Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
Question authority | moderated by Randal Shacklett (account deleted)

Questioning authority

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Wed, 02 Sep 2009 #1
Thumb_avatar Clive Bunnett Australia 17 posts in this forum Offline

When questioning authority, does that mean that we reject it?

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Wed, 02 Sep 2009 #2
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Clive Bunnett wrote:
When questioning authority, does that mean that we reject it?

Well, rejection seems to be the same phenomenon as acceptance. It is another manifestation of the "like-dislike" system K called 'choice". Isn't rejection, itself, a manifestation of our reliance on authority? The false authority of our belief system?

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009 #3
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 32 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Bunnett wrote:
When questioning authority, does that mean that we reject it?

If you reject or accept anything, the questioning has stopped,isn't that so?

My understanding about it is like this--The answer to this Question can not be given in words because the questioning implies a state of mind that is ever moving.It is recieving input, watching everything attentively, not accumulating anything psychologically.

By rejecting or accepting you can not break free of the system.Questioning mind is very alive and is always in a state of dissatisfaction,Sir.That flame of dissatisfaction actually frees you from authority .There is no need for rejection or acceptance as a different kind of sensitivity and intelligence is operating.

Regards.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009 #4
Thumb_avatar Clive Bunnett Australia 17 posts in this forum Offline

What is the authority we question..isn't it the whole of our experience?

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009 #5
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 51 posts in this forum Offline

What is behind questioning? It appears to me that an entity is required to feel dissatisfaction and to question. Is this entity the psychological "I," the Self? It cannot be the physical organism itself, which is a machine.

I would say that dissatisfaction and questioning die when the Self dies. Then there is only the seeing of what is, from one instant to the next, nothing to question.

What is your view of the matter?

max

This post was last updated by max greene Fri, 04 Sep 2009.

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009 #6
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Clive Bunnett wrote:
What is the authority we question

What authority, do we rely on, minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day? The authority of "choice", no?

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009 #7
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
It cannot be the physical organism itself, which is a machine

Implication being, that the mind, is NOT a machine/automatic.
Why do you imply that?

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009 #8
Thumb_cow_boy_1 Krishna Kumar India 2 posts in this forum Offline

I think one has to reject authority when one seeks truth. All authorities are stumbling blocks on the path of self realization. This begins right from our birth. The parents think and act on behalf of the child. The child is denied the opportunity to become the real person.

When one go for education, teachers exert authority, conditioning our mind in different ways.

Finally the authority of the state is all pervasive. It makes us to do things we never really wanted to do.

But how can one go beyond all such authorities and yet lead a peaceful life? That is a question.....

A fellow traveller to those who seek 'The Truth"

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009 #9
Thumb_avatar Clive Bunnett Australia 17 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
What is behind questioning?

Isn't this questioning the question? It is the nature of learning to question, no?

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009 #10
Thumb_avatar Clive Bunnett Australia 17 posts in this forum Offline

Randal Shacklett wrote:
What authority, do we rely on, minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day? The authority of "choice", no?

Yes. What is choice? Psychologically, can one choose to be other that what one is from minute to minute? To have a choice means to live in a world of 'opposites' doesn't it? I am this but I want to be that....the world of should and shouldn't?

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009 #11
Thumb_avatar Clive Bunnett Australia 17 posts in this forum Offline

Krishna Kumar wrote:
I think one has to reject authority when one seeks truth. All authorities are stumbling blocks on the path of self realization. This begins right from our birth. The parents think and act on behalf of the child. The child is denied the opportunity to become the real person.
When one go for education, teachers exert authority, conditioning our mind in different ways.
Finally the authority of the state is all pervasive. It makes us to do things we never really wanted to do.
But how can one go beyond all such authorities and yet lead a peaceful life? That is a question.....

Is there an entity separate that can reject authority? Isn't the nature of the mind authority against authority..i.e. fragmentation?

Your question is a right one to see this is it not?

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009 #12
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 51 posts in this forum Offline

Randal,

I said, "It cannot be the physical organism itself, which is a machine."

You say, "Implication being, that the mind, is NOT a machine/automatic. Why do you imply that?"

I see the physical organism with its brain/mind as a machine. It has been created, and is therefore caught in time. It will wear out, decay, and be destroyed in one way or another, just as any machine will be. But just as is true with any machine, it can't act on its own--it has to be set in motion. The physical organism is set in motion by life, and life is of the moment, is not a machine--and has no questions to ask! Questioning is of the Self.

max

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Sat, 05 Sep 2009 #13
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Clive Bunnett wrote:
Yes. What is choice? Psychologically, can one choose to be other that what one is from minute to minute?

"choice", in a Krishnamurti discussion forum, means an automatic, conditioning based response. Like-dislike, good-bad, right-wrong, and so forth. The corridor of opposites.

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Sat, 05 Sep 2009 #14
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
caught in time

Krishnamurti was not talking about that kind of time. You are talking about cronological, time of the watch, type of time. Krishnamurti was saying that thought, which is past, creates an illusory hopeful future, and tries to become that illusory future. Time. So, is everything you said, based on a misinterpretation, still valid?

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Sat, 05 Sep 2009 #15
Thumb_avatar Clive Bunnett Australia 17 posts in this forum Offline

Randal Shacklett wrote:
The corridor of opposites.

hi randal

Yes, this is a great description of what it means to be trapped in the world of thought. One can see as soon as one looks that thought creates opposites at every turn where the self is concerned. That is the fact is it not? So what is one to do?

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Sat, 05 Sep 2009 #16
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 51 posts in this forum Offline

Randal,

Yes, it is. Everything that has been created is obviously not beyond time however defined, as it is in the process of ageing and disintegration from the moment it is created.

max

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Sat, 05 Sep 2009 #17
Thumb_cow_boy_1 Krishna Kumar India 2 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Max and Randal,

"Everything that has been created is obviously not beyond time..." Does that include what we call soul? Has the soul been created? Has soul too has to undergo "ageing and disintegration"?
After all, is there really anything that can be called soul? What after death? Nothing?
To the best of my knowledge, this is a question J K has deliberately left unanswered.. What do you say?

A fellow traveller to those who seek 'The Truth"

This post was last updated by Krishna Kumar Sat, 05 Sep 2009.

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Sat, 05 Sep 2009 #18
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
not beyond time however defined

Sorry max, but that is a non-issue. Aging, getting old and decaying, is not a topic for a Krishnamurti discussion. Again, time of day, is not what K was refering to.

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Sat, 05 Sep 2009 #19
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishna Kumar wrote:
What do you say?

I have nothing to say. Speculation is not my bag.

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Sat, 05 Sep 2009 #20
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Clive Bunnett wrote:
So what is one to do?

Personally, I like to look at girls. Other than that, why do we want to do anything? What are we/you looking for?

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Sat, 05 Sep 2009 #21
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 51 posts in this forum Offline

Randal,

The illusions that you refer to--they, too, since they have been created, are caught in time. Only now is outside of time.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Sat, 05 Sep 2009.

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Sun, 06 Sep 2009 #22
Thumb_avatar Clive Bunnett Australia 17 posts in this forum Offline

<<Personally, I like to look at girls. Other than that, why do we want to do anything? What are we/you looking for?>>

Is it understanding or just playing with the trivial?

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Sun, 06 Sep 2009 #23
Thumb_henry Thérèse Doyle Okamoto United States 29 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Bunnett wrote:
When questioning authority, does that mean that we reject

even when we submit to authority doesnt mean that we dont question it, much less accept it, unless you define submission as acceptance, which would go along with JKs resistance to resistance, and yet, how can one accept the unacceptable?

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

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Sun, 06 Sep 2009 #24
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Clive Bunnett wrote:
Is it understanding or just playing with the trivial?

Maybe a little of both. When you ask "what is one to do?", aren't you playing with the trivial?

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Sun, 06 Sep 2009 #25
Thumb_avatar Clive Bunnett Australia 17 posts in this forum Offline

<>

It is a genuine question that arises, surely. I believe even K asked it..

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Wed, 09 Sep 2009 #26
Thumb_avatar Clive Bunnett Australia 17 posts in this forum Offline

K: Whatever effort the mind makes to break down its own vicious circle of ignorance must further aid the continuance of ignorance. If one does not understand the whole process of ignorance, and merely makes an effort to get rid of it, thought is still acting within the circle of ignorance.

So what is one to do, discerning that whatever action, whatever effort one makes only strengthens ignorance? The very desire to break through the circle of ignorance is still part of ignorance. Then what is one to do?

Now, is this an all-important, vital question to you? If it is, then you will see that there is no direct, positive answer. For positive answers can only bring about further effort, which but strengthens the process of ignorance. So there is only a negative approach, which is to be integrally aware of the process of fear or ignorance. This awareness is not an effort to overcome, to destroy or to find a substitute, but is a stillness of neither acceptance nor denial, an integral quietness of no choice. This awareness breaks the circle of ignorance from within, as it were, without strengthening it

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Thu, 10 Sep 2009 #27
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 51 posts in this forum Offline

Clive,

"So what is one to do, discerning that whatever action, whatever effort one makes only strengthens ignorance?"

This seems to be forgotten by a lot of the participants in these forums. Psychologically, all effort is a waste of energy.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Thu, 10 Sep 2009.

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Thu, 10 Sep 2009 #28
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Clive Bunnett wrote:
It is a genuine question that arises, surely. I believe even K asked it..

But you see Clive, the difference is, when K asks it, he has the passion of a lifetime of asking it. When you or I ask it, we are asking because we want someone to tell us the answer. Do we see the difference? K is not expecting an answer.

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Thu, 10 Sep 2009 #29
Thumb_avatar Clive Bunnett Australia 17 posts in this forum Offline

hi randal

Are you expecting someone to tell you the answer? That would be totally foolish wouldn't it? It is a 'fundamental' question isn't it? One that arises from thought but which thought can now realise it cannot answer? That is the whole point of inquiry isn't it? What is the state of mind of one asking such a question in such a situation? K asked the question as one friend to another going into it together didn't he? Or was that just a manner of speaking for you? Why do you think K was 'special'?

This post was last updated by Clive Bunnett Thu, 10 Sep 2009.

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Thu, 10 Sep 2009 #30
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Clive Bunnett wrote:
K asked the question as one friend to another going into it together didn't he

What is one to do? I ask myself, not someone else. I even see that any answer I give is the response of someone else. What is one to do?

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