Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Topic: Choiceless self-awareness Sun, 28 Jan 2018

Dan McDermott wrote: Intelligence comes into being when the brain discovers its fallibility, when it discovers what it is capable of and what it is not capable of.

So what prevents the brain from seeing its own fallibility? Is it culture? Is it genetics? Is it something else?

Topic: Choiceless self-awareness Sat, 27 Jan 2018

Rich Nolet wrote: And how are we gona do that, if I may ask ? How will this integration happen and by who ? Is really this is the challenge of humanity ?

Is the brain biologically flawed? Clearly some of us are born with pretty severe brain defects, aren't we all more-or-less flawed in some way?

Is it the interaction between biology and culture which is the problem? Take the same brain and give it two different environments, in one it flourishes, and in the other it becomes self-obsessed and destructive. Is that the answer? And who are we to judge? Some people would argue a bit of self-obsession is necessary and a good thing.

Or the answer lies outside of genetics and environment? And if the answer lies beyond us somehow, why doesn't this intelligence just get on with it and act?

Topic: Being what one is Tue, 12 Dec 2017

richard head wrote: I am wondering then, if it is something as simple as a recurring thought, how humanity collectively cannot see the stupidity in thinking the same thought(s) over and over and expecting a different result?

We live in a society where one man trades off another man's suffering for their own pleasure. Pleasure is the drug, and there's a lot of peer pressure.

Topic: Being what one is Sat, 04 Nov 2017

richard head wrote: Issues seem to arise when we expand that capacity to compare subjectively, no?

When we think that there is more to "what should be" than the expression of desire to fulfill an image, then we confuse the two.

Topic: Being what one is Sat, 04 Nov 2017

Tom Paine wrote: What about the concepts of my country...my religion...my house or car...my beloved possessions(leaving aside that we all need basic shelter and perhaps a car to get to the supermarket and work)....as well as 'me'...'you'...good/bad...right/wrong? Are these somehow related to our 'basic drives'?

I would say so Tom. My tribe, my family, or with animals, my pack, my pride, my colony. Thought can warp and exaggerate these basic instincts, but it can also help to explore their inappropriateness.

Topic: Being what one is Mon, 30 Oct 2017

Tom Paine wrote: A fact? Hmmm...that would be a subjective judgement as I see it,, not a fact. One race may be taller or physically stronger, but superior? Why is taller or stronger superior to shorter or weaker?

Well one can compare things objectively. This species has better eyesight than that one. This one has a better verbal capacity. It is better not to have cancer than to have it. This phone has a better camera than that one.

As I see it, it is the the binding of concepts, factual or non-factual, to basic drives that is the critical factor.

Topic: Being what one is Sun, 29 Oct 2017

richard head wrote: The problems start with the reliance on the authority of our image making capability.

Pleasure is what keeps that going, but that is how the mind works. And then you point out that this is a trap, and that is displeasing to me, and then I form images of freedom and so on that do please me.

This is how we have evolved. It's a big experiment, and maybe someday another species will come along with a brain structured so that basic drives don't bind with memory in the same way. I'd guess that nature will figure it out somehow, with or without us.

But, you seem to be indicating that the human mind already has the capability to restructure itself, and that we are not trapped in this by our biology. I don't know.

Topic: Being what one is Sun, 29 Oct 2017

Tom Paine wrote: But when I have an image of the Jews or the Blacks and consider one superior and another inferior, well, you know how that turns out right?

It's a fact that races and species are inferior/superior in some ways. Add in a lack of empathy and the pleasure we get from non-facts about ourselves and others, and you have a problem.

My point was about pleasure/emotion binding to images, and the consequences of that. This is not restricted to relationships and groups. It is how the human brain has evolved and it has a certain energy to it. This image pleases me and I will work towards it. And yes if I have to sacrifice lives to get there, maybe that is a price worth paying. That is how things are no? That is how the human brain works? Even if I am a scientist am I not driven by pleasure, how ever 'healthy' that pleasure might be?

Topic: Being what one is Wed, 25 Oct 2017

richard head wrote: Which I think is the critical factor.

So humans get emotionally attached to images. I would guess cats do so too, but in a much more limited, 'healthy', fashion. But what is the problem here? It's a way of going about things with pros and cons. As long as the image is beneficial on a large scale (e.g. I want to find a cure for cancer), is this a problem?

Topic: Being what one is Sun, 22 Oct 2017

richard head wrote: Simple observation. Relationship. The becoming psychological entity is quite obvious.

The cat has desires and suffers. Is it so different? Maybe it just lacks imagination.

I read somewhere that dolphins have names for each other, and might even gossip about other dolphins when they are away.

Topic: Being what one is Sat, 21 Oct 2017

richard head wrote: But I was trying to come from a different angle. For instance, my cat isn't becoming something. She is being what she is. So I can see that a mammal can exist without constant illusion.

How do you know what your cat dreams of? Or what illusions it may be caught in?

Topic: Just a word of thanks... Sat, 19 Aug 2017

Huguette . wrote: I agree, there is order in disorder as well. If there were no order in disease, for example, no treatment could be found, could it? In spite of black holes and other such things which I don’t understand, if there were no order in space and the universe, there could be no life at all, it seems to me. The planets would long ago have smashed into each other.

Maybe those planets would never have formed in the first place. Maybe there are many kinds of universes out there with different rules/order, and only some are able to generate entities that are able to form concepts such as order. In any case, these conversations always touch on these issues: can you understand disorder without understanding order? don't they both go together? aren't these concepts always subjective?

We are limited beings, going through life with this limited understanding of ourselves, and others, and yet here we are, we still have to act, and deal with the problems our species faces. Even if I am not enlightened, I know abusing someone because of the colour of their skin, is wrong. I don't understand this notion that we can only contribute to disorder, because we are not enlightened enough yet. It's like saying, I don't completely understand how cancers work, so I better do nothing at all.

Topic: Just a word of thanks... Sun, 13 Aug 2017

Huguette . wrote: As for dealing with psychopaths, I think what Tom says (#91) makes sense, unless it's someone close to you, a son, daughter, a friend, a parent - then to be as rational, as non-judgmental, as realistic as possible - meaning to be fully attentive - do the best according to one's understanding. How do you deal with it?

I try to keep my distance also, as I have learnt, from experience, that there is no way to give someone else empathy or sensitivity or compassion. A psychopath will take and take from an empath, until there is nothing left to take, or the psychopath gets bored and finds another target. The psychopath has a massive advantage other the empath, in being able to achieve his/her goals: he/she does not care, and will go to shocking lengths, to psychologically manipulate and attack. The empath, will always lose in this "game" of goals and power. What an empath, can do that a psychopath cannot, is form relatively healthy relationships with other empaths.

Topic: Just a word of thanks... Sun, 13 Aug 2017

Huguette . wrote: I can't decide to achieve inner order. I am seeing my own disorder, that's all I can do, isn't it? Out of seeing my own disorder, there comes some degree of order in my own thinking and action, as I see it... but maybe not.

Well, just because someone's brain is not wired up to experience empathy, doesn't necessarily mean there is no order to their thinking. But there's more to it than just a lack of empathy.

Also what does disorder mean anyway? Is there an objective definition? The word means something out sequence, something out of place, right? Or is it always subjective? When a doctor sees a cancer, he sees disorder right? And he studies it, and gives treatment, and maybe if the patient is lucky there is relatively less disorder.

Topic: Just a word of thanks... Sat, 12 Aug 2017

Huguette . wrote: Anything that I decide in the circumstances must come out of my own disorder, no? If there IS such a thing as inner order, then can I - out of my disordered, conflicted, contradictory state - decide how to sanely deal with psychopaths?

Well, how will you decide to achieve inner order (or anything) from a state of disorder? How do you deal with psychopaths/narcissists in your life? How do you deal with disease/illness?

Topic: Just a word of thanks... Sat, 12 Aug 2017

Patricia Hemingway wrote:

dave h wrote:

There is a genetic component to narcissism.

So they say. They could be wrong. Question everything! :)

Is self built into DNA?

Is self the greatest invention of self?

Is a narcissist just an ordinary unaware human being who is very 'good' at that invention? And very easily deluded into completely believing in it? :)

Have a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad

See Biological and Environmental.

I am not trying to pick a hole in anyone's argument here. Also, this is just social statistics, not therapeutic psychology, so it's not at odds with anything K has said, as far as I can tell.

To me, the main challenge we face as a species is how to respond to such people, and their how they interact with all of us, either directly, or by obtaining positions of power in business or politics. Sure, we can observe these traits in ourselves, and perhaps gain some self-awareness, but I can't see it having any effect on e.g. psychopaths what so-ever. They have no empathy, no shame - they just don't care. You can put your house in order, but this will go on and on.

So what to do?

Topic: Just a word of thanks... Sun, 06 Aug 2017

Patricia Hemingway wrote: Trump is the epitome of the 'self'. He is the total danger that K consistently pointed out which makes up the 'self'. Which we all are unless it is understood.

There is a genetic component to narcissism. What if Trump was just born that way? Is self built into DNA?

Topic: "Thought and Perception" Thu, 13 Apr 2017

randall merryman wrote: Arguing??

Well things are getting pretty heated here :) I do suggest a cooling off period before the forum is permanently damaged

Topic: "Thought and Perception" Wed, 12 Apr 2017

randall merryman wrote: If your sentence lacks the word "think", I will just suggest that Bohm was doing the same thing as what goes on at Kinfonet and elsewhere. You know, trying to fit the words into coherent structure to find some kind of logical meaning in what Krishnamurti talks about.

I see. K didn't seem to mind?

Topic: "Thought and Perception" Wed, 12 Apr 2017

randall merryman wrote: Yes yes quite, it is so much easier to secure comfort/security in a pleasant atmosphere. All that annoying challenging and pointing to the reality of what folks are actually engaged in can be a bit discomforting. We can't have any of that, then can we?

Sorry Jack, couldn't resist. I'll leave your thread now, carry on.

Randy, do you really we are doing something completely different to what K/Bohm were doing when discussing the same things?

Topic: "Thought and Perception" Sun, 09 Apr 2017

Jack Pine wrote: If they do come up with something are you going to accept their answer as conclusive? Why not watch our own thought and see why and how it seeks security?

I agree, why not watch our own thought. But thought and the process of seeking security are the same thing no? Or are we saying "seeking security" is only one part of thought?

Topic: "Thought and Perception" Sun, 09 Apr 2017

So why does thought seek security? Why does it wish to be permanent?

I'm not sure there is a "why" psychologically speaking.

I mean technically speaking we will maybe get answers to "why" by studying the brain/neurones, and maybe come to understand the physical mechanisms by which thought becomes trapped in this state. I think scientists are already considering how the brain creates this illusion of a self that lasts in time.

But psychologically speaking are we not just introducing time by asking "why"? I'm not trying to be deliberately mystical or philosophical here, but can thought really answer this question? Why is thought seeking security? That is its nature and structure, it can't do anything else - it is its own cause.

Topic: Choiceless perception Fri, 07 Apr 2017

randall merryman wrote: This is your response to the highlighted quote?

No just an example of what I meant. About the quote I don't know that it's saying I should be this or that especially. But do you think no one else on the forum can say anything insightful? Are you saying that quote is of a completely different nature to everything that goes on here? Will you accept/reject this question?

Topic: Choiceless perception Fri, 07 Apr 2017

randall merryman wrote: Go back and read post #1, of this thread. Is this what you mean?

I think I might play a game, where I act as if I've got it all figured out, do my very best to provoke reactions, point out to others how they're doing all this unenlightened stuff all the time, kind of stay within the forum guidelines, you know just enough, and then blame everyone if they find it annoying, and also do it a hell of a lot. How long do you think it would take for me to get banned? I figure I could last quite a while, if I play the game well enough.

Topic: Choiceless perception Thu, 06 Apr 2017

Jack Pine wrote: I think the only honest objection for one to make on here is if someone is consistently preventing conversations, dialogues, from happening. We had that problem recently and hopefully it has been remedied.

Yes, that definitely prevents the discussion from going somewhere.

The notion has come up, that if someone does this, somehow it's OK because it's then up to the others to ignore them. The thing is we are not idealised constructs, but actual human beings, who do get distracted and bothered by these things. That is the fact of it, and surely on a K-site, this is the place to stay with these sorts of facts. Being compared ad nauseam to some idea of how we could or should be able to react, seems to be an example of going nowhere. Is that really the purpose of the forum?

Topic: Choiceless perception Wed, 05 Apr 2017

randall merryman wrote: Apparently not. In fact, there seems to be a consensus that what I post, is not.

Some "nowheres" are better than others.

Topic: Choiceless perception Sat, 25 Mar 2017

Jack Pine wrote: By the way. Has anyone read Dev's latest post on the Forum Guidelines and Violation Notices? Some might find it interesting.

There is a tricky balance between being politically correct all the time, and never disagreeing with someone else, being afraid to challenge another person's thinking.

But how far can one go with being challenging?

How about playing the sounds of bombs to someone with PTSD because of their involvement in conflict, and then saying it's your conditioning that is the problem, not my challenge? Why can't you face the facts? Why hold on to images? You are stuck with what should be etc. etc.

We are all responsible for each other, as well as ourselves. Not in the sense that it's my fault if someone else believes in X/Y/Z, but in the sense that we are all breakable, limited and human.

Topic: Craving Mon, 06 Mar 2017

Jean Gatti wrote: What are we looking for ? Endless discussions ? ... or freedom from the self and its endless chattering ?

Looking for some kind of result Jean ? A method to get there ?

Topic: Craving Mon, 06 Mar 2017

Jean Gatti wrote: Would you expect self to surrender without suffering ?

Expecting some kind of result ?

The story of the camel and the rich man ... and the needle hole ...

Nice image :-)

Topic: Craving Mon, 06 Mar 2017

Jean Gatti wrote: Would you like a forum where everyone listens to your ideas and opinions without bringing any contradiction ?

Would you like a forum where everyone tells you their ideas and opinions, constantly contradicting themselves ?

Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 1165 in total