Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Topic: Many meanings of "awareness" Wed, 10 Sep 2014

P. Lunatus wrote: To start, what if, as long as it is observed, there is no escape from it?

some produce magically 'observation' and others 'no movement'...no difference in two approaches...me is all the time moving towards the projected/desired goal...

Topic: Many meanings of "awareness" Wed, 10 Sep 2014

P Sylvan wrote: Whereas, in the absence of a centre, there is no movement away from the seen and therefore no escape.

this 'no movement away from seen' is the movement...the me wants to by-pass the issue of 'movement' (it can not do anything without moving) by projecting 'no movement'...

Topic: Many meanings of "awareness" Wed, 10 Sep 2014

P. Lunatus wrote: There is also the use of the word "awareness" to mean that one is aware of being in a way that involves a real-time cognizance of sensory input.

Is there a third meaning for the word? One that involves a more comprehensive understanding?

sensory data cognizance evokes reactions based on past memories accumulated by me and bias arises towards sensory data...this obviously limits understanding of inputs...me does not permit understanding/awareness to go deeper beyond this 'stimulus-reaction-stimulus' pattern of functioning of the mind...

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Mon, 13 Jan 2014

The mind is essentially limited and whatever it creates is of itself. Krishnamurti Quote of the Day | Jan 13, 2014

the human mind is limited and to make itself complete/total/whole it is always running after more of knowledge, experiences, accumulations, success, name, fame, power and so on, but will it be ever able to achieve its projected goals/state?

the mind is structured and functions in a manner that ensures that it will never be able to end its limited nature. it wants more at personal level. it has many desires on its list that will make it as 'we/group' some special status in the eyes of society and this list keeps on adding to itself. the human mind wants to tackle war, violence, hunger and other factors responsible for human suffering, but its efforts will remain limited because it too has a self that is active at personal and social level.

is the mind acquainted with the actuality of its limitation at all level of its existence?

has it been to its extreme boundary and stayed there completely immobile with no intention or desire at all to further extend this boundary in the name of inquiring /dicovering/finding the limitless?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Mon, 13 Jan 2014

pavani rao wrote: Well may be it's not humanly possible for one to come to the state K is describing in that quote .... But at least when one remains with the realization of one's mediocrity and remain in an inquiring state of mind ... There may be a possibility of an awakening of some thing else perhaps ....

what is it one is inquiring into after the realization that one is living a mediocre life in all dimensions and relationships?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Mon, 13 Jan 2014

Peter Kesting wrote: I suggest that time-space is actually in something else that is beyond anything that can be found in the "geometry" (science) of the four dimensional.

what is the need/compulsion for making such a suggestion?

on what basis are you making this suggestion?

is "suggestion" the right word for what you are trying to say?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Mon, 13 Jan 2014

Dan McDermott wrote: 'Attachment' seems to be the source of so much of our confusion and division.

we have lost the wisdom to interact with life simply and directly to find joy, happiness, peace, satisfaction and fulfilment while doing small, small things. if the importance of this factor is not understood and remedied, then all our understanding about attachment/conflict/divisions that so obviously destroy the joy of living together will not be of any help.

the roots of attachment are very wide spread in our psyche, but do they go so deep as to make receiving/welcoming life an impossibility?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Mon, 13 Jan 2014

Tom Paine wrote: However, with most emotions its the threat to our 'psychological security' that is the trigger of the emotion....not a real threat to our physical security. And immediately a remedy for this 'insecurity' is sought by thought/me which won't tolerate any threat to it's security and psychological attachments.

three observations come to mind with regards to this issue of fear/insecurity:

the threat to the psychological security is the creation of thought when the mind is doing introspection or is occupied inwardly in solving the issue causing the emotional disturbance, but there is no actual threat present in the immediate environment. this state of mind is responsible for wasting energy and harming the health.

the thought is creating psychological insecurity as there is threat present in the environment, but it is not yet visible/apparent. this state of mind is helpful in keeping one alert so that the action can be taken promptly when one comes face to face with the threat. (if the threat is imagined one or this kind of scenario reappears again and again without the actual emergence of threat, then also total health is harmed.)

the threat is actually present/active in the environment and producing a feeling of insecurity/fear. in this state of mind the remedial action is taken with body, mind and heart acting efficiently and in harmony resulting in integration of energy ( if the feeling of fear is too strong, then this may result in paralysis of all actions).

why has the mind lost its eagerness/wisdom to deal with fear/insecurity in last two dimensions?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Sun, 12 Jan 2014

Dan McDermott wrote: Understanding intellectually that this kind of attention is maybe what is called for in such an extreme emotional explosion caused say by the death of your child, does not mean that we can 'do' it. But in such a case what is source of the grief, and pain? It is 'attachment' isn't it? If that is 'seen' totally at the moment of this volcano of feeling erupting, could that be the light that illuminates the whole structure of 'attachment' and its futility...?

it is very difficult to see the feeling of grief erupting within, then see the thought arising as 'escapes' and then see the dead body lying in front of the eyes (all this seeing is a unity and originates from great depth of mind).

as long as the dead body of the child lying in front of the eyes is intently focussed on, the "seeing" of the disturbing pure intense feeling is impossible as thoughts as escape will certainly arise/intervene (provided the mind is not totally numb from shock).

the attention lighting/panetrating deeper layers/levels of mind is controlled by self while such is not the case when it rises up from deeper layers/levels of mind.

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Sun, 12 Jan 2014

You may succeed in forcibly stilling the mind, but what is the outcome of such effort? Death, is it not? Krishnamurti Quote of the Day | Jan 12, 2014

concentration on some activity inwardly or outwardly is the way to forcibly still the mind. one can stop the movement of thought by desiring to stay silent dulling the mind to such an extent that achieving the desired result becomes possible.

in what sense is this "stilling" death? what dies?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Sun, 12 Jan 2014

Tom Paine wrote: I don't know what you're trying to say with that last part in bold, me speak. What does that mean... for 'feelings to arise and stay'?

one easily sees thoughts arising one after another and one can stay with the observing of them for short or long duration. why is one not able to do so with the feelings/emotions? as soon as the mind sees them arising, one or the other "escape" as thought arise to hide the feeling from observation. why?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Sun, 12 Jan 2014

Tom Paine wrote: Yes, why? Why is the intellect so persistent in taking an active role?

one may describe the issue in this manner:

one sees something interesting in one's environment...the thought process starts to evaluate that thing and also supplies necessary information about it...a line of action is decided by choosing the best option from the self's point of view...the chosen action is executed...this interaction brings changes in the environment and the whole process/pattern is repeated again and again...

is the intellectual understanding of this pattern difficult? no, it is not.

is the "seeing/understanding" of this pattern difficult? your views please.

what is the way to break/dissolve this pattern from the roots?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Sun, 12 Jan 2014

mike christani wrote: But you have to be able to be somewhat fluid to follow all these.

please elaborate.

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Sun, 12 Jan 2014

Dan McDermott wrote: We cant manufacture this intensity of grief and pain that most of us at one time or another will face, but can we remember at that moment, the importance of 'Seeing' it without moving away?

one may hope to remain alert/attentive enough in the "seeing" mode at that time of crisis/pain/suffering, but it is not likely to happen. the reason for this is simple. we do not value small "blessings" that life bring to us in many times in a day. we are incapable of looking at the nature with sensitivity, we neither work nor play with love in our heart for what we are doing. the fact is that we do not value and love our life/daily living.

it is futile to imagine that a mind always occupied/struggling with desires, accumulation, success, ambitions and other such intellectual concerns of self will be able to remain still/quiet and "see" when suffering/pain/loss and loneliness strike with full force.

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Sun, 12 Jan 2014

dave h wrote: Isn't the issue a misunderstanding of separation in general? You focus here one form only: I am only related to thought. Another misunderstanding might be: I am not related to thought. There are many kinds of false boundaries but you focus on one side of it only.

excellent observation!

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Sat, 11 Jan 2014

Tom Paine wrote: K. is referring to the truth about ourselves I assume...the truth about the division in 'me' who has created this world and its wars and violence.

the quote refers to the truth that is mandatory for solving our many problems in all fields. do you feel that understanding of the truth of the division solve our problems? OR

we understand this truth many times in many ways in different situations and yet return to the divisive ways of living time and again?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Sat, 11 Jan 2014

Tom Paine wrote: The conflict or suffering is something that resists all attempts to know about it using the 'traditional' approaches. The traditional approach/authority may be one of the reasons that the fear continues! Can this be seen/understood....that the traditional approach to the problem/conflict may be causing further division and prolonging the conflict? Do we ever abandon the traditional authority(the observer) completely? I think that's what you're asking me speak. As long as we cling to any 'knowing'...any ideas, concepts, knowledge...about the problem, then we are not completely lost....or we feel/think we're not lost...that there's a path out of the jungle/darkness.

what you say above is quite right as far as it goes, but let us try to look for a deeper reason for our inability to deal with fear, suffering etc.

thought as solution/description/analysis and other such "escapes" form the barrier that does not permit the seeing of emotions/feelings as they arise, right?

let us look at this from a different angle and approach. although the fear/suffering exist within us, yet we are not able to find/see them. why?

is it so because one doesn't know where to look (inwardly) for them (feelings)?

why have we never understood the importance/necessity of looking beyond the screen of thoughts and spend energy/time to let the attention reach the place /location where feelings exist/arise?

why hasn't all the energy spent in self knowledge/self knowing by us not made it possible where seeing of feelings as they arise and stay becomes an actuality?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Sat, 11 Jan 2014

We see that unless there is an experience of truth, none of our problems can be solved, whether sociological, religious, or personal. Krishnamurti Quote of the Day | Jan 11, 2014

what is your understanding of the "truth" mentioned here? what is it referring to? in what sense it is being used?

we all understand (at least theoretically) the reason we are not able to solve our many problems in daily life. we face fresh challenges of life with old knowledge/experiences. by not being directly attentive towards the unfoldin/flowering of challenge/issue/problem, whatever action we take to resolve them remains incomplete and biased by the inclination of self in the matter. how can the psychological problem be solved when one is not looking at/watching it attentively?

the quote says that experience of truth will act as light in the darkness. we shall leave the "experience" part out of the discussion, but the clear understanding of (what is) "truth" looks significant/important/necessary for resolving problems of daily living in all spheres of life.

any input on the questions asked at the start of the post regarding "truth" will be appreciated.

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Fri, 10 Jan 2014

When the mind is tranquil and free of its own activity and chatter, there is supreme wisdom. Krishnamurti Quote of the Day | Jan 10, 2014

mind's mental activities and chatter include thoughts, emotions and images. it is occupied with doing analysis, judgement, projections, imagination and other such mental activities.

what does it mean for the mind to be tranquil and be free of its own activities and chatter?

this freedom can not mean losing the storehouse of thoughts, emotions and images as this loss of contact with the past can not make a person supremely wise.

this freedom can not mean cessation of the arising of thoughts, emotions and images in response to the challenges of life as losing a highly specialised and practically very useful functional abilities of mind can not result in supreme wisdom.

this freedom can not be the result of making the mind dull, empty and insensitive by any means so that it is unable to or avoids wisely reacting to the challenges of life.

if the mind becomes extremely passionate about one thing, then it may not much indulge in other mental activities and chattering, but such an "imbalanced" mind neglecting other relationships of life can not be called supremely wise.

will observing/seeing/watching the activities and chattering of the mind bring tranquillity and resultant wisdom?

it is a fact that attentive observation of mental activities will slow them down and they may completely stop for some moments, but does wisdom flower in such temporary gaps? no, it doesn't.

moreover, observation with attention of the mental activities itself can become another "system" mind will follow to have that tranquillity and wisdom. if this happens, one is back into the field of activity and chattering which denies freedom.

is there any other action left that can bring that state of mind which is tranquil and free of its activity and chattering so that the supreme wisdom can be?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Fri, 10 Jan 2014

Tom Paine wrote: mike christani wrote:

Is it that here, we don't know what to do? T P : Indeed we don't.

ms : all that you have described in your post after this sentence would come in the category of "doing". you may respond to my post # 218 pasted below :

"on the contrary the mind is always occupied in doing one or the other thing at the level of thought/emotion or action which gives life to old pattern of functioning.it is very difficult for the mind (self) to actually feel completely helpless and accept the fact that it doesn't know what to do."

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Fri, 10 Jan 2014

mike christani wrote: me speak wrote:

this is the reply that comes up quite easily, but the problem has to have deeper roots as the brain finds enough energy every time to do what the self/"I" is interested in doing.is the present normal structure and physiology of the brain saving the old pattern of functioning which is controlled by self/"I" and any amount of energy/time spent in understanding/solving this issue is going to go waste as all the activity is happening within the same field/old pattern of functioning? m c : This is a good point. If we are interested in something, we have the energy. Is it that here, we don't know what to do?

on the contrary the mind is always occupied in doing one or the other thing at the level of thought/emotion or action which gives life to old pattern of functioning.it is very difficult for the mind (self) to actually feel completely helpless and accept the fact that it doesn't know what to do.

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Fri, 10 Jan 2014

Pandavi X wrote: I would ask whether there is any other type of seeing which is not conditioned. I have no evidence there is...

have you stopped inquiring because you have not found any evidence of "seeing that is not conditioned" so far?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Fri, 10 Jan 2014

Dan McDermott wrote: This reminds me of K saying something like that the "brain is going in the wrong direction and a change in direction would be a "mutation" of the brain cells". This is what we are dealing with according to him. And this conditioning of thousands of years would need an enormous energy to cause a"derailment". Arduous task indeed!

it is felt that it is more a question of integration of energy that is getting fragmented at all levels of our existence and in all relationships. the fragmentation occurs because the "self" is creating conflicting duality (like/dislike, pleasure/pain, success/failure etc.) in the field of functioning of both sensory and motor systems. it has destroyed the simpleness of body needs also under the pressure of dos and don't formulated by society. unless the fragmentation is resolved, all available energy (however great its amount may be) would fail to bring about mutation of brain cells.

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Thu, 09 Jan 2014

me speak wrote: Tom Paine wrote:

Yes, mike, it could be that all the issues(involved in conflict) are not understood... ms :or could it be that strength of entity that understands is being misjudged?

Tom: There is no such entity! Intelligence isn't an entity I don't think.

ms : it is not intelligence that is being mentioned as entity. the reference was to the entity that does not understand the issues (see the part in bold above taken from your post) involved in conflict.

is the strength of this entity misjudged?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Thu, 09 Jan 2014

Tom Paine wrote: Using the "well" analogy, I would say that we don't actually see clearly that our actions/behavior/conditioning/inner and outer authority is actually 'poisoning' our life and our relationships(world wide).

we actually think that we see clearly and yet the clarity is not enough to bring significant changes in our behaviour and conduct.

is our seeing defective or we are not seeing from right place/field to have the necessary clarity?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Thu, 09 Jan 2014

Tom Paine wrote: Yes, mike, it could be that all the issues(involved in conflict) are not understood...

or could it be that strength of entity that understands is being misjudged?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Thu, 09 Jan 2014

Pandavi X wrote: So, even when we see all this, factually and actually, it continues unabated. Inertia, momentum, fatigue!

or could it be defective/distorted/superficial/already conditioned kind of seeing?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Thu, 09 Jan 2014

mike christani wrote: It could simply be inertia, momentum, even fatigue.

this is the reply that comes up quite easily, but the problem has to have deeper roots as the brain finds enough energy every time to do what the self/"I" is interested in doing.

is the present normal structure and physiology of the brain saving the old pattern of functioning which is controlled by self/"I" and any amount of energy/time spent in understanding/solving this issue is going to go waste as all the activity is happening within the same field/old pattern of functioning?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Thu, 09 Jan 2014

Pandavi X wrote: me speak wrote:

why does the mind almost always go back from the state of "seeing" the conflict creating nature of self" into the old pattern of actions? P : If a train is travelling in one direction at 100 mph and it suddenly attains the power of knowing both its speed and direction, what happens? Does it turn into a butterfly?

the train does not have an "I" which is attached to past, present and future stations. if the existence of this "I" depends upon the movement in specific direction, then the "stopping and changing direction" becomes a more complicated issue, doesn't it?

Topic: Your Take On The "Quote Of The Day" Thu, 09 Jan 2014

Tom Paine wrote: But if one is aware of this barrier/distortion, does knowledge continue to interfere? If you realize something you've been doing is poisoning the well, do you continue to do it?

your above questions can be answered only when the reply to a pending question is clearly understood :

me speak wrote:

why does the mind almost always go back from the state of "seeing" the conflict creating nature of self" into the old pattern of actions? your input on this, please.

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