Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Can justice be enforced from outside?

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Wed, 19 Aug 2009 #1
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 162 posts in this forum Offline

Sense of justice and fair play are just the characteristics of a natural or normal psychological state. Without trying to understand that, it may be futile to bring justice through persuasion or legislation.

Bringing order in society through the system of justice is just another fad of the prevalent psychological state. Only those who have gone through the hopes, ordeals and despairs of the system may perhaps know the fallacy of it. What people may fail to understand is that it is the same psyche that causes injustice, also tries to subvert or fail the justice mechanism. If justice system was even half efficient as promised in developing countries, perhaps poverty wouldn't have reached the present alarming levels.

Following is an extract from an interview of Amartya Sen, wherein he talks about justice.

Amartya Sen: Mainly it's the face of injustice we see in our day to day life that makes us feel what we can do to make things better from the point of view of justice. If I walked around in India or any other country today and were not invaded by a sense of injustice, then there is something to be explained there. There is nothing to be explained about why one is invaded by a sense of injustice because it is there. So much inequality. So much lack of freedom, tyranny and denial of liberty on one side and inequality and deprivation, and denial of substantive opportunity on the other.

The question still remains, why great men still prefer intellectual solutions endlessly, rather than improvement in the Psychological State of Mankind ?

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Wed, 19 Aug 2009 #2
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 36 posts in this forum Offline

Prasanna P wrote:
The question still remains, why great men still prefer intellectual solutions endlessly, rather than improvement in the Psychological State of Mankind ?
Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Wed, 19 Aug 2009 #3
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 36 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Prasanna, very good point you have raised.From a standpoint of spiritual or religious enquiry, these intellectuals are doing their "prarbdha-Karma" i.e. what is ordained in their Nature To Be:Restless"do-gooder" activity.You can take various examples of bloated egoism paraded-from Mothetr Theresa,Princess Diana,et al.MrAmrtya Sen is an acknowledged authority on Global Social Justice through economic policies.I read his recent book and it had good review on THE ECONOMIST.. He is also a nobel laureate on Economics. He belongs to the the Scandinavian variety of concrete-type -Socialism of Gunannr Myrdal&Co. They have been encouraged in India by the VK Krishna ;Menon, Nehru and other politicians.Let them try what they can... but the collective river of human consciousness will remain the same, undisturbed, flowing mightily and dangerously unless individuals like you and me step out of this trap.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Wed, 19 Aug 2009 #4
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 36 posts in this forum Offline

"Why women/men want to play GOD? " would be a proper question here.In his latest book,THE IDEA OF JUSTICE(by Amartya Sen:Belknap Press,496 pages,Allen lane-)Mr Sen elaborates economic reasoning with elements and measurements of human well-being.While the American Philosopher John Rawls concentrated on ideallly just institutions, Mr Sen concentrates on peoples well-being(freedom from hunger, disease, indignity , discrimination and lack of opportunities) and wants well-being of people to be the concern of democratic institutions.Economists dealt mainly with human motivation,rationality and well-being.People are not purely self-interested.They care for others and observe social norms.Well-being, has no single measure and is not inscrutable to others.Its elements are many and do not boil down to"utility" or some cah-value-equivalent.One does not seek always the least-cost to given ends.His book is a great work, may be relevant to India.But as Prasanna points out here, any solution, however intellectual,academic, coming from the clouds are not going to solve human problems.Drought stricken,impoverished poor in the world want real rain, not clouds, real grains to grow and eat, not theoretical words from politicians and dried Economists.Relaity is so different from theories.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Thu, 20 Aug 2009 #5
Thumb_avatar Monic Devi United States 17 posts in this forum Offline

Prasanna P wrote:
The question still remains, why great men still prefer intellectual solutions endlessly, rather than improvement in the Psychological State of Mankind ?

Because it brings power and wealth.

The question is contradictory. A great man is a wise man. A wise man has a holistic perception and will not be caught in the narrowness of intellectualizing human suffering.

Therefore the question should be " why men still prefer intellectual solutions.....?

the superficiality of existence is thriving

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Thu, 20 Aug 2009 #6
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 162 posts in this forum Offline

Monic Devi wrote:
Therefore the question should be " why men still prefer intellectual solutions.....?

Thanks Monic, You're right.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Fri, 28 Aug 2009 #7
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 162 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Monic, Can we proceed further ? I think the only method of communication between people is through words, which is called intellectual. Therefore, it may be better to say that level or quality of that intellectual solution has to change or improve. Can you throw some light on this ?

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Thu, 10 Sep 2009 #8
Thumb_avatar Monic Devi United States 17 posts in this forum Offline

Prasanna P wrote:
Hi Monic, Can we proceed further ? I think the only method of communication between people is through words, which is called intellectual. Therefore, it may be better to say that level or quality of that intellectual solution has to change or improve. Can you throw some light on this ?

Aside from the language, don't you think there has to be fundamental change in the structure of the individual brain ? No matter how educated we are, or what noble language we use, our brain function has not changed much. You may preach a nice , juicy sermon to me, but that fabric of language is quite transparent and weak now. Any reasonable human can see through that. So perhpas what we are looking for is not some refined language, for that we have plenty of; a need for profound change.

the superficiality of existence is thriving

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Thu, 10 Sep 2009 #9
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 162 posts in this forum Offline

The structure of the brain is a biological one and perhaps it can't be changed at all. Nor there may be a necessity for it. Just because K said this somewhere, should we also parrot him ? He himself repeatedly warned against it often.

Please forgive me. I have no intention of any preaching a juicy sermon to any one. Are you also becoming like the many, who prefer to shoot the messenger, rather than replying to the message. Never never agree with any one, but put down your points. To bring that profound change, we can only exchange words and what else can we do ? Tell me, is there any other way out ?

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Thu, 10 Sep 2009 #10
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 97 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Prasanna P wrote:
are just the characteristics of a natural or normal psychological state

Uh, no, they are a desperate and insane attempt to bring reality into compliance with our expectations. They are a projected "what should be" as a reaction to reality/"what is".

This post was last updated by Randal Shacklett (account deleted) Wed, 23 Sep 2009.

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Fri, 11 Sep 2009 #11
Thumb_avatar Monic Devi United States 17 posts in this forum Offline

Prasanna P wrote:
The structure of the brain is a biological one and perhaps it can't be changed at all

If there is no change in the brain that how does one explain the fundamentals of evolution.

Prasanna P wrote:
Please forgive me. I have no intention of any preaching a juicy sermon to any one. Are you also becoming like the many, who prefer to shoot the messenger, rather than replying to the message. Never never agree with any one, but put down your points. To bring that profound change, we can only exchange words and what else can we do ? Tell me, is there any other way out ?

Prasanna, ?Preaching a juicy sermon? was not directed at you but rather those holding the authoritative positions in society.

At this point there is no way out. Humankind is facing total annihilation. The process is only delayed but cannot be stopped.

This is not a cynical view, just a clear one.

the superficiality of existence is thriving

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Sun, 13 Sep 2009 #12
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 162 posts in this forum Offline

Monic Devi wrote:
If there is no change in the brain that how does one explain the fundamentals of evolution.

According to me, basic features, concepts and limitations of perception and responses of the human brain have qualitatively remained the same, albeit their volume and capacity may have grown during the evolutionary chain.

However, involuntary over usage and over dependence on the particular faculty of memory, leading to involuntary thinking, is that which is the problem.

At this point there is no way out. Humankind is facing total annihilation. The process is only delayed but cannot be stopped. This is not a cynical view, just a clear one. >

I respect your clear views on it. Yet, have you ever wondered, how K's teachings kindled hopes in so many people, despite the world's situation has remained the same or even worsened ?

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Mon, 14 Sep 2009 #13
Thumb_avatar Monic Devi United States 17 posts in this forum Offline

Prasanna P wrote:
Yet, have you ever wondered, how K's teachings kindled hopes in so many people, despite the world's situation has remained the same or even worsened ?

no I have not wondered.
Now that you mention it , as memory recalls during past travels, certain areas of the world there has been greater change than others. In my direct perception of this immediate environment, it is not so. A study of the past up to the present , one can conclude the condition has deteriorated quite a bit.
For many centuries, a great deal has been written about change within the human consciousness. It is one thing to hope, read and discuss and another to reach within the core for fundamental change.

the superficiality of existence is thriving

This post was last updated by Monic Devi Mon, 14 Sep 2009.

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Mon, 14 Sep 2009 #14
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 26 posts in this forum Offline

Monic,

Well, then, the question is--the first question is--why hasn't there been any change?

max

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Tue, 15 Sep 2009 #15
Thumb_avatar Monic Devi United States 17 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Monic,
Well, then, the question is--the first question is--why hasn't there been any change?

Monic Devi wrote:
Because it brings power and wealth.
The question is contradictory. A great man is a wise man. A wise man has a holistic perception and will not be caught in the narrowness of intellectualizing human suffering.
Therefore the question should be " why men still prefer intellectual solutions.....?

Max, the initial question was previously addressed.

the superficiality of existence is thriving

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Tue, 15 Sep 2009 #16
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 26 posts in this forum Offline

Monic,

No, I don't think so. If the desire for power and wealth is such a mistake, and if this and other like mistakes are leading humanity down a path that will end in destruction, why can't our influential men in the world understand this? Al Gore writes almost panicky prose about the environment. You mean he never considers the problems we talk about here on Kinfonet?

Granted that 99.99% of people are interested mainly in pleasure. Aren't there some men in influential positions that can gently suggest to all that there might be another way? Where are they?

max

This post was last updated by max greene Tue, 15 Sep 2009.

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Tue, 15 Sep 2009 #17
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 43 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Aren't there some men in influential positions that can gently suggest to all that there might be another way? Where are they?

I seriously doubt that anyone in an 'influential position' has any interest at all in truly deep change.

People in those positions have been nurtured by the system (society), approved of by the system - they are dependent upon the system, conditioned by it, and important within it. Is someone in that case then going to bite the very hand that feeds him/her, by rattling the system - by insisting there 'might be another way'? Too much to lose, and society covers all its bases very well. One must be highly educated within the system to have any credence at all there, and the mere fact of that education/conditioning negates all real doubt about what one is such a success within! A vicious circle!

Don't forget, K was always outside the approval of the system - he never did fit in as a 'good student'. That was his blessing when all is said and done!

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Tue, 15 Sep 2009 #18
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 26 posts in this forum Offline

Pretty discouraging, Patricia. There's only one thing we can do: worry.

max

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Wed, 16 Sep 2009 #19
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 162 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Granted that 99.99% of people are interested mainly in pleasure. Aren't there some men in influential positions that can gently suggest to all that there might be another way? Where are they?

In this world, I think, influential positions come only with wealth, power and and popularity in the order of their strength. Initially, the powerful ones use the rule book to stay in power, then they begin to amend the rule book to stay in power.

Btw Max, have you seen my 'hierarchy of intelligence' in my TFI ?

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Wed, 16 Sep 2009 #20
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 162 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
I seriously doubt that anyone in an 'influential position' has any interest at all in truly deep change.>

Patricia, you have rightly said it. In other words people with concern, generally don't rise to become influential at all. Even the unmatched concern of K, didn't perhaps make him influential among those in power.

People in those positions have been nurtured by the system (society), approved of by the system - they are dependent upon the system, conditioned by it, and important within it. Is someone in that case then going to bite the very hand that feeds him/her, by rattling the system - by insisting there 'might be another way'? Too much to lose, and society covers all its bases very well.>

True.

One must be highly educated within the system to have any credence at all there, and the mere fact of that education/conditioning negates all real doubt about what one is such a success within! A vicious circle! >

I think one must be highly courageous rather than highly educated, to rise to power and influence. All over the world, one can see that the majority of the people in power are less educated and more courageous. Generally they become corrupt afterwards to remain in power. Barring exceptions, the highly educated, believe that their true achievements are reflected in bagging some state awards, and pamper the politicians for it. This is common in India.

Don't forget, K was always outside the approval of the system - he never did fit in as a 'good student'. That was his blessing when all is said and done! >

Yes.

In this scenario, one can observe that the rich and powerful are happy status quoists, and the poor though desperately seeking change can't afford to bring about. It is only
the middle class who can try to understand K and do something about it. It is the psychological level I am talking, and of course it nearly reflects the economic standards also, though not always and accurately.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Wed, 16 Sep 2009 #21
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 162 posts in this forum Offline

Monic Devi wrote:
Therefore the question should be " why men still prefer intellectual solutions.....?

Monic, your question is very relevant. The problem is intellectual, though created by a flaw in intelligence. Since, the only channel of communication between human beings is that of the intellect or knowledge. So intellectual solution is unavoidable. However, mankind can't get submerged in the intellect or knowledge.

So intellect is essential, but has to be minimal and implementable, so that it can help the intelligence in the listener or receiver, to change or transform itself. What do you think, Monic and Max ?

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Wed, 16 Sep 2009 #22
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 43 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Pretty discouraging, Patricia. There's only one thing we can do: worry.

Dear Max - worry is useless! It will only harm and dull the sharpness of the brain.

The only thing one can do is see the fact of what is going on and allow that fact to act.

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Wed, 16 Sep 2009 #23
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 26 posts in this forum Offline

"The only thing one can do is see the fact of what is going on and allow that fact to act."

K said that observation itself is the action. If there is any delay, any gap, action will be based on memory and image, and except in the technical field, this action based on thought is disastrous. (the last sentence is mine.)

max

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Thu, 17 Sep 2009 #24
Thumb_jan09_012 Peter Stephens Australia 19 posts in this forum Offline

Let's say the clear, uninterrupted, unhesitant observation and complete action is not taking place. I understand that, can discuss the ideal, and see the truth of it. You can say to me, see the fact and so on, but this lack of seeing, incorrect seeing, false seeing, is the point isn't it? Why expect there is an ability for the confused see-er to see? There is injustice.

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Thu, 17 Sep 2009 #25
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 97 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
K said that observation itself is the action

Because clear observation is the only way for me to see when I am being childish and immature in my dealings with other people (relationship). But it is only clear, as you mention, in the immediate moment it is in existance. After it is imprinted and encoded and enterpreted and stored for future reference, it is not so clear anymore.

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Thu, 17 Sep 2009 #26
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 26 posts in this forum Offline

"After it is imprinted and encoded and enterpreted and stored for future reference, it is not so clear anymore."

Exactly. When a present event is stored and imprinted to be recalled later, it can be brought back (thinking) only as an image. Action based on this image will always be distorted due to our prejudices, conditioning, etc. With time the image, recalled again and again, becomes more and more distorted.

We can get away with acting on images in the technical field, but even there action that springs from observation will lead to creativity and insight. Lesson: Use observation as much as possible and reserve thinking for the very routine.

max

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