able to use thought functionally while observing with a silent mind a lot of the time. Is that speculation? I suppose it is but I think it is also quite likely given what we know about K and his life.

I don't know about quality and duration of time. All I can say is that many of us here are aware of the importance of observation with a silent mind. Perhaps some of us here do indeed have extensive experience of this while for others perhaps we only have fleeting moments. In my experience, it is easy to simply forget about the importance of the silent mind when I go about my daily life. It is easy to become lost in thought before awareness comes back and we return to the present moment.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Wed, 27 May 2020

idiot ? wrote: But I think most everyone has had a moment where they see a bird lift off from a tree and a moment later realize that they were gone, that there was no sense of self, only the bird, tree, and sky. But in that moment of realization afterwards, there is again a self, and there is again being outside of experience, unlike the moment before.

Yes, I think what you say is very true. But Krishnamurti seems to point to something else - a silent mind which is not contaminated by thought and which truly "experiences" perhaps most of the time in everyday life.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Tue, 26 May 2020

idiot ? wrote: Right, but K does call it a "wrong question" in the quote.

Yes, I realised this.

idiot ? wrote: I even think you can question K's answer if you want to. You may say that there is in fact a "who" or a "what" even though K says there is not.

The only problem here is that I don't see how we could possibly know this.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Tue, 26 May 2020

idiot ? wrote: Yes. It is perfectly natural to ask, as did Jamie/Ebeneezer Codpiece/Social Distance/Halkidiki Olive, "Who" or "What" is aware when there is no me, when there is only pure experiencing?

Oh yes, I didn't mean to imply that Jamie Olive / Ebeneezer Distance / Halkidiki Codpiece etc. was asking a "wrong question". I personally don't like this term and think almost any question is valid.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Tue, 26 May 2020

idiot ? wrote: (quoting Krishnamurti)

Krishnamurti, The First and Last Freedom, Questions and Answers: On Awareness:

At the moment of experience, there is neither the observer nor the observed: there is only the experiencing. Most of us are not experiencing. We are always outside the state of experiencing and therefore we ask this question as to who is the observer, who is it that is aware? Surely such a question is a wrong question, is it not? The moment there is experiencing, there is neither the person who is aware nor the object of which he is aware. There is neither the observer nor the observed but only a state of experiencing.

I think this is a most pertinent quote. "Most of us are not experiencing". That seems to be very true. "We are always outside the state of experiencing and therefore we ask this question as to who is the observer, who is it that is aware?". This seems to say it all. As far as I can see, experimenting with observing with a silent mind is the great challenge we all face every day.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Sat, 23 May 2020

Ebeneezer Codpiece wrote: What is 'awareness'? Do you ever wonder about it? I've been wondering about it a lot recently. On the one hand the observer is the observed but on the other hand awareness is not conflict. A chap could get confused. When you're watching something, whether it's your own conflicting thoughts or a bumblebee in the garden collecting nectar from a flower, do you ever wonder who is watching?

On reflection, I would say that in general, I haven't really ever put much energy into discovering who is watching. I'm not sure why. For me, just the observing is a big enough challenge. When you watch a bumblebee or any other living thing in the natural world in silence, it's interesting to see how close you can get to animals that would normally move away. It's almost as though they can sense there is no danger and feel relaxed about having a human being so close.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Fri, 22 May 2020

Ebeneezer Codpiece wrote: Now' is all we have. Yesterday is a memory and tomorrow is a projection. 'Now' is the only non-conceptual reality we have. Apart from when I stub my big toe - the one with the ingrowing toenail. That's a pretty convincing non-conceptual reality I can tell you.

Eb, it would take a complete fruit cake to deny that you stubbed your toe if indeed you did this. The problem is, I think, when experiences we've had in the past get in the way of us directly experiencing the present moment. I mean, if you go around thinking, "I'm a jynxed toe stubber" or "Why am I always so unlucky" or "Why did I stub my toe?" then these thoughts will distract you and your awareness of the present moment will be diminished.

Ebeneezer Codpiece wrote: So who is watching the bumblebee?

Well, my understanding is that our thoughts are the ego or "me". If I am observing the bumblebee with a silent mind there is no "me" at all, only the direct perception of said bee. But this is something we obviously need to experiment with ourselves.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Thu, 21 May 2020

Ebeneezer Codpiece wrote: I wouldn't disagree. But conflict hasn't ended, has it? It may be pushed out of focus for a while while you check out what is going on around you, but conflict will be there again tomorrow and tomorrow will be a repeat of today where conflict and awareness move back and forth with each other and the day after that will be a repeat of tomorrow and the day after that and the day after that and so on and so on.

I think all we have to work with is "the now". If we are fully aware in the present moment then that will change something.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Thu, 21 May 2020

Ebeneezer Codpiece wrote: we spend a great deal of time trying to sort out the chaos. But do we actually ever sort out the chaos? Or does it perpetuate? Because if it perpetuates, then it may well be the former and not the latter bullet point.

Hi Eb. As I see it, it's like this. My mind is racing all over the place and I am oblivious to what is going on around me. I become aware of the fact that my mind is racing all over the place. Immediately there is a change. The mind becomes quiet and I become aware of what is going on around me. As far as I can see, this is not a theory but someting that is observable at almost any time of the day as our minds are generally always busy and full of thought to some degree.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Wed, 20 May 2020

idiot ? wrote: To me, this is an amazing statement. We talk about being aware but it is quite an insight that conflict prevents awareness. Conflict within, when the mind is divided against itself or conflict with the outer. If there is some kind of conflict, which is division, which is the nature of thought, then there is some kind of distraction from what is. To be in conflict, is to be unaware.

In my experience, conflict generates a great deal of mental activity. This involves an increase in the normal amount of thought and often a certain amount of "going round in circles" trying to figure out how to resolve the conflict.

Stress and confict surely have a negative impact on awareness. You can't really observe what is going on around you if you're preoccupied with trying to resolve a conflict which you're involved in. You can't look outwards if you're so busy with an inner struggle. This is my experience.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Sun, 17 May 2020

Ebeneezer Codpiece wrote: By coincidence I came across this video today whilst looking for something else.

Thanks for posting this Eb. This interview was the very first time I saw or heard Krishnamurti when it was first broadcast on BBC2 many moons ago. I was amazed by what I heard and listening to it again now I can see what a good job Bernard Levin did here.

Topic: Are we exerting all our energy to meet the current crisis? Sun, 17 May 2020

idiot ? wrote: Realizing that the old is memory and the new is now does not change or deny the fact that "my child spits on me, runs away from home, roams the streets with a gun." But it allows me to see the child freshly.

I see things very much the same and would say that "freshness" is absolutely key to K's teachings. It seems clear that we do not, in general, have a sense of freshness or newness in our lives. Whether it's walking past the same tree we see every day and never really noticing what it looks like or reading a message here and passing it through our filter of what we understand the teachings to be, we are stuck in the past. I would say that this is observable every day. In the example of the child displaying worrying behaviour above, seeing the situation with freshness, as if from the outside, may be very helpful.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Mon, 04 May 2020

Ebeneezer Codpiece wrote: I know exactly what you mean. But one thing I am absolutely certain of is that the key lies not within the pages of a book but in the mind itself.

Hi Eb, of course I agree with you. Reading the same thing over and over again can be dulling. I do think the "freshness" element is key. Sometimes I might be listening to a Krishnamurti video and feel that sense of freshhness and that is very communicative. But what is really important is feeling that freshness in everyday life. The morning is new and alive every day but our thoughts don't allow us to feel it most of the time. There may indeed come a point where it's healthy to disengage from reading and just try living. Does reading Krishnamurti or watching him speak on video help with awareness in everyday life? I suppose the answer is different for different people here.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Sat, 02 May 2020

Ebeneezer Codpiece wrote: The book thing is no big deal. It's just that you can either have words or the real thing and I think that you can learn a lot from life itself.

Hi Eb, I really did laugh at your new name! Interesting about the dreams. I found this at the beginning of lockdown but less so now.

I don't think anyone would argue that you can learn a lot from life itself but it seems that we often don't learn and get into patterns of behaviour which have a dulling effect on us. Not many of us have a constant freshness in the way we approach life, wouldn't you agree? Sometimes I read Krishnamurti and find my mind sharper afterwards and my observation clearer.

Topic: On Relationships and Conflict Fri, 01 May 2020

Hello Jamie, nice to see you back here. I see you're now known as **. It doesn't really roll off the tongue very easily so I'll continue to call you Jamie unless you feel I am being grossly offensive.

I watched the video you posted above and thought it was very good. I haven't thrown out my Krishnamurti books yet but as I only have two or three it wouldn't involve a huge amount of effort. However, I don't feel the need to do this.

Here in Spain, we are in day 47 of one of Europe's strictest lockdowns but we will be allowed out tomorrow to walk and do exercise so we are feeling happy about that. This period has allowed me to discover interesting new voices like Gabor Maté. He says that we are probably all feeling anger, fear, sadness etc. just now and that if we feel this way we should just stay with the feeling and allow it to flow and observe it. Krishnamurti would not have disagreed with this I reckon. It seems like very good advice to me.

Topic: To read someone's writing or comment you become him or her. Thu, 16 Apr 2020

idiot ? wrote: I wish everyone good health. In these troubled times it is more important than ever to eat well, exercise, and be kind to each other.

Great post showing positivity and solidarity. However, the most impressive part of your message was the brief history of the forum and how you remain seemingly untouched by all the less positive posts that have been made over the years. It's so easy to become cynical and jaded. Staying free of the past and not becoming marked by previous experience was surely a central part of K's teachings.

Topic: To read someone's writing or comment you become him or her. Tue, 14 Apr 2020

Jack Pine wrote:

I am not a young man this life style has given me a resting heart beat of around 45 per minute.

That is amazing Jack! A resting heart beat of 45 per minute would normally be associated with an athlete! I can see your mind is also in very good shape!

Topic: To read someone's writing or comment you become him or her. Tue, 14 Apr 2020

Jack Pine wrote: I walk everyday in those mountains without seeing hardly anyone. The peace is undescribable with just the breeze brushing through the pine, spruce, cedar, fir and aspen trees is mostly the only sound one hears.

You are a fortunate man Jack. This sounds like an ideal place to explore silence.

Topic: To read someone's writing or comment you become him or her. Tue, 14 Apr 2020

idiot ? wrote: Me, too. And even more so right now with coronavirus and the economic repercussions and the tremendous fear. Many of us are spending much more time where we live, either by ourselves, or with loved ones. That prolonged proximity can exacerbate tensions so it is all the more important to pay attention, to watch yourself in relationship.

Yes, this is very true. Perhaps there is a heightened sense of "what is" at the moment as we have less in the way of distractions with sport and cultural activities cancelled in many countries. Perhaps we are faced with who we are and what we have around us much more than usual. What do you say idiot??

Topic: To read someone's writing or comment you become him or her. Tue, 14 Apr 2020

Jack Pine wrote: Dev if you read this I suggest to get this forum going you delete the accounts of both Jack Pine and One Self. Otherwise you may just as well close it down completely because nothing is going to change here.

Hello Jack. You know, in a forum like this one I think it's important to be clear that there is going to be a very wide variety of posts ranging from brilliant insight to complete nonsense. You can usually tell early on in a message if you think it's worth continuing to read or not. Surely it's a good idea to focus only on messages that have something to say to you or that you connect with. If you read all the messages and become angry with ones you disagree with, then I do think that this is a waste of time and energy. We can't control who posts here, the content of their posts or how much they post. To delete an accounts seems like a waste of time as the same poster can come back under a different name. What we can control is which messages we engage with and which ones we don't.

Topic: To read someone's writing or comment you become him or her. Mon, 13 Apr 2020

Clive Elwell wrote: Are we not here to question our conclusions? And it may be that others can help us to question our conclusions, or to gently point out that we are operating from a conclusion. But if this is done aggressively, rudely, one is not likely to be listened to.

Hello Clive, nice to see you here. I think you've raised a very important point. There needs to be a certain degree of challenge as challenge can help us discover. We probably all agree that rudeness and aggessiveness can lead to a breakdown in communication and is better avoided if at all possible. Rudeness can be subjective though. There is also condescention and arrogance that we can perhaps all transmit from time to time and which can cause offence. We are all here because K's teaching have great importance for us. We can surely find a way of communicating that allows us to explore the teachings in an acceptable manner. What do the rest of you think about this?

Topic: To read someone's writing or comment you become him or her. Mon, 13 Apr 2020

idiot ? wrote: The negative of intellectualism is that it can be abstract and removed from the practical and the everyday. It can be so bound up in itself that it loses what it is talking about. Many things K talked about are very ordinary, like fear, greed, jealousy. Since we all more or less have these, we are all experts in them. Or so we think, anyway.

I think the above is a good starting point. For example, observing with a silent mind seems very ordinary and simple. I think it's very easy to end up talking about it rather than actually doing it. The fact that Krishnamurti continually pointed out how a set method or practice dulled the mind rather than opened it leaves us with the problem of how we go about observing with a quiet mind. Is this something we do occasionally, a lot or never?

Topic: To read someone's writing or comment you become him or her. Sun, 12 Apr 2020

Jack Pine wrote: Hi Sean. I've thought about you over the last few weeks since we last conversed. I was hoping all was well with you.

All well at the moment here Jack and I hope things are good with you too. I envy you being able to walk in the spring weather in the mountains - I am certainly missing that at the moment.

Topic: To read someone's writing or comment you become him or her. Sun, 12 Apr 2020

idiot ? wrote: So being overly wrapped up in the brain is distance from the actual.

Yes, this is really what I'm referring to. If Krishnamurti's teaching are to have any meaning at all, surely they should have some kind of effect on our lives. Does reading or listening to K speak actually help us to look and observe? I mean, we've all read what Krishnamurti says about attachment. I know that it is really, really difficult not to be attached to the people who are closest to us but perhaps listening to or reading Krishnamurti opens some kind of door for us to understand our attachment. That practical application is key to me. Of course, people are free to discuss what they want to.

Topic: To read someone's writing or comment you become him or her. Sun, 12 Apr 2020

Jack Pine wrote: is it enquiry, is it dialogue to think something to death? To intellectualize a subject to death with opinions and conclusions? Are we aware of the limits of thought when we do the above?

Well, I copletely agree with you here Jack. I don't want to sound critical of anybody but I don't really get the deep analysis and intellectualising of K's work and I don't connect with it. I don't think it's constructive at all to comment on one forum against the other. There's only a handful of us who participte on both forums and I suppose we all get something out of them in one way or another.

Strange days as we enter our fifth week of lockdown in Spain. Maybe an opportunity to explore things in a new and different way.

Topic: Krishnamurti jokes, humor, and levity Tue, 24 Mar 2020

Becoming aware of your toes would be a great feat!

Topic: Again watching the movie of K, a Buddhist scholar, and others Thu, 19 Mar 2020

I'm a bit slow watching this but I've got up to one hour on the video. It's good to see a dialogue where people can stop K and ask for clarification. Mary Zimbalist and Dr Parchure obviously knew K very well and are not afraid to ask questions that perhaps others wouldn't ask.

K seems frustrated at points that the people listening don't really grasp what he is saying about the stream of common consciousness. He even tells Dr Parchure that he's not really listening. Maybe it's just not possible to fully get this if you're still in the stream.

Topic: Again watching the movie of K, a Buddhist scholar, and others Tue, 10 Mar 2020

I've reached the part of the video where K is talking about the stream of common human consciousness. He is very, very clear in his description of this stream but I don't think any of the people there really get this. Do any of us really get this? It's a very important point that we all share the common traits of fear, loneliness, despair etc but do we never, ever step out of this stream? Are we always limited by the whole content of this common consciousness that we share?

Topic: tree Sat, 29 Feb 2020

idiot ? wrote: When I looked out my window, I saw the most beautiful beech tree. It was large and healthy, well over 100 years old. I often would look out the window and see its gently swaying branches.

Today they are here and are completely cutting it down and removing it. There is evil in this world.

I think this incident underlines our complete lack of connection with nature. I suppose many Native American people had a completely different relationship to nature than most of us who live in modern societies. Many native Americans lived very close to and in harmony with nature and understood that when we hurt nature we are hurting ourselves. Perhaps we understand this intelectually but as we are so removed from nature that it's difficult to really feel the tragedy of this beautiful beech tree being cut down. Idiot?, how did the other people in your neighbourhood (if there are any) feel about this? Perhaps there was no warning given and so no opportunity to try to stop this.

Topic: tree Fri, 21 Feb 2020

Sorry to hear about the tree - life's a beech sometimes.

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